Fallout The Eagle And The Bear [Fallout AU]

Jarow

Well-known member
I doubt they can put them in power armor or some type of vehicle. But using them in place of their current standard infantryman (non-powered armor, some kind of rifle? Can't remember exact details) is probably doable. The main advantage of using them (and why they're doing it) is that they can keep their trained factory workers as such (and train new ones to hopefully increase their industry). If there are people who want to volunteer for the army, they'll probably be the ones using what tanks, power armor, ships, planes, etc. they can produce.

Power armored troops definitely crush normal troops, but that doesn't mean they don't have a use. After all, those power armor troops can only be in so many places at once. Send a whole bunch of clones you don't care about to cause chaos in several places, and mass the rest of your troops to hit one group sent to deal with the clones at a time for a defeat in detail. Get a few lucky kills when the clones get caught. Most importantly - keep the US on the defensive. The NCR's big research facility (Big MT) is actually loyal to the US but doesn't realize that's who the enemy is. If the US pierces that deep in, the US gets access to pretty much everything the NCR has and the people best suited to figure out how to counter it.

Now, the question is how well the clones will function. I don't know about any canon cloning system, so I can't say. "Genetic and mental imprints" also doesn't say much. Could mean they're basically identical to the people they're based on (best case, but might not appreciate now being a valueless clone and adjust poorly to learning about the US population being happy being under the Enclave). Could mean they're actually unique people with minds well adjusted to learning war (also really good case, but time needed for training could make things more difficult for NCR). Could also mean they're completely random people preprogrammed with certain thoughts (worst case, mixing people could combine worst traits, and preprogramming would react really poorly with US citizens behaving unexpectedly). We'll have to see.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
The NCR has several irons in the fire, not all of which are related to Big MT (also, I finally came up with a decent explanation for what the hell Duraframe is! Yay me!).
 

Lee5566

Member
I cannot even begin to describe how unethical and hypocritical the NCR's mass cloning plan is. One of the things that they condemn the Enclave for is supposedly having a caste system and using slave soldiers and here they are planning to do the same thing.

I get that desperate times call for desperate measures but seems a bit much. I wonder if by the end of this war the NCR will end up looking more like Richardson than his actual descendants.

Also you should threadmark this.

No, your absolutely right. There is no easy way to justify mass cloning for soldiers. It is essentially creating lab grown child slaves sentenced to servitude or death. Deradicalization was just another term for brainwashing, but even then that was understandable from the NCR perspective. This however is the point where they have crossed the moral event horizon. NCR may have had legitimate concerns at one point, but at this point, there is no justification, and they can all go to hell.
 

AspblastUSA

Well-known member
Even if the NCR and create hundreds of thousands of clone troopers (heh), they still need to be sheltered, clothed, fed, and equipped. I seriously doubt the NCR actually has the capacity support enough clone troopers to actually turn the tide.

Bah, you don't need to worry about those things! That's what cloned farmers, laborers, and builders are for! Not enough men to support the clones? Clones for clones, of course!

...What do you mean the migrant workers and the clone laborers are striking "in solidarity"?


In all seriousness it shows just how far gone the NCR leadership is down the rabbit-hole of their own propaganda (and a historically unprecedented counterintelligence campaign by the US government) that they seem to have completely failed to realize that the clone army they're talking about setting up will be organized along precisely the same lines that they believed the Enclave armed forces are. On that note I actually expect this could be controversial within the NCR for that very reason, even within their incorrect world-view it could be seen as a "we're becoming no better than them" moment.
 

f1onagher

Well-known member
Even if the NCR and create hundreds of thousands of clone troopers (heh), they still need to be sheltered, clothed, fed, and equipped. I seriously doubt the NCR actually has the capacity support enough clone troopers to actually turn the tide.
Clones can serve as ablative population. A useful tool for a total war situation where every citizen put into uniform is one less working in a factory or farm. The ethical considerations are certainly up there, but unless the NCR plans to keep them permanently in service one can (crudely) call service the price of existence. Definitely skeevy, but not registering quite that high in a conflict that already involves various forms of population suppression (The classical kinds employed by the NCR and BoS and I think one of the E!USA snippets involved literal brainwashing in one of their alphabet black sites)

Still, it's hard to feel as if the NCR ever posed a threat to the US. The Americans already had a laughable advantage in arms and armament before the new suits hit production, not to mention a technological head start on almost every front, and once the eastern armies and European auxiliaries are in place everything between the Mississippi and the Rockies is just wide open maneuver territory for the US to deploy all their toys on. The NCR is fomenting its own aces, hijacking US orbital assets is one of the few legitimate game-changers we've seen so far, but otherwise its all mostly a series of dirty tricks like robo-scorpions and the Cloud.

They have the cards to stop the US at the Rockies, but any attempt at actually taking out the US offensively were pipe dreams from day one. Especially after the Lone Star diplomacy fight went tits up.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Made this p. much for fun, but consider this 'official' backstory.

The state of the Sino-American war in 2071, considered to be the zenith of the PRC's military success and territorial control, though their troops were wantonly overstretched and in poor supply. US and allies are in blue, China and allies in red:

dAfKrug.png
 
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Navarro

Well-known member
Still, it's hard to feel as if the NCR ever posed a threat to the US. The Americans already had a laughable advantage in arms and armament before the new suits hit production, not to mention a technological head start on almost every front

NCR and USA are actually relatively close in tech level. As I've said before, the NCR is a near-peer to the USA. The NCR's issues aren't with making high tech, it's about getting it to their soldiers.

The NCR is fomenting its own aces, hijacking US orbital assets is one of the few legitimate game-changers we've seen so far, but otherwise its all mostly a series of dirty tricks like robo-scorpions and the Cloud.

The NCR has a number of tricks up their sleeve that haven't been mentioned yet as well.

As rough as the opening moves were it sounds like year after next is going to be the actual climax of the conflict.

There are actually a number of events that could be called the climax of the war planned. Some as late as late 2335. But that's [REDACTED].
 

SuperHeavy

Well-known member
NCR and USA are actually relatively close in tech level. As I've said before, the NCR is a near-peer to the USA. The NCR's issues aren't with making high tech, it's about getting it to their soldiers.
How? They got the download of US designs sure but their entire scientific and educational infrastructure was frankly pathetic after over a century. Their entire R&D apparatus would have to learn to walk while their opponents are already running with a shot in the arm thanks to former CIT personnel. The Big MT and areas like it can provide certain pieces of tech that can be copied easily enough but that's about it. Plus the massive strain that expanding and modernizing their industry and military to close to USA levels would consume their limited budget further, not leaving much to build up higher learning.
 

KnightTemplar

Active member
While California may be able to make superweapons and crazy science projects remember that so can the Enclave. For every cloud based weapon or mass cloning project the Enclave has Curling gas or syth production. If California pushes too hard then the Enclave may be tempted to actually use these things.
 

AspblastUSA

Well-known member
The state of the Sino-American war in 2071, considered to be the zenith of the PRC's military success and territorial control, though their troops were wantonly overstretched and in poor supply. US and allies are in blue, China and allies in red:

I don't know what sort of state the USSR was in by the 2050s, but taking on both of the other two nuclear superpowers simultaneously was a... bold choice for the PRC. I can't imagine how terribly the Chinese must've been pasted if they faced the full brunt of both the American and Russian nuclear arsenals in 2077.

There are actually a number of events that could be called the climax of the war planned. Some as late as late 2335. But that's [REDACTED].

I was using climax here to mean the last point where the war really hangs in the balance. I had assumed that by 2335 the NCR would be well beyond any hope of accomplishing their original goals, even if they still had enough bite to potentially force a white peace on the USA by that year.

While California may be able to make superweapons and crazy science projects remember that so can the Enclave. For every cloud based weapon or mass cloning project the Enclave has Curling gas or syth production. If California pushes too hard then the Enclave may be tempted to actually use these things.

Given that the E-USA originally developed the curling-13 variant of the FEV to combat just how virulent the original escaped strains are I actually expect they'd be extremely hesitant to use it now. As a bioweapon it may be extremely effective but the FEV has proven time and again that it is nearly impossible to truly eliminate and has also shown surprising mutability. Personally if I were the 24th century US I'd be less hesitant to use nukes, reputation be damned, than to unleash a weaponized FEV.
 

ForeverShogo

Well-known member
Oh. Good. The United States doesn't have to worry about exterminating the Ghouls, even if they probably waited until one started to degenerate into Feralness before putting any down.

And I feel like the next phase of the war will probably be the Great Plains being overrun and the Brotherhood being put down, with the single biggest delaying factor in the war being having to get around the Rockies.

The stuff with Archimedes is probably going to be a "you only get one shot" kind of situation. Unlike the NCR, the United States has actually been working to restore the space industry and put more satellites and the like into space. If the NCR tries to use Archimedes, I'm sure it'll be destroyed in short order by anti-satellite weapons . . . And then, well, the United States will have its own satellite weapons to bring to bear.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
In all seriousness it shows just how far gone the NCR leadership is down the rabbit-hole of their own propaganda (and a historically unprecedented counterintelligence campaign by the US government)

Really?


It was only later that its potential for deception purposes was realised ...

... Later agents were instructed to contact agents who, unknown to the Abwehr, were controlled by the British ...

... After the war, it was discovered that all the agents Germany sent to Britain had given themselves up or had been captured, with the possible exception of one who committed suicide.

(There's more to this asw. going on than I've already shown, that'll be revealed, too).

that they seem to have completely failed to realize that the clone army they're talking about setting up will be organized along precisely the same lines that they believed the Enclave armed forces are. On that note I actually expect this could be controversial within the NCR for that very reason, even within their incorrect world-view it could be seen as a "we're becoming no better than them" moment.

I mean, they do intend to treat the "Myrmidon units" better than they think the Enclave treats their non-PA soldiers. So in their minds it wouldn't be so hypocritical.

Now, the question is how well the clones will function. I don't know about any canon cloning system, so I can't say. "Genetic and mental imprints" also doesn't say much. Could mean they're basically identical to the people they're based on (best case, but might not appreciate now being a valueless clone and adjust poorly to learning about the US population being happy being under the Enclave). Could mean they're actually unique people with minds well adjusted to learning war (also really good case, but time needed for training could make things more difficult for NCR). Could also mean they're completely random people preprogrammed with certain thoughts (worst case, mixing people could combine worst traits, and preprogramming would react really poorly with US citizens behaving unexpectedly). We'll have to see.

I mean, "clone" is kind of a simplification of what's going on with this - Kimball isn't a scientist and Weathers knows that.
 

AspblastUSA

Well-known member

You misunderstand, I wasn't talking about the scale here (though that does rival the likes of the Double-Cross system), but in the fact that the USA's counterintelligence program has viciously exploited the NCR's preexisting beliefs to convince the Californian government from the top down of an entirely false reality regarding what is happening across the Mississippi. Admittedly I'm not an expert in the history of espionage, but I can't think of a historical case of one nation managing to completely and utterly deceive it's enemies about it's entire way of life like has happened here. That is where it becomes historically unprecedented.
 

ForeverShogo

Well-known member
It was mentioned, but it actually is a good point that just because they can apparently shit out tens of thousands of clonetroopers at a time doesn't mean they have the resources or the production capacity to adequately clothe, feed, or arm them.

Also, it'd be kind of hilarious if they ran into the exact same fuck up that Vault 108 ran into. Just an army of Gary's running wild.

Part of a grand cloning experiment with a fatal end, 54 clones of "Gary" were created. Each had varying levels of violent and psychoic traits and behaviors, leading to the scientists' deaths and Garys running freely throughout the Vault. They use inflections of voice tone, speaking only their name, to communicate and are hostile towards any outsiders.

A holotape labeled cloning log can be found in the Vault 108 cloning lab, which explains that Gary was cloned at least 54 times. All clones exhibited hostility towards non-clones, with each successive clone being more and more violent. When the Vault scientists started running out of room to store the clones, they planned to destroy some of them to make room for additional test subjects. Sometime afterward, the clones violently took control of the Vault.


I'd assume they'd be smart enough to stop fucking cloning people if every clone acted like the Gary clones did, but the idea of the clone army immediately turning on the NCR the moment they get their gear still amuses me.

Because holy hell are Vault scientists stupid.

Scientist 1: The clones just want to kill anything not a clone.

Scientist 2: Should we stop?

Scientist 3: Let's just keep making clones until we run out of room for them. What's the worst that could happen?
 

DarthAwesome

Relativistic Warfare Strategist
It was mentioned, but it actually is a good point that just because they can apparently shit out tens of thousands of clonetroopers at a time doesn't mean they have the resources or the production capacity to adequately clothe, feed, or arm them.

Also, it'd be kind of hilarious if they ran into the exact same fuck up that Vault 108 ran into. Just an army of Gary's running wild.

Part of a grand cloning experiment with a fatal end, 54 clones of "Gary" were created. Each had varying levels of violent and psychoic traits and behaviors, leading to the scientists' deaths and Garys running freely throughout the Vault. They use inflections of voice tone, speaking only their name, to communicate and are hostile towards any outsiders.

A holotape labeled cloning log can be found in the Vault 108 cloning lab, which explains that Gary was cloned at least 54 times. All clones exhibited hostility towards non-clones, with each successive clone being more and more violent. When the Vault scientists started running out of room to store the clones, they planned to destroy some of them to make room for additional test subjects. Sometime afterward, the clones violently took control of the Vault.


I'd assume they'd be smart enough to stop fucking cloning people if every clone acted like the Gary clones did, but the idea of the clone army immediately turning on the NCR the moment they get their gear still amuses me.

Because holy hell are Vault scientists stupid.

Scientist 1: The clones just want to kill anything not a clone.

Scientist 2: Should we stop?

Scientist 3: Let's just keep making clones until we run out of room for them. What's the worst that could happen?
Yeah, that Vault was doomed to failure. Like just about every other one.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
And I feel like the next phase of the war will probably be the Great Plains being overrun and the Brotherhood being put down, with the single biggest delaying factor in the war being having to get around the Rockies.

Yes, the Great Plains are going to be the theatre of the next stage of the war.

And the NCR is, as you noted, absurdly well-defended from a geographic POV. An attacker starting on the East Coast of the US has to get past not only one but three mountain ranges before hitting the NCR's core territory, the areas it can't do without. And a rocky, inhospitable desert.
 

ForeverShogo

Well-known member
To bypass the worst of it they either go through Arizona, New Mexico, and Northern Mexico . . . More or less the same route the Legion was going to take . . . Or they go way the fuck north into Canada and basically loop around so they can swing south and advance into Washington. Probably take Alaska while they're at it, since they'll be up in that area if they go north.

If they can get naval and air superiority, support either approach with amphibious assaults, air drops, etc. etc.
 

DarthAwesome

Relativistic Warfare Strategist
To bypass the worst of it they either go through Arizona, New Mexico, and Northern Mexico . . . More or less the same route the Legion was going to take . . . Or they go way the fuck north into Canada and basically loop around so they can swing south and advance into Washington. Probably take Alaska while they're at it, since they'll be up in that area if they go north.

If they can get naval and air superiority, support either approach with amphibious assaults, air drops, etc. etc.
North May be the way to go. The NCR isn't expecting it, and they have some potential friends in the Alaskan Brotherhood.
 

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