The Political Problem of Pornography

[prinCZess]

But even if we do need to have women go into college, why should they degrade themselves going into the pornography industry?

Because not everyone views it as degrading the way you do so your premise is biased from the start, and there's a good deal of money in it for those who don't have your particular views on the matter--in much the same way that some men 'degrade' themselves by going to work in oilfields instead of going to college (I wish to further clarify this being a conception that is relatively commonly held by certain social segments--not my own).

 

[The Name of Love]

Because not everyone views it as degrading the way you do so your premise is biased from the start, and there's a good deal of money in it for those who don't have your particular views on the matter--in much the same way that some men 'degrade' themselves by going to work in oilfields instead of going to college (I wish to further clarify this being a conception that is relatively commonly held by certain social segments--not my own).

Well, whether something is degrading or not is not a matter of opinion though. I mean, these girls are ruining their ability to have steady relationships with men.

 

[prinCZess]

Well, whether something is degrading or not is not a matter of opinion though. I mean, these girls are ruining their ability to have steady relationships with men.

Except 'degrading' is a matter of opinion--I refer you back to how 'degrading' some people find men who go into the wrong work.
If you want to contest that, you'll forgive me for not believing the only so far presented evidence related to this (presuming it's relevant--which is another presumption that might not be justified) besides your own assertion of it being the case--which consists of a cropped mishmash of graphs where the only source is on one that doesn't actually focus on women*...And all of which don't pertain to pornographic actresses--whom are quite outside the average in terms of number of partners.

*Also relevant to note that the National Marriage Project's highlighted concern on the matter is distorted in the representation--as they note that these values relate specifically to and were drawn from samples of women in relationships--pornographic actresses having relationships with their opposites is decidedly not the norm, so not exactly relevant in that vein.
Of course, the NMP also proposes counseling, some state programs and funding matters, and couples engaging in communication rather than banning porn.

 

[FriedCFour]

Except 'degrading' is a matter of opinion

Really? Nothing is degrading unless you feel like it is? You don't think certain habits could be inherently degrading or degrading on a societal level?

 

[Scottty]

Don't you know, it's so much easier to pretend that the system hasn't become designed to fuck over people with debt, than to

Well, there's your problem.

That, combined with the social expectation that you must become economically successful before you can take a mate. If young people could pair off and marry while still in college, a lot of social problems would be less.

 

[prinCZess]

Really? Nothing is degrading unless you feel like it is? You don't think certain habits could be inherently degrading or degrading on a societal level?

In order: Yes, Yes this is my personal feeling on the matter, and It depends--varying based upon a subjective desire for societal endpoints that have differing goals. Whether a 'steady relationship' equates to a 'good' one, for instance (and plenty of assumption based on averages of what the state of a vast number of relationships are that is pretty much wholly unjustified by anything in fact and motivated purely by ideology). Or, to go thread-relevant, whether pornography is an evil that brings-on nefarious liberal viewpoints.

Pinpointing marriage averages based on prior relationships as an argument against porno actresses isn't solidly grounded from the start (averages being averages and porn actresses being a drastic minority unaccounted for in those averages and who've already noxxed the average behavior quite readily themselves) isn't a solid argument. And the only other thing thus presented is 'it's degrading'.
Which rounds about back to 'Yes, that is your personal feeling on the matter. Why is such any more relevant than someone else finding manual labor degrading?'.

Habits and behaviors can have negative consequences on-average. Alcohol, drug use, poor education, living in the wrong neighborhood, etc. 'Degrading' is a value judgement independent of the consequences (and, in this case, with no evidence or justification presented with any merit to it beyond 'I think this' which...Yeah, sure, okay, you do you).

 

[FriedCFour]

And the only other thing thus presented is 'it's degrading'.
Which rounds about back to 'Yes, that is your personal feeling on the matter. Why is such any more relevant than someone else finding manual labor degrading?'.

People finding manual labor degrading is a massive problem though.



That mindset and push is screwing not just the economic workings of our cities but our own citizenry as they compete for desk jobs and get heaped upon by student debt but are refusing to take manual labor jobs because boomers drilled into them that kind of work is beneath them.

Conversely, the fact that having your kids engage with and become drag stars is clearly pretty damaging and leads to normalized pedophilia and sexual interactions with kids. That drag is degrading is clearly something we should see especially in regards to children. When you are talking about society as a whole it's an unfortunate truth that live and let live, leave others alone is an impossibility. You cannot leave a vacuum of influence where we are just radical individualists forging our own way. You will be influenced by the mores of society and it is up to good people to point out and fight against the bad of what is pushed on them as good when in reality, it is not just degrading to the individual but degrades the moral fabric of society as a whole.

 

[Lanmandragon]

Ah, but then how would the loan companies, for-profit colleges, and bankers make a profit?

What those who cling and look to 'traditional values' don't get is that the system has changed, the world has changed, and not in their favor. It has built up inertia, just like an avalanche, and they are but pebbles trying to stop it.

In the socio-political realm, as in the natural realm, the rule is 'Adapt or die'. When they cling to 'traditional values' as the answer to today's problems, they are actively refusing to adapt, and come to terms with what actual solutions to today's problems might require.

Far better to wither and die then to give up your principles. I mean I don't agree with live about banning porn. Still though arguing folks should support things they fundamentally oppose. Just because the world has "changed" isn't something that should happen.

 

[Captain X]

Emily DaVinci quite famously paid for at least her undergraduate degree in chemical engineering by doing porn. She now has a PhD and is working for a university, doing research in nanotechnology. She is debt free and making quite a bit of money, and she's younger than I am. Or you have someone like Marie-Claude Bourbonnais who has never had sex on camera, but posed nude, and has made such good money off of it that she now works entirely for herself, still doing some glamor (nude) modeling, but also making her own cosplays (some quite elaborate) and going to conventions as her own passion, and still even making money off of that.

 

[Lanmandragon]

Emily DaVinci quite famously paid for at least her undergraduate degree in chemical engineering by doing porn. She now has a PhD and is working for a university, doing research in nanotechnology. She is debt free and making quite a bit of money, and she's younger than I am. Or you have someone like Marie-Claude Bourbonnais who has never had sex on camera, but posed nude, and has made such good money off of it that she now works entirely for herself, still doing some glamor (nude) modeling, but also making her own cosplays (some quite elaborate) and going to conventions as her own passion, and still even making money off of that.

Selling cocaine to middle schoolers is also quite lucrative. Doesn't make it a moral action. Your line of argumentation is absurd. "It makes a bunch of money" isn't an argument dude..

 

[Captain X]

Compares making porn and posing nude with selling cocaine to middle schoolers, then tells me my argument is absurd!? Ah hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha!

 

[FriedCFour]

Compares making porn and posing nude with selling cocaine to middle schoolers, then tells me my argument is absurd!? Ah hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha!

The point is just because it makes you money and can pay for college doesn't make it moral or good. Cocaine dealing makes you money and can pay your way through college, as an example of immorality that is lucrative. There isn't actually a comparison going on, it's an example of lucrative work that can pay for a degree but isn't moral, showing that just because a couple of anecdotal pornstars didn't end up washed up prostitutes, raped, degraded, drug addicts or infected with diseases like aids doesn't mean what they did was a good thing. I would like to know though, would you be proud if your daughter paid her way through school taking dick to show to the public and being masturbated to by strangers? Would you show her off to your friends as an example of industriousness and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps?

 

[Lanmandragon]

Compares making porn and posing nude with selling cocaine to middle schoolers, then tells me my argument is absurd!? Ah hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha!

Ahh so your not going to make an actual argument then? It's blindingly obvious that your argument centers around porn being lucrative. Many many things are lucrative quite a few being immoral and evil. Therefore your argument that "broads paid for college" is a non argument. Also don't be a coward quote me instead of sniping.

 

[Captain X]

Nothing you said was worth any kind of debate. What you said was laughable. When you consider I wasn't actually making a statement about how much money they made doing it, but what they have done with their lives and are perfectly happy with, it makes it that much more laughable. I also feel that I should point out that it is very presumptuous of you and others to tell these people that they should feel degraded. It reminds me so much of people who presume to be offended for other people who don't actually feel offended.

 

[Lanmandragon]

Nothing you said was worth any kind of debate. What you said was laughable. When you consider I wasn't actually making a statement about how much money they made doing it, but what they have done with their lives and are perfectly happy with, it makes it that much more laughable. I also feel that I should point out that it is very presumptuous of you and others to tell these people that they should feel degraded. It reminds me so much of people who presume to be offended for other people who don't actually feel offended.

Uh huh werre did I say it was "degrading"? Whatever though your continued failure to quote me leaders me to believe this to be worthless. So have a good night son. I have neither the time nor patience to continue.

 

[Captain X]

I also declare victory, so there.

 

[Lanmandragon]

I also declare victory, so there.

What? Victory in what? I didn't even make an argument?

 

[FriedCFour]

When you consider I wasn't actually making a statement about how much money they made doing it, but what they have done with their lives and are perfectly happy with, it makes it that much more laughable.

How do you know they are perfectly happy? And if a drug dealer is perfectly happy does that make it good?

 

[prinCZess]

Conversely, the fact that having your kids engage with and become drag stars is clearly pretty damaging and leads to normalized pedophilia and sexual interactions with kids.

We seem to have quite immediately drifted from the topic of porn actresses to an entirely different category of people and context of action. Though one where 'don't let your kids interact with these people if you object' is...still a quite viable solution.
Don't let your kids interact with porn stars. Parenting. Problem solved.

You cannot leave a vacuum of influence where we are just radical individualists forging our own way. You will be influenced by the mores of society and it is up to good people to point out and fight against the bad of what is pushed on them as good when in reality, it is not just degrading to the individual but degrades the moral fabric of society as a whole.

And such is done best by appealing to reason, not emotional appeals to how 'degrading' it is to do [x]. We might note that the bias against manual labor was spurred-on incredibly by kids and parents being presented with a morass of stats and data (manipulative and distorted) which informed them that college was a sure-fire way to increase earnings, have a happier life, and increase sexual vigor.
Thus far the 'porno actresses are degrading' argument has...tangentially related allusions of studies about relationships (which porn doesn't really have between those engaged in it because...its porn) where more prior partners made for less satisfied marriages.
It's not exactly a slam-dunk of 'harm', to say the least. The rest has, of course, been based on 'I find this objectionable'. Which returns us back to 'that's nice, honey' as a response. This is the same conundrum radfems get into--people are influenced by society. They aren't automatons who, if you plug in the proper patterns, will behave the 'right way' and ensure a moral and just society for eons until or unless the icky [x] is transplanted in by the wicked [y]...And those attempts and attitudes attempting to plug in those 'proper patterns' have this amazing tendency to cause a shitload of problems (unintended ones by those who wish for them, to be fair. But problems nonetheless), both in attitude and in practical effect.

Like, for instance, some pretty damned unhappy marriages back in the day that are ignored by this whole line of thought previous because 'stability' is appealed to as some shining beacon of societal good, when the question is quite a bit more complex than that.

 

[FriedCFour]

We seem to have quite immediately drifted from the topic of porn actresses to an entirely different category of people and context of action. Though one where 'don't let your kids interact with these people if you object' is...still a quite viable solution.
Don't let your kids interact with porn stars. Parenting. Problem solved.

That's extremely hard to do so, given just the sheer ease of access to modern porn sites through the internet. All I am trying to establish here is that things can be degrading for society. There isn't a point in arguing that porn is degrading if you believe degrading is 100% subjective and hold to that position, we first would have to agree that things can be degrading not purely based on opinion for an individual or morally degrading for society.