Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Zachowon]

I like having a world where a mafia basically runs everything outside the republic. Hell the Hutts may be incovled in all of this.

Episodic may not be liked at much by normal people going into the series..

You can still do bad guy of the week, as well as keep an overall badguy

 

[Husky_Khan]

Nihil sounds extremely generic though half of the art designs are passably cool. I'm 98.7% sure the term Nihil has been already used extensively in fictional properties, including ones owned by Disney.

And I'm not talking about Darth Nihilus (may he rest in peace) either. I think Annihilus from the ol Marvel universe used that term either for himself or his cronies.

Still maximum creativity for sure.

Dunno about the Space Triffids. We will see I guess. It all looks pretty meh to me because the best features of the Star Wars galaxy is the competition between the Light and Dark and good versus evil and Jedi vs. Sith.

This is like monster of the week stuff. No one cares about random pirate or alien factions. They can't be that serious if the Republic has coexisted with them since forever. And whose going to be the rival to the Jedi Order if not Dark Jedi variations? Will there be a conflict of philosophy and ideology and teachings to go with the physical threat from the Space Triffids or Nihil etc?

This is Star Wars, not Warhammer 40K or Star Trek. If the Jedi are going to be a major theme, they'll probably need a major foil.

The Yuuzhang Vong of the New Jedi Order were an exception and it was still a battle of good v. Evil and the Vong were anti-jeedai and worked out well being preplanned and coming from a whole different galaxy and everything. But you can't keep throwing extra galactic alien empires as main adversaries.

 

[Zachowon]

Nihil sounds extremely generic though half of the art designs are passably cool. I'm 98.7% sure the term Nihil has been already used extensively in fictional properties, including ones owned by Disney.

And I'm not talking about Darth Nihilus (may he rest in peace) either. I think Annihilus from the ol Marvel universe used that term either for himself or his cronies.

Still maximum creativity for sure.

Dunno about the Space Triffids. We will see I guess. It all looks pretty meh to me because the best features of the Star Wars galaxy is the competition between the Light and Dark and good versus evil and Jedi vs. Sith.

This is like monster of the week stuff. No one cares about random pirate or alien factions. They can't be that serious if the Republic has coexisted with them since forever. And whose going to be the rival to the Jedi Order if not Dark Jedi variations? Will there be a conflict of philosophy and ideology and teachings to go with the physical threat from the Space Triffids or Nihil etc?

This is Star Wars, not Warhammer 40K or Star Trek. If the Jedi are going to be a major theme, they'll probably need a major foil.

The Yuuzhang Vong of the New Jedi Order were an exception and it was still a battle of good v. Evil and the Vong were anti-jeedai and worked out well being preplanned and coming from a whole different galaxy and everything. But you can't keep throwing extra galactic alien empires as main adversaries.

Well the time frame of this era is the time of the rule of two so.

I doubt we will have major jedi vs sith fights.

Honety I like my Star wars to focus on more then Jedi and sith or good and evil.

Which is why I love the Mando

 

[Deleted member 88]

Nihil sounds extremely generic though half of the art designs are passably cool. I'm 98.7% sure the term Nihil has been already used extensively in fictional properties, including ones owned by Disney.

And I'm not talking about Darth Nihilus (may he rest in peace) either. I think Annihilus from the ol Marvel universe used that term either for himself or his cronies.

Still maximum creativity for sure.

Dunno about the Space Triffids. We will see I guess. It all looks pretty meh to me because the best features of the Star Wars galaxy is the competition between the Light and Dark and good versus evil and Jedi vs. Sith.

This is like monster of the week stuff. No one cares about random pirate or alien factions. They can't be that serious if the Republic has coexisted with them since forever. And whose going to be the rival to the Jedi Order if not Dark Jedi variations? Will there be a conflict of philosophy and ideology and teachings to go with the physical threat from the Space Triffids or Nihil etc?

This is Star Wars, not Warhammer 40K or Star Trek. If the Jedi are going to be a major theme, they'll probably need a major foil.

The Yuuzhang Vong of the New Jedi Order were an exception and it was still a battle of good v. Evil and the Vong were anti-jeedai and worked out well being preplanned and coming from a whole different galaxy and everything. But you can't keep throwing extra galactic alien empires as main adversaries.

That's not true? The Vong were major villains from a thematic and philosophical angle.

They forced the Jedi to grapple with questions like their role in the galaxy, the limits of mercy, and the actual breadth of the force. And incorporate into their worldview a better understanding of the force.

The Vong by not being visible in the force force the Jedi to question what the force is, what it means, and how it relates to Sapient life. And whether or not they owe anything outside of it(and their own paradigm) mercy.

The heart of the series-is probably the Alpha Red project and the Jedi's opposition to it.

They come to realize-or rather they are made to realize that the Vong do have a role to play and aren't merely an alien menace to destroy.

 

[Skallagrim]

That's way too merciful towards the tasteless word salad that Chuck Wendig disingenuously calls 'writing'.

On that particilar note, and as I already mentioned elsewhere: the first episode of The Mandalorian season 2 made me outright like -- and hope to see more of -- a character from the Aftermath books (which I didn't enjoy at all). That's a major achievement.

It's been mentioned that the way that character relates his backstory doesn't fit with those books, either. Maybe he's lying a bit. But.... there is the possibility (and this is really just my fond wish that it be so) that they're sort of soft-retconning details of the Aftermath books out of canonicity. Basically treating them like Jedi Prince or Dark Empire in the old EU: never decanonised, but rarely referenced in detail, and a lot of the particulars supplanted by a... newer version of events.

At the very least, the series is re-interpreting the assumption that the Empire just collapsed a year after Endor, with the Republic winning and the remaining die-hard Imps fleeing into exile to become the First Order. We see Imperials operating still, by 9 ABY, and I really hope it's going to turn out they're not firmly tied to the First Order. Retconning the whole "the war ended in 5 ABY" nonsense would be great. Give us a nice, messy decade or so of the fledgling New Republic dealing with all sorts of post-Imperial splinter factions! Give us a chaotic warlord period!

The Aftermath books pretty much killed all the potential for that, and I'd love it if The Mandalorian just quietly nudges those books aside a little bit and resurrects that potential.

I like having a world where a mafia basically runs everything outside the republic. Hell the Hutts may be incovled in all of this.

Very much agreed, and ties in well with what I said above. A period of chaotic outlawry after the Empire falls and before the New Republic can find its footing makes for a great story setting. It also makes good sense, from a historical angle.

 

[Husky_Khan]

That's not true? The Vong were major villains from a thematic and philosophical angle.

They forced the Jedi to grapple with questions like their role in the galaxy, the limits of mercy, and the actual breadth of the force. And incorporate into their worldview a better understanding of the force.

The Vong by not being visible in the force force the Jedi to question what the force is, what it means, and how it relates to Sapient life. And whether or not they owe anything outside of it(and their own paradigm) mercy.

The heart of the series-is probably the Alpha Red project and the Jedi's opposition to it.

They come to realize-or rather they are made to realize that the Vong do have a role to play and aren't merely an alien menace to destroy.

I'm typing off of my mobile but my post was meaning to agree with you in the Vong were being a good foil in all mannerisms.

My bad

 

[Deleted member 88]

The Vong's role in the SW mythos and their thematic importance requires reading a 19 book series, that a lot of people dropped at one point or another. So its understandable why they are so misunderstood.

 

[Battlegrinder]

So, a thought occurred to me regarding Han Solo's "throw Phasma into the trash compactor" scene in TFA. In retrospec, that scene makes Han an incredibly awful person. He has no particular grudge with Phasma, he has no reason to be vengeful toward the empire for his trip into a trash compactor, since they're not directly responsible for that, and it's not even some kind of ironic punishment thing, because Phasma doesn't go around tossing people into trash compactors. It's just a bit of hollow "hey, hey, hey, remember that thing from the other movies?", but it has some serious consequences for Han's character. Throwing someone into a trash compactor is essentially condemning a helpless opponent them to be slowly, painfully crushed to death, but only after they have several minutes to contemplate what's going to happen to them and how they can't escape (because if Han thought she was likely to escape and warn the empire about him and Finn being there, he wouldn't have taken that risk).....I don't like that TFA made Han into the sort of person that does that, let alone the sort of person that does that to random mooks.

 

[Skallagrim]

It's just a bit of hollow "hey, hey, hey, remember that thing from the other movies?"

The essential problem of J.J. Abrams, right there. The man has no ideas and no vision. He just rips off elements of the successes other, better film-makers. And he does so without caring (or apparently grasping) why those elements worked so well in those other films.

It's unintentionally chronicled in The Art of The Force Awakens, which gives quite a bit of insight into the development of ideas. There are two threads to be discerned. The first is that every single alteration Abrams suggests is invariably something that means "let's make this more like ANH". This starts as soon as he becoms involved, and does not stop until he turns the film into "a beat-by-beat repetition of ANH... but EVERYTHING IS BIGGER NOW". The second thread is that when it comes to creative choices, Abrams picks pieces of art he likes, and says "let's put that in, it looks cool"... without ever having a clue as to how it would fit in.

Characters do thins because they did them in ANH, not because those things make sense. Why is that bit with the trash compactor there? There was a trash compactor in ANH. Why is Han a cynical smuggler again? He was a cynical smuggler in ANH. Why is Jakku a desert planet (when it wasn't in the intial plans)? Because Tatooine was a desert planet. Why does BB-8 belong to Poe, when the droid was intially slated to accompany (proto-)Rey from the start? Because this was, BB-8 can carry secret Resistance plans, and Rey can find him. Because that's how R2 and Luke were introduced in ANH!

 

[CarlManvers2019]

The essential problem of J.J. Abrams, right there. The man has no ideas and no vision. He just rips off elements of the successes other, better film-makers. And he does so without caring (or apparently grasping) why those elements worked so well in those other films.

It's unintentionally chronicled in The Art of The Force Awakens, which gives quite a bit of insight into the development of ideas. There are two threads to be discerned. The first is that every single alteration Abrams suggests is invariably something that means "let's make this more like ANH". This starts as soon as he becoms involved, and does not stop until he turns the film into "a beat-by-beat repetition of ANH... but EVERYTHING IS BIGGER NOW". The second thread is that when it comes to creative choices, Abrams picks pieces of art he likes, and says "let's put that in, it looks cool"... without ever having a clue as to how it would fit in.

Characters do thins because they did them in ANH, not because those things make sense. Why is that bit with the trash compactor there? There was a trash compactor in ANH. Why is Han a cynical smuggler again? He was a cynical smuggler in ANH. Why is Jakku a desert planet (when it wasn't in the intial plans)? Because Tatooine was a desert planet. Why does BB-8 belong to Poe, when the droid was intially slated to accompany (proto-)Rey from the start? Because this was, BB-8 can carry secret Resistance plans, and Rey can find him. Because that's how R2 and Luke were introduced in ANH!

Also, ever heard of “Legacies” or “Passing the torch”?

Almost cheap and has to be done right, but it’s easier if you live in someone’s shadow instead of trying to face the sun by yourself

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

So they ripped off Abeloth and the Vong and merged them together with the Diversity alliance? Holy crap.

the vong has a cult following so I can see people being excited for that, but Abeloth they are using her? Abeloth was the death note that pretty much said the EU was on it's last legs even before disney bought Star Wars.

 

[Skallagrim]

the vong has a cult following so I can see people being excited for that, but Abeloth they are using her? Abeloth was the death note that pretty much said the EU was on it's last legs even before disney bought Star Wars.

They have a track record of making pretty poor choices as to what they rip off. The sequel trilogy gives us the "son of Han and Leia goes bad" idea from LotF, the "Palpatine had a grandkid who becomes a Jedi" idea from Jedi Prince, and the "Palpatine returns to life on a hidden planet and has new superweapons" idea from Dark Empire. If you'd asked people which parts of the EU to crib, they would not have given you those suggestions.

Now, they're going to do "Vong but not interesting" and "discount Abeloth". I'm not surprised.

As far as the EU was concerned: yeah, the "post-Endor" stories had really finished their run by the time The Unifying Force came out. That would have been a great point to put a nice time-skip. Go from there to a version of the Legacy comics, and put little to nothing in between. (Maybe some "smaller adventure" books to wrap up some loose threads in the background, e.g. establishing that Jaina and Jag do end up getting together, and that's where the Fel dynasty comes from.)

Other eras of the EU still had plenty of life in them, though. Whether one likes it is another matter, but something like TCW was successful -- and only got cancelled because of the sale to Disney. (They didn't want a show in their property airing on a competing network.) And if someone wanted to do something new and unrelated to anything else: there was still a huge histoical gap between SW:TOR and Knight Errant.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

The Vong's role in the SW mythos and their thematic importance requires reading a 19 book series, that a lot of people dropped at one point or another. So its understandable why they are so misunderstood.

Agreed it's a quagmire that only a person who can fully read 'The Wheel Of Time' can truly understand.

 

[f1onagher]

Agreed it's a quagmire that only a person who can fully read 'The Wheel Of Time' can truly understand.

I know that I gave up halfway through and skipped to the end.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I have that big, black Star Wars guide ("The New Essential Guide to Characters, Weapons & Technology, Vehicles and Vessels) that had a timeline of the EU and pages on all of the EU characters and the technology of the setting and the ships, and pictures for all it. I thought that the Yuuzhan Vong ships looked very cool, with a very natural, organic aesthetic. The illustrations of the Vong characters made them look hideous. One thing I liked about the Prequels is how they were aesthetically different from the OT. The prequels had this old, beautiful renaissance aesthetic, with curves and more shiny and colorful ships, whereas the OT had more worn down and blocky ships that were cobbled together and the paint is coming off. So I thought that the Yuuzhan Vong ships helped make the EU look very distinct visually.

Reading the timeline and the character pages, it felt like the Yuuzhan Vong story arc was very bleak. It's a long trauma conga line of the heroes constantly losing, with characters dying left and right, and half of the galaxy being wiped out/conquered, and most of Luke's students being massacred by this ridiculously elite Yuuzhan Vong warriors. Chewie and Anakin die, Jaina goes evil... I think the timeline ended with Courscant being genocided and the Yuuzhan Vong building giant statues on it. Imagine Warhammer 40k, but rather than the setting being in stasis where the empire is never collapsing, that stasis is removed.

I liked the initial direction of the EU, with the Empire splintering off into different Warlord states, and the heroes gradually rebuilding the New Republic. It felt optimistic, and we got to go on fun new adventures with the characters. But then after a while, it feels like it's starting to drag on, like the heroes are defeating all of these warlords but the galaxy isn't getting better and new threats are constantly popping up to replace the old ones... and then at the end it's all for nothing as New Republic is totalled and the bad guys win. Or maybe the good guys did win but I'd imagine that they would have had to use an asspull or something to pull out of that, I didn't read that. I guess the only saving grace is that Lando Calrissian was left alone; he still had a happy ending where he had a daughter and there was no drama in his life or anything.

I'd like to think that Star Wars ended after the defeat of Thrawn. They cleaned up the galaxy of warlords and cartel leaders and rebuilt the New Republic and the galaxy entered into a golden age and everyone lived happily ever after.

 

[DarthOne]

I have that big, black Star Wars guide ("The New Essential Guide to Characters, Weapons & Technology, Vehicles and Vessels) that had a timeline of the EU and pages on all of the EU characters and the technology of the setting and the ships, and pictures for all it. I thought that the Yuuzhan Vong ships looked very cool, with a very natural, organic aesthetic. The illustrations of the Vong characters made them look hideous. One thing I liked about the Prequels is how they were aesthetically different from the OT. The prequels had this old, beautiful renaissance aesthetic, with curves and more shiny and colorful ships, whereas the OT had more worn down and blocky ships that were cobbled together and the paint is coming off. So I thought that the Yuuzhan Vong ships helped make the EU look very distinct visually.

Reading the timeline and the character pages, it felt like the Yuuzhan Vong story arc was very bleak. It's a long trauma conga line of the heroes constantly losing, with characters dying left and right, and half of the galaxy being wiped out/conquered, and most of Luke's students being massacred by this ridiculously elite Yuuzhan Vong warriors. Chewie and Anakin die, Jaina goes evil... I think the timeline ended with Courscant being genocided and the Yuuzhan Vong building giant statues on it. Imagine Warhammer 40k, but rather than the setting being in stasis where the empire is never collapsing, that stasis is removed.

I liked the initial direction of the EU, with the Empire splintering off into different Warlord states, and the heroes gradually rebuilding the New Republic. It felt optimistic, and we got to go on fun new adventures with the characters. But then after a while, it feels like it's starting to drag on, like the heroes are defeating all of these warlords but the galaxy isn't getting better and new threats are constantly popping up to replace the old ones... and then at the end it's all for nothing as New Republic is totalled and the bad guys win. Or maybe the good guys did win but I'd imagine that they would have had to use an asspull or something to pull out of that, I didn't read that. I guess the only saving grace is that Lando Calrissian was left alone; he still had a happy ending where he had a daughter and there was no drama in his life or anything.

I'd like to think that Star Wars ended after the defeat of Thrawn. They cleaned up the galaxy of warlords and cartel leaders and rebuilt the New Republic and the galaxy entered into a golden age and everyone lived happily ever after.

I largely agree with you. I think part of the problem with the Warlords era is that it dragged on for too long without enough variation to the stories being told in it. I sort of wish they'd given the immediate era around Endor more attention and diversified the sort of directions the various Imperial Warlords went in with how they governed and their goals after the Empire fell apart. As I think about 90% went for 'The Empire, but smaller' and 'wanted to rule the galaxy'.

I would have liked to see the Warlords adapting with the times a bit more- note that these didn't always have to be the Moffs or whatever Palpatine originally placed in charge. One could easily have them come to a sticky end via local groups who want to do things their own way or Imperial officers who see the writing on the wall and want to get rid of their Stupid Evil boss.

And there's a reason why the Vong was/is so divisive. I think people would have had less problems if the Vong had been handled better or the New Republic was less pants on heads stupid when it came to dealing with them. At least it would have made the idea of the Republic losing more papable to the viewers. I do agree that they should have had a time skip of some sort at some point. If not after the Vong war, then in between it, with maybe some smaller stories focusing on the next generation of Heroes and Heroines starting to come into their own.

 

[Deleted member 88]

People had problems with the Vong mostly due to their aesthetic, not the actual content of the series. As for the warlord era, it was officially pretty much over after 12 ABY. The NR also wasn’t stupid, Borsk was playing politics and Sien Sovv put his faith in a decisive fleet battle. Which never came.


The last campaigns of the war and the possibility of Thrawn’s resurrection conclude it.

Chewie and Anakin die, Jaina goes evil... I think the timeline ended with Courscant being genocided and the Yuuzhan Vong building giant statues on it. Imagine Warhammer 40k, but rather than the setting being in stasis where the empire is never collapsing, that stasis is removed.

Coruscant wasn’t genocided. It was Vongformed.

*Important to remember the Vong were overstretched, facing shamed one rebellions, had lost their best commanders, and their de facto leader was an insane court jester. The Vong were not omnipotent and never depicted as being unstoppable.

By the end of the war the Vong were pretty much doomed to defeat, their manpower reserves were gone, Shimmra had entirely lost his mind, and the NR had developed alpha red.

 

[Husky_Khan]

It would've been neat to see a planned out EU mythology of the post Endor era, perhaps just using the previous Legends crap as a template. They drew plenty of inspiration from the EU already as we saw in Rebels and The Mandalorian and anything is better then the crapfest we got with Aftermath and its one year plunge into the Empire no longer existing.

I think one of the strengths of the Clone Wars EU material and that of the Vong era was that there was actually a major outline everyone was following as opposed to much of the post-Endor EU which was basically various Authors writing up their own miniature continuities with so many limitations and with little regard for what other people were doing. Having a bunch of decent authors following a general outline for fleshing out the later period of the Galactic Civil War would've been awesome and you could've followed the broad strokes that were laid out in Legends and just expand and update and improve upon them.

Would've been cool seeing new versions of those storylines. The early Warlords period where Rogue Squadron was leading the charge in battling Imperial Warlords like Zsinj and Ysanne Isard types (or whatever Disney Canon losers they want to toss in like blue Mas Amedda guy) and then the Thrawn trilogy (though Thrawn was kinda incommunicado at the end of Rebels ) and some sort of version of Dark Empire to provide a suitable capstone to the era and some proper concluding novels exploring an era that was only covered in Star Wars sourcebooks (like how the Empire eventually constricted itself to becoming merely a Remnant and signing the peace treaty).

I'm sure it could all be covered in twenty novels or less, much like the New Jedi Order era.

 

[Skallagrim]

While I agree that planning things out a bit more has its advantages, the chaotic nature of the Bantam era resulted in a lot of different directions and ideas. The issue was that it wasn't very coherent, and had to be fitted into a narrative after the fact. (Which was actually pretty capably done, so kudos for that.) I fear that a planned-out approach often runs the risk of being even more monotonous, which would exacerbate rather than alleviate the particular problem that @DarthOne raised.

Despite some really weird books, I think the Bantam era (which corresponds to the warlord period, concluding with the peace treaty in 19 ABY) is overall a realistic take on the post-Imperial chaos and its various challenges. And @Lord Invictus correctly points out that the warlord struggle is pretty much over by 12 ABY, when Daala's reconstituted fleet is soundly defeated at Yavin. After that, the Remnant is fighting a losing battle, has to withdraw to the fringes of the galaxy, and is reduced to a minor power. It just takes another six years for them to finally accept that they've lost.

The "OH NOES THRAWN IS BACK!!!11!" plot always struck me as somewhat silly. It's even mentioned that "Thrawn was good, but not that good". The idea of his supposed return throwing everybody into a panic is not realistic. (And is an early example of Zahn's increasing tendency to turn Thrawn into an invincible superperson.) Nevertheless, the fact that the plot fails, and things end peacefully is enough to make it all okay. Things are finally in order, fifteen years after Endor. That's a realistic time-frame for a period like that.

Overall, I don't think that judging the whole timeline based on a chronology in a guide-book is really fair. Especially since said judgement contains clear inaccuracies (e.g. "most of Luke's students being massacred "; "Jaina goes evil"). Yes, NJO has some bleak shit in it. Sometimes too much of it for my liking. But just reading an outline does kind of gloss over the crucial fact that it was going somewhere. It was not -- I repeat: NOT -- some 40k-like ultra-grimdark story with an eternal bleakness as the status quo. It went to dark places in order to then ascend back into the light of hope. Whereas we might see the OT films as coming down to personal redemption, the NJO series elevated that concept to a galactic scale. The whole point is that the war seems hopeless at times, and the Vong seem like monsters without redeeming qualities, and there are easy choices that involve moral short-cuts...

...and instead, the morally just path leads to a redemption arc for the entire species.

I really think that Stover and Luceno in particular had such an excellent grasp on the underlying ethics and metaphysics that they managed to really express something amazing in the NJO series. So despite that fact that it has flaws, and the fact tht I would have done certain things very differently... it's not fair to treat it like something it's definitely not.

 

[Deleted member 88]

The Post Endor EU was not nearly as scattershot as people make it out to be. With the post NJO being fairly coordinated if somewhat controversial in the extreme(Denning).

The only real issues where Dark Empire and the Thrawn Trilogy-Veitch and Zahn didn’t get along, or rather Zahn refused to work with Veitch.

Later Bantam stuff like the Black Fleet Trilogy and Hand of Thrawn Duology had a definite chronology established. Even if Zahn again didn’t like what those authors did.

The NJO was extremely well coordinated, important to remember it was supposed to be 29 books, not 19.

As for the GCW-there were the Orinda campaigns we read about in sourcebooks and of course the False Thrawn, but from around 12 ABY to 18 ABY or so-the galactic civil war was a cold peace.

With Daala and Pellaeon leading the Remnant’s last hoorah before the Gavrisom-pellaeon treaty.

While I agree that planning things out a bit more has its advantages, the chaotic nature of the Bantam era resulted in a lot of different directions and ideas. The issue was that it wasn't very coherent, and had to be fitted into a narrative after the fact. (Which was actually pretty capably done, so kudos for that.) I fear that a planned-out approach often runs the risk of being even more monotonous, which would exacerbate rather than alleviate the particular problem that @DarthOne raised.

Despite some really weird books, I think the Bantam era (which corresponds to the warlord period, concluding with the peace treaty in 19 ABY) is overall a realistic take on the post-Imperial chaos and its various challenges. And @Lord Invictus correctly points out that the warlord struggle is pretty much over by 12 ABY, when Daala's reconstituted fleet is soundly defeated at Yavin. After that, the Remnant is fighting a losing battle, has to withdraw to the fringes of the galaxy, and is reduced to a minor power. It just takes another six years for them to finally accept that they've lost.

The "OH NOES THRAWN IS BACK!!!11!" plot always struck me as somewhat silly. It's even mentioned that "Thrawn was good, but not that good". The idea of his supposed return throwing everybody into a panic is not realistic. (And is an early example of Zahn's increasing tendency to turn Thrawn into an invincible superperson.) Nevertheless, the fact that the plot fails, and things end peacefully is enough to make it all okay. Things are finally in order, fifteen years after Endor. That's a realistic time-frame for a period like that.

Overall, I don't think that judging the whole timeline based on a chronology in a guide-book is really fair. Especially since said judgement contains clear inaccuracies (e.g. "most of Luke's students being massacred "; "Jaina goes evil"). Yes, NJO has some bleak shit in it. Sometimes too much of it for my liking. But just reading an outline does kind of gloss over the crucial fact that it was going somewhere. It was not -- I repeat: NOT -- some 40k-like ultra-grimdark story with an eternal bleakness as the status quo. It went to dark places in order to then ascend back into the light of hope. Whereas we might see the OT films as coming down to personal redemption, the NJO series elevated that concept to a galactic scale. The whole point is that the war seems hopeless at times, and the Vong seem like monsters without redeeming qualities, and there are easy choices that involve moral short-cuts...

...and instead, the morally just path leads to a redemption arc for the entire species.

I really think that Stover and Luceno in particular had such an excellent grasp on the underlying ethics and metaphysics that they managed to really express something amazing in the NJO series. So despite that fact that it has flaws, and the fact tht I would have done certain things very differently... it's not fair to treat it like something it's definitely not.

I mean yeah, the bantam era wasn’t planned out like the NJO was, but the content was rarely contradictory except again for things like Zahn not liking the idea of Mara banging Lando. I think the 15 year period IU works well, the empire, various minor alien threats, the first corellian rebellion, and the refounding of the Jedi.