The Emotions of Reaction and Socialism?

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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Obozny
It is not just the self-reliance mindset on the Right. At least part of it is likely due to difference between conservatory vs revolutionary mindset. Modern mainstream Right is in fact comprised of de-facto centrists. They want to conserve the existing values, but there is no push to "go back in time", to "turn back the clock".

I don't buy that. There are very clearly policy positions the right is pushing toward and trying to enact. Abortion being the most obvious example...for both sides, actually, since for the most part the left's goal is to maintain the status quo, not to expand it farther.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
Lol what? What bullshit. The leftist goal is to go further left.

As I said, I don't think that's the case. To my knowledge, the left's activity on abortion consists almost entirely of fighting any legislation that impedes it's function or access, or trying to take areas where it is impeded and expand abortion access there to match the rest of the country. There is no consistent push to go farther than that.
 

LifeisTiresome

Well-known member
As I said, I don't think that's the case. To my knowledge, the left's activity on abortion consists almost entirely of fighting any legislation that impedes it's function or access, or trying to take areas where it is impeded and expand abortion access there to match the rest of the country. There is no consistent push to go farther than that.
In the US? Sure. But there has been mention of france pushing it upto birth itself. Though I heard that was just a way to then negotiate for higher time period.

And the left on other issues is fully pushing to expand things, not maintain a status quo
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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Obozny
In the US? Sure. But there has been mention of france pushing it upto birth itself. Though I heard that was just a way to then negotiate for higher time period.

And the left on other issues is fully pushing to expand things, not maintain a status quo

And the US right is pushing to change somethings things, not just always maintain the status quo, and other right wing elements in the world are doing differant things as well. The parties aren't monoliths with only one mode of behavior and action.
 

LifeisTiresome

Well-known member
And the US right is pushing to change somethings things, not just always maintain the status quo, and other right wing elements in the world are doing differant things as well. The parties aren't monoliths with only one mode of behavior and action.
Which right are we talking about? UK Conservatives? They are basically nothing but globalist bootlickers just like most mainstream right wing parties. Trump? Trump is no Conservative. Anyone who actually thinks that is hilarious.

Your point is that the Left just wants a status quo for abortion and that is likely not really true. And we know that they in no way care about a so called Status Quo for anything else.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
I don't buy that. There are very clearly policy positions the right is pushing toward and trying to enact. Abortion being the most obvious example...for both sides, actually, since for the most part the left's goal is to maintain the status quo, not to expand it farther.

In short-term, maybe, but I was talking about long-term. Can you name even one policy which was abandoned before your birth that "Right" is trying to get to / bring back?
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
In short-term, maybe, but I was talking about long-term. Can you name even one policy which was abandoned before your birth that "Right" is trying to get to / bring back?

1. As mentioned, banning abortion.
2. Ending gun control laws.
3. Getting taxes cut back down to, at a minimum, Reagan-era levels. That one is more 'around' my birth than before it.
4. Ending China's favored status as a trading partner.
5. Securing the border.
6. Requiring photo ID to vote.
7. Cutting down on government regulations, particular federal ones.
8. Dismantling the voting plantation known as the 'welfare state.'
9. Balanced budget, preferably via amendment.
10. Ending the federal student-aid program.

There's a few.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
In short-term, maybe, but I was talking about long-term. Can you name even one policy which was abandoned before your birth that "Right" is trying to get to / bring back?
Can you name even one policy was which abandoned before your birth that's worth bringing back?
 

Curved_Sw0rd

Just Like That Bluebird
Lol what? What bullshit. The leftist goal is to go further left.
A very good litmus test is to ask someone "Are some people better than others?" And the open-endedness if a feature not a bug. There's always, always inequality in some shape or form out there, to view it all as unacceptable is basically the road to Belomor.

Also, I can't really thank you enough for linking to A Dormant Dynasty, very insightful stuff. And not terribly depressing either.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Can you name even one policy was which abandoned before your birth that's worth bringing back?

If we go with situation in Croatia and go back to 15th century or at least Austria-Hungary... everything?

As for US:
1. Abortion regulation
2. less weapons regulation
3. greater States' rights (decentralization)
4. greater immigration regulation
 
@Lord Invictus You pretty much described why I became a monarchist / dark enlightenment / neoreactionary type. It basically started with my realization that history does not show constant progress - technological progress yes, but how important technology is? Did we I really achieve greater quality of life? I was no happier after I got computer than I was when I just had books - despite the fact that computer is basically one piece of modern technology I truly like, mostly because it means I have easier access to both literature and discussion areas (meaning forums and stuff). As for other technology... Refrigerator? In my days as a student I lived just fine without using one. I prefer sleeping on floor over sleeping in a bed, I don't think electric stove is that much better than wood-burning one - and I don't use it that often anyway, I can shower with cold water even though it is not exactly comfortable, and so on. Even computer I would not believe that important if there were a) a huge library and b) regular discussion groups nearby. But with everything else other than technology, I have seen no progress at all. Education? Yes, we cram facts into childrens' heads but - what good are "facts" if there is no understanding? And most students I have been with do not really have interest in anything beyond "getting it over with" anyway, certainly not in actually understanding stuff. My late grandma understood how things stood better with four years of primary school than most academics I know of. Food? Food we eat nowadays is literally poisonous. It is denser in calories and relatively cheap, but despite that majority of people in developed world are undernourished.

Fact is that modernity has failed (Me). The belief that everything can be understood rationally, and that happy life can be achieved that way, has failed. People I need something to live for, and reason alone cannot provide that. The entire idea that happiness can be achieved by providing material standards, that material advance automatically increases
emotional quality of life, has been proven wrong. Despite generally easier life and higher standards, people living in cities have greater likelyhood of depression and other mental health issues. And the entire modern world just feeds into dehumanization, alienization and general unhappiness.


Were you ever a happy person to begin with after becoming an adult or are you constantly chasing after a nostalgic euphoria that will most likely never be found? Cause honestly I think THAT'S humanities biggest problem. We can go through governmental systems and philosophies like socks, but we are NEVER going to reach that since of nirvana we seem to crave so much (Not in this world anyway) short of constantly getting high, or resting six feet underground.

I'm seeing the left (and sadly much of the right) seemingly fall into this trap of chasing after an entire centeries they were never apart of nor have any reflection of save history books and romantic novels (and we all know how accurate those things are) yet feel in their hearts that it was somehow better. Yet they are surprised when this attempt at recreating those "Good ol days" fails miserably, and yet rather than self reflect it gets brushed off as "Well that wasn't real *insert system here.* Oh and just ignore all the other people we dragged into the abyss with us.

funny how no one seems to ask people who lived in communist countries why they FLED to capitalist nations, or why monarchism shortly died after the industrial revolution and the world wars.
 
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Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Were you ever a happy person to begin with after becoming an adult or are you constantly chasing after a nostalgic euphoria that will most likely never be found? Cause honestly I think THAT'S humanities biggest problem. We can go through governmental systems and philosophies like socks, but we are NEVER going to reach that since of nirvana we seem to crave so much (Not in this world anyway) short of constantly getting high, or resting six feet underground.

I got PC before I became an adult, and I was kinda-sorta depressed with situation even before that (and then access to all information on Internet made it worse). So no, it is not just a function of "chasing after a nostalgic euphoria". In fact, actually working was, psychologically speaking, good for me - though finding a job is difficult, I do feel better working than just worrying about stuff.

funny how no one seems to ask people who lived in communist countries why they FLED to capitalist nations, or why monarchism shortly died after the industrial revolution and the world wars.

World Wars were not caused by monarchism, they were caused by a) colonialism^1 and b) general euphoria for war in the populace (both of these were true for World War I, and WWI caused the WWII). But big part of why monarchism died was misconception that monarchism was the cause^2, because it is easier to blame a single person than to recognize that it was largely your own fault as well (in fact it was the people and the governments who were pushing for the war, whereas monarchs were... less than enthusiastic). If it weren't for (in many cases pseudo-democratic) governments, it is entirely possible that personal relations between monarchs might have prevented the war alltogether.

1^In fact, there were global conflicts caused by colonialism before World War I: most obviously the Seven Years War and its own continuation, the Napoleonic Wars. But since they happened before the industrial revolution, they were not so destructive.
2^You can see this here. Title states that monarchic marriages "helped cause" World War I, but text merely shows that they failed to stop the war. But again, easier to blame the monarchy and pretend that such a thing cannot happen because "those evil monarchs" are gone.
 
I got PC before I became an adult, and I was kinda-sorta depressed with situation even before that (and then access to all information on Internet made it worse). So no, it is not just a function of "chasing after a nostalgic euphoria". In fact, actually working was, psychologically speaking, good for me - though finding a job is difficult, I do feel better working than just worrying about stuff.

I'll take your word for it only for the fact that I can't see you so I can't verify what you're like
World Wars were not caused by monarchism, they were caused by a) colonialism^1 and b) general euphoria for war in the populace (both of these were true for World War I, and WWI caused the WWII). But big part of why monarchism died was misconception that monarchism was the cause^2, because it is easier to blame a single person than to recognize that it was largely your own fault as well (in fact it was the people and the governments who were pushing for the war, whereas monarchs were... less than enthusiastic). If it weren't for (in many cases pseudo-democratic) governments, it is entirely possible that personal relations between monarchs might have prevented the war alltogether.

and yet your doing the equivalent of blaming the refrigerator, internet and buildings. using them as symbols and scapegoats for the failure of modernity "Oh our food is poisonous, the buildings, are maddening, I could do just fine without a refrigerator." What's stopping you from going to a farmers market? What's keeping you from living in a small shack? What's keeping you from being a nomad. In short....speak for yourself and yourself only. The only thing keeping you from living the life you want to live is your own weakness.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
If we go with situation in Croatia and go back to 15th century or at least Austria-Hungary... everything?

As for US:
1. Abortion regulation
2. less weapons regulation
3. greater States' rights (decentralization)
4. greater immigration regulation
I'll admit to being ignorant as to what's happening in Croatia; but besides that, most conservatives I've talked to argue in favor of one or more of those positions you listed. It leaves me rather confused as to where this idea of yours comes from that they're "de-facto centrists".
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
I'll admit to being ignorant as to what's happening in Croatia; but besides that, most conservatives I've talked to argue in favor of one or more of those positions you listed. It leaves me rather confused as to where this idea of yours comes from that they're "de-facto centrists".

Because these positions are not binary. It is not just a question of arguing for certain positions, but also a question of "intensity", of what level exactly is deemed acceptable. Compare paleoconservativism with neoconservativism; between the two, it is paleoconservatives I consider to be actual conservatives in the US context. For neoconservatives in particular, main issue I have is that they are contradictory: they may argue for the four positions I have listed, but they also literally gut everything which makes those positions possible or at least practical in the first place, by promoting global open market, absolute deregulation (even up to abandoning anti-merger and anti-monopoly laws) and so on.

and yet your doing the equivalent of blaming the refrigerator, internet and buildings. using them as symbols and scapegoats for the failure of modernity "Oh our food is poisonous, the buildings, are maddening, I could do just fine without a refrigerator." What's stopping you from going to a farmers market? What's keeping you from living in a small shack? What's keeping you from being a nomad. In short....speak for yourself and yourself only. The only thing keeping you from living the life you want to live is your own weakness.

1) I actually do go to farmers' market. Many people do, and personally, much if not majority of the food I eat is bought there. But there is simply not enough such markets for everyone to do the same even if they wanted to, and part of the reason for this is that producing food is simply too expensive, especially compared to import food which is usually nothing more than literal waste (companies in Croatia are importing stuff that was, for various reasons, rejected in Western states - it is either beyond the expiry date, or too unhealthy for various reasons). Milk production cannot survive without state support because import milk is much cheaper, for example. At the same time, there are too many regulations for even starting business, meaning that if people stop producing there is nobody to replace them. Just recently I worked on an agricultural census (as a part-time job), and for vast majority of the people I have talked to, their story is the same: agricultural production is a net loss, and they only work in agriculture because they need something to relax, to get away from modern urban society so as to maintain healthy psyche; but it is not something they can even improve financial situation with, let alone live from.
2) What is keeping me from living on village is the fact that I simply wouldn't be able to produce enough food for myself, let alone to sell it - and traditional village community which would enable people to live without monetary income is no more. There are multiple reasons for that, one of which is the fact that we have not had a functional state for a long time - ever since 1918., the only purpose of the state seems to be taxation, but whenever you try to start anything yourself (be it business or agricultural production), only thing you encounter are obstacles. And I don't mean normal obstacles of starting a business, such as need for starting capital; I mean obstacles of administration, bureocracy and other mechanisms of state. And only then you get to the issue I noted in point 1), namely finances.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I'll take your word for it only for the fact that I can't see you so I can't verify what you're like

and yet your doing the equivalent of blaming the refrigerator, internet and buildings. using them as symbols and scapegoats for the failure of modernity "Oh our food is poisonous, the buildings, are maddening, I could do just fine without a refrigerator." What's stopping you from going to a farmers market?
The food costs five times what junk food does and people can't afford it.

What's keeping you from living in a small shack?
Zoning laws, building regulations, and HOAs that demand houses of a specific size and quality and will condemn the place if you try to build a shack.

What's keeping you from being a nomad.
Laws against Trespassing and Vagrancy.

Not that many people aren't responsible for their own situations, but there's always something more than "yourself" holding you back because none of us are Islands.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
The food costs five times what junk food does and people can't afford it.
Good food can be had on the cheap; if you know where to look, and how to prepare it. I basically took over cooking duties for my family months ago, and I'm always amazed at how easy it is to make a healthy, and satisfying, meal.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Good food can be had on the cheap; if you know where to look, and how to prepare it. I basically took over cooking duties for my family months ago, and I'm always amazed at how easy it is to make a healthy, and satisfying, meal.
If you know where to look, and if you live in the right area so that it's there to find and if you actually have the time to prepare it, and if you have the right cooking implements and don't keep getting them stolen, and if you have the right skills and knowledge. That's a lot of Ifs. I'm there myself having learned a lot about cooking healthy food inexpensively but I don't pretend my specific skillset is universal to all humans. Not everybody has the same opportunities and "well it can be done if all the dice fall the right way" is too often an excuse to look down on people. You can be fabulously wealthy if you get several ifs lined in a row too, that doesn't mean every person who isn't fabulously wealthy just didn't try enough.
 

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