History Western Civilization, Rome and Cyclical History

Skallagrim

Well-known member
France is Roman to the degree that the West is inherently, at least in significant part, a successor culture that emerged from the ruins of Rome. In all Western aspirations towards greatness, we will see at the very least traces of this legacy. And often far more blatant elements of emulation, of course!

We must note that France =/= Franks, as such, and the Frankish Empire is the ancestor of several countries, not just France. Neiher would I call the ruler of the Frankish Empire "the last true Emperor in the West". Rather, in ase of Charlemagne, I'd say he was "the first true Emperor of the West". He inherited the position from Rome, but applied it to the emerging successor-culture. His culture. Our culture.

As in most cases of larger-scale civilisations, the incipient imperial idea didn't result in lasting political unity, but rather in an international order where the imperial authority exists largely in theory. (When you look at it formally, all monarchs in Christendom supposedly recognised the Holy Roman Emperor as outranking them. In practice, this typically didn't go beyond a recognition of his precedence in ceremony, at 'diplomatic' occasions.)

France was ultimately just one of the nation-states in this international order, and a very ambitious one. Which was ultimately eclipsed, as we've discussed a few posts ago. Hypothetically, if Napoleon III had been a genius like the original Nappy, and if Bismarck hadn't existed, and if the Brits had somehow fucked up their foreign affairs... then France may yet have risen to become hegemon of Europe. Thus becoming the founder-state of an Empire that covers all of Europe (but not America, I imagine), which would no doubt be deliberately Roman in many of its forms.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
This is not so much speaking in terms of macro history, more a noting of curious similarities.

But on that subject, France oh so easily could have become a Spenglerian Universal Empire. She almost did so more than once.

As for modern matters, France and Britain are also nuclear powers. They are no match for America, but they've got the big red "fuck off and leave me alone" button.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
I honestly think we will accidentally fall into imperialism much like the Romans. Europes whole identity right now is built on very fragile non truths that they have escaped history.

All it takes is one major war and everything that makes modern Europe function collapses. The us will basically be stuck propping them up until one day we wake up and their a part of an empire we didn't ask for or want.
This already happened, see WW2 and the marshall plan for further details.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
This already happened, see WW2 and the marshall plan for further details.

I firmly belive it will happen again and we will see a final collapse of europes elites collective ego. For the people who could do it you have Russia, Turkey, and a few others as obvious culprits, all you need is a solid war to kick down the idea that Europe has escaped war and conflict as a conflict as a central idea.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
I honestly think we will accidentally fall into imperialism much like the Romans. Europes whole identity right now is built on very fragile non truths that they have escaped history.

All it takes is one major war and everything that makes modern Europe function collapses. The us will basically be stuck propping them up until one day we wake up and their a part of an empire we didn't ask for or want.

This already happened, see WW2 and the marshall plan for further details.

I firmly belive it will happen again and we will see a final collapse of europes elites collective ego. For the people who could do it you have Russia, Turkey, and a few others as obvious culprits, all you need is a solid war to kick down the idea that Europe has escaped war and conflict as a conflict as a central idea.

It's not really a case of either "has happened" or "will happen". It's begun and is still ongoing. The way an international system collapses into a universal empire is one of those escalating processes, where the true inevitability becomes obvious in hindsight. While it's happening, it's a slow and staggered series of events, until--suddenly, and somehow catching many people by complete surprise--the floor drops out beneath you entirely, and it's a fait accompli.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
It's not really a case of either "has happened" or "will happen". It's begun and is still ongoing. The way an international system collapses into a universal empire is one of those escalating processes, where the true inevitability becomes obvious in hindsight. While it's happening, it's a slow and staggered series of events, until--suddenly, and somehow catching many people by complete surprise--the floor drops out beneath you entirely, and it's a fait accompli.

Me, an American:

world-map-stars-strip-8617842.jpg


("Why, yes, I am an aspiring shit-poster — thanks for noticing!" :p)


Seriously, though, while I wouldn't expect an American Empire to literally encircle the whole world (at least, not immediately), I also think it's been establishing some monumental cultural hegemony, in addition to obvious political hegemony.

For context, I recall @Skallagrim arguing elsewhere that as America encompasses the West, we should likewise expect it to shed many of the old "Americanisms" as it becomes a "pan-Western" entity, thereby resulting in a "diluting" effect as it takes on its new holdings and enabling it to assume some of the more "European" traditional forms and structures that others have suggested.

Personally, I think it'll work the opposite way, the groundwork for which is being laid as we speak. As I told him, it seems to me the younger generations throughout the fledgling "Americasphere" are getting more and more "Americanized" through various channels. Regular use of Anglophone idioms and slang, Hollywood-made movies and TV everywhere, American multinationals doing business in their countries, and US politics receiving disproportionate news coverage from abroad, all mediums through which the rest of the Western World seems to be undergoing "Americanization at a distance!" already (despite the "Too little, too late!" objections of PM Meloni and other European nationalists).

Give that process another five or sex decades, and I see Europe and much of the Asia-Pacific becoming (for lack of a better term) "discount Americans" who'll be easily absorbed into the Empire based in America Proper. Holdings that retain their "native" culture for considerably longer, then, will probably be in Africa and the Middle East. As I understand it, they haven't felt the effects of Anglo-American pop cultural domination quite as profoundly, which may make them harder to absorb into the fold straight away.


Not like that'll stop "cross-cultural" exchange in which America's holdings bring foreign foods, foreign souvenirs, foreign traditions, and (of course) foreign words into the fold that "Core" Americans happily take to, of course. But from a macro-historical perspective, that's window-dressing, and I'm inclined to think the fundamental "Americanisms" will remain intact, due to the countervailing effects I outlined above.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
In fact, speaking of Universal Empires:

Right then, here's a question.

Given that Russia essentially blew its chance to be the "Parthia" of the Pax Americana era, (indeed its best hope is to be a discount Pontus now)...who would take that position? Because, and you might laugh, I half suspect Japan is within a shout of being a far more mercantile version of that. Were it not for Article 9 of their Constitution, they'd easily have the second fleet on Earth and be considered a low tier-1 superpower already.

The reason I haven't said China is because, like Russia, it would be exhausted and consumed by Communism.

Then my answer is definitely that China is the prime contender, having divested itself of the ideological trappings of communism far more deftly than Russia did. "As long as it catches mice," indeed! So their position in that regard if fairly good. Naturally, they have major problems under the surface, but so do we. And because of the current world economy's inter-connected nature, the reckoning will come at roughly the same time for all parties. Which does have the handy side-effect that your rivals can't effectively exploit your misfortune (because it's their misfortune, too).

If China, however, completely self-destructs due to a series of major errors (which I don't consider very likely, but let's speculate), there will be avenues of great opportunity for others. India is a big mess right now, far more chaotic than China. So under the current circumstances, I don't see them taking the cake... this round. They may actually have greater opportunity in the longer term (for instance, as the dominant civilisation in the next global cycle?) but that's less relevant now. If China implodes, however, the Indians could benefit by "picking up the slack" to a large degree. Not least because all their less friendly neighbours are propped up by China!

Japan, right now, is a stagnant and geriatric nation. I see no signs of a dynamic response to China's increasingly agressive attitudes, which doesn't bode well at all. If China implodes, however, they'll get a much-needed breather. That gives them enough time for their elderly to basically die off. Which solves the demographic issue. If they then get enough economic vitality (due to China's collapse & the resulting re-distribution of opportunity) to prompt a healthy birth rate, they'll be golden.

But these are long shots.

Yeah...

Been meaning to express some doubts about China being "Persia" to America's "Rome" for a while, but had some difficulty collating them into a coherent text until recently.

Fortunately, I've rectified that now, so sharing the same arguments I presented to @Skallagrim and @Lord Sovereign in a more tidied-up, "bulleted list" form (which may also be of interest to @CastilloVerde):


  • All in all, I actually wonder if the "Century of Humiliation" (and its aftereffects) might count as a more "slow-rolling", but also more "gangrenous" example we can add to the list of macro-historical disruptions Skall wrote about here? While I know the West never ran roughshod over China the same way the Mongols did (Britain colonizing Hong Kong notwithstanding), it's nonetheless true that a certain Western ideology more lethal than Genghis Khan ever was made inroads and established a decades-long stranglehold that lasted longer than the USSR's has. More precisely: Communism.

  • Yes, it's true Deng Xiaoping passed limited market reforms and had a pragmatic spirit of "As long as it catches mice!", so apart from anything else, I think he deserves credit for making the People's Republic (74 years this October and counting) outlast the Soviet Union (just shy of 69 years to the day). Problem is, I actually think his liberalization was too "half-hearted" to shake off Communism's effects completely, and would actually call him (to use of Skallagrim's descriptors from earlier) too much of a "soft doctor" who balked at debriding his patient all the way through. As such, too much of the initial flesh-rot remains and continues to fester within a patient that now feels themselves dying, anyway. Because frankly, all the doctor's "soft cutting" did was buy the patient time — not save them from an early grave. If Communism could kill Russia when the Mongols couldn't, there's a good chance it'll kill China, too.

  • Heck, the ChiCom News Thread on this very site provides scads of examples showing how China's purported economic boom and military prowess is even more smoke-and-mirrors than the fake wealth of the modern West — much less its piss-poor harvests, various environmental disasters, all the second and third-world rural backlands outside the cities, and the looming demographic crisis it has ahead of it the CCP is covering up. Don't know about you, but to me, that sounds an awful lot like the USSR throughout the '80s — and we all know how that ended just a decade later. At the very least, it hints that China's in a far more precarious position than Western observers realize, so I'm giving them demerits already.

  • As a matter of fact, China's population isn't actually projected to grow much larger than it is now. Instead, I think it's projected to shrink after reaching its high-water mark in a few years (here), before eventually being surpassed by a still-growing India (here). No doubt leftover effects from the One-Child Policy play a key role here. I'm aware that China's had quite a few "eccentric" emperors and gone through some rough times that killed lots of people over the years, but to my knowledge, they never placed a hard cap on childbearing designed to actively prevent population growth or replace all the people who were killed. Deng, on the other hand, has — the long-term consequences of which lead to me believe that a hundred years from now, he may very well be more reviled than Mao. Skallagrim laments that Japan has an irreversible demographic decline and that its society has outlasted its culture; China has both that, and lasting structural rot from Communism and Deng's woefully insufficient reforms fucking its prospects over in the long run.

  • Moreover, while I could be me misreading things here, I don't read Xi Jinping serving a third term and cracking down on China's tech sector to be divesting China of its Communist ideological trappings. Seems the opposite to me, actually, and even presuming the Gulag-ing of Uyghur Muslims, welding citizens' doors shut to trap them in their homes, and countless urns and columns of suspicious cars when Covid first broke out here weren't Xi racking up a semi-secret mountain of corpses of his own, I still doubt he or his successors will keep the PRC from collapsing early by skillfully transitioning to the "Neo-Legalist" form of Skallagrim's outline.

  • Knowing the CCP, they'll cling to power and kill far more people to keep it than Mikhail Gorbachev ever could to preserve the USSR. Extrapolating from the demonstrations taking place in China now, my fear is that increasingly CCP retrenchment and crackdowns will only breed ever-greater resentment, desperation, and a sense of betrayal amongst the common people — who, even now, are protesting and feeling demoralized. So, in that sense, the discontent needed for another regime to rise up and take its place is already brewing. Unfortunately, the CCP will make them pay for it in blood, so any "Young Chinamen" coup I see happening is less a fairly swift coup… and more Chinese Civil War II, as the CCP unleashes Tiananmen Square and subsequent "Chinese Great Terror" to crush all dissent — and in so doing, catalyzes a second round of uprisings and warlordism around mid-century that the Neo-Legalist faction of Skall's outline would win by brutalizing everyone else into submission.

  • Certainly, I can see them beheading CCP officials in front of the Great Wall and declaring Mao persona non grata before demolishing his mausoleum, but even worse is how the Neo-Legalists of my imagining (who call themselves the "Heavenly Empire" or "Empire of Greater China" in my own outline) would also be rabidly anti-Western, rather than more or less putting them on ignore (as Skall has implied). The exact degree to which they actively fight Western forces depends on the details, I think, but between British imperialism and the opium trade in the 19th century, Soviet Communism and bullying of China in the 20th century, and American corporations and consumerism "debasing" the Chinese way of life in the 21st century, the self-styled "Heavenly Emperor" may very well concluding it was a cataclysmic mistake for the Middle Kingdom not to go out and "Crush the foreign barbarians before they could crush us!", which would serve as a damning pretext declares for the self-styled "Heavenly Emperor" to declare a scarily Hitlerian "Century of Vengeance" to avenge China's humiliation at the hands of Western imperialism and its "Legacy of ideological poison!" decades earlier.

  • Pair that with traditional Han xenophobia the Neo-Legalists would stoke, and I genuinely fear the Neo-Legalist regime will be less of a stone-cold "Chinese Eichmann", and more like a loony "Chinese Himmler"… alongside "Chinese Jim Jones", "Chinese Savonarola", and maybe even "Chinese Pol Pot" all serving in the same Young Chinamen cabal together and competing with the Western "Neo-Crusaders" (led by American "Caesar") to decide who can unleash the bigger Endlösung of the two.

  • But even then, I doubt China's reconquest of what it once held will go very swimmingly. For instance, my own take has Japan, Korea, most of Indochina, and maybe even the Philippines and Australia bond over centuries of bad blood with China as the US retreats from the Pacific. Eventually, they develop their own domestic arms industries and form a Pacific-wide military alliance specifically to contain China and stonewall whatever invasions it launches. In essence, a "Great Wall Around China" that begins to close in as soon as the Heavenly Empire commences its invasion of Taiwan in the 2060s, which the rest step in to defend. After all, Putin's currently having a hard enough time taking Ukraine and Hitler didn't succeed in accomplishing Operation Barbarossa, which is more or less what Neo-Legalist China would be doing by both wasting precious resources exterminating "undesirables" and fighting a multi-front war in a gambit to retake Taiwan, Japan and Korea, all of Indochina, and potentially even the Philippines and Australia in short succession while simultaneously launching forays into the warlord-dominated Russian Far East. At that point, I think China would be biting off way more than it can chew, and making much the same mistakes Hitler made that led to Germany overstretching — and eventually, losing.

  • There's also the "wildcard" option in which China lets loose yet another pandemic that makes Covid look like a total nothing-burger. Besides how we're long overdue for another catastrophic plague outbreak, anyway, China has also long been Pathogen Central (TM), as shown by its record of cooking up maladies that range from the Black Death then to Covid now. Hell, the current regime has had close calls with far worse strains (such as the 2014 Yumen plague incident here) — and those are only the cases we know about! Seen in that light, I think it's only a matter of time before a something else breaches containment and culminates in an oubreak of "Red Death" that wipes out anywhere from tens to hundreds of millions in just a few years. Pretty much how it happens in my own outline, anyway, save for the "Great Wall Around China" enacting blanket embargoes, harsh containment procedures, and sinking all Chinese vessels in sight, which more or less confines Red Death to the Chinese mainland and kills a couple hundred million Chinese citizens in the process — throwing its already-horrible demographic imbalance into disarray and prompting a national collapse that propels the Neo-Legalists to power. While there's little evidence to prove it, many suspect it was a CCP bioweapon released to cull "disloyal cohorts" of the population, on top of all the forced disappearances, networks of internment camps, and massacre-style crackdowns already taking place throughout the country by the time it leaks out.

  • In summary: I think the combined factors of the CCP having insurmountable structural rot, the "wildcard" option in which they cook up a "Red Death" super-bug, Neo-Legalist blowback running it into the ground even further, and China's neighbors having time to form a "Great Wall Around China" that stops the Chinese reconquest in its tracks will render it more a "Ptolemaic Egypt" that burns through its reserves and drops dead from exhaustion — which, if anything, is arguably more ignominious than how actual Ptolemaic Egypt went out.


When all's said and done, I think a China that aspires to become the "Persia" of our age is in way over its head. More likely than not, it'll suffer miserably for its trouble, on top of Deng being too much of a "soft doctor" to truly save it and his One-Child Policy fucking its macro-historical prospects over.

Granted, it could still be reborn in a few centuries after it drops dead around 2100 or so, but the meantime is more than long enough for an ascendant India to take the western bulk, while America nibbles the eastern coastline, nabs Hong Kong, and once again welcomes Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and Southeast Asia into the greater Empire. Maybe even form a friendly "interaction sphere" with India via their neighboring Indochinese holdings, as well, though that strays a bit beyond the scope of the question.


Personally, I could've gotten behind "China as our Persia!" if the Nationalists had won and charted a less gruesome and maladjusted path over the last 70 to 80 years. Hell, I could've even forgiven all the PRC's self-sabotage if the madness ended with Mao's death and China liberalized more fully (read: completely got rid of its Communist trappings and removed every last bit of leftover structural rot) immediately afterwards. But now, my confidence is waning — and eventually, will probably vanish altogether, once the gloves come off for real and the Chinese people are finally through with CCP rule. :(
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Personally, I think it'll work the opposite way, the groundwork for which is being laid as we speak. As I told him, it seems to me the younger generations throughout the fledgling "Americasphere" are getting more and more "Americanized" through various channels. Regular use of Anglophone idioms and slang, Hollywood-made movies and TV everywhere, American multinationals doing business in their countries, and US politics receiving disproportionate news coverage from abroad, all mediums through which the rest of the Western World seems to be undergoing "Americanization at a distance!" already (despite the "Too little, too late!" objections of PM Meloni and other European nationalists).

Give that process another five or sex decades, and I see Europe and much of the Asia-Pacific becoming (for lack of a better term) "discount Americans" who'll be easily absorbed into the Empire based in America Proper. Holdings that retain their "native" culture for considerably longer, then, will probably be in Africa and the Middle East. As I understand it, they haven't felt the effects of Anglo-American pop cultural domination quite as profoundly, which may make them harder to absorb into the fold straight away.
I would not overestimate the capacity for Americanization.
In the history of cultures, the younger ones always get absorbed by the older ones as soon as they become more or less one.

In the end, it was Rome that succumbed to Hellenization and not Greece to Romanization.

Although it remained Rome, the Greek influence was so strong that it was able to overshadow much of Romanism. To finally prevail over Romanism with the moment Rome split in two.
Byzantium was a unified Greek despotism with a Roman name.

To put it briefly, Rome may have taken Greece but it was Greece that conquered Rome.

This will be the case once America takes over Europe, it will be the Americans who will try to fit in with the Europeans, to eventually become more European than the Europeans themselves.

Of course, here we have a big difference, Europe does not have one unified culture that differs in details like the Greek, but many different ones with different traditions, resulting from really different histories.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
I would not overestimate the capacity for Americanization.
In the history of cultures, the younger ones always get absorbed by the older ones as soon as they become more or less one.

In the end, it was Rome that succumbed to Hellenization and not Greece to Romanization.

Although it remained Rome, the Greek influence was so strong that it was able to overshadow much of Romanism. To finally prevail over Romanism with the moment Rome split in two.
Byzantium was a unified Greek despotism with a Roman name.

To put it briefly, Rome may have taken Greece but it was Greece that conquered Rome.

This will be the case once America takes over Europe, it will be the Americans who will try to fit in with the Europeans, to eventually become more European than the Europeans themselves.

Of course, here we have a big difference, Europe does not have one unified culture that differs in details like the Greek, but many different ones with different traditions, resulting from really different histories.

Maybe, but while America and Europe may fill the same macro-historical "niches" as Rome and Greece did, we shouldn't directly "copy-paste" the way it went in the Classical World onto the Modern Western backdrop, either.

Already explained why above, though to clarify: I think the fact American media, pop culture, and business throughout the Western World is far, far more "24-7-365" than attempts to Romanize the Greeks ever were may shape the nature of the American Empire in ways that preserve more of the old "Americanisms" than the number of old "Romanisms" the Roman Empire inherited. Certainly, it doesn't disprove the overall macro-historical thesis @Skallagrim outlined, but I'd say there'll be significantly more "wiggle-room" than most would think in terms of "High Culture-specific" details — and in my mind, this is one of them.
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Maybe, but while America and Europe may fill the same macro-historical "niches" as Rome and Greece did, we shouldn't directly "copy-paste" the way it went in the Classical World onto the Modern Western backdrop, either.

Already explained why above, though to clarify: I think the fact American media, pop culture, and business throughout the Western World is far, far more "24-7-365" than attempts to Romanize the Greeks ever were may shape the nature of the American Empire in ways that preserve more of the old "Americanisms" than the number of old "Romanisms" that the Roman Empire inherited. Certainly, it doesn't disprove the overall thesis, but I'd say there's more "wiggle-room" in terms of the details — and in my mind, this is one of them.
I would say more that cultures from the same origin will succumb the most. That is, the British will become more American, the Canadians and so on.

Then there will be cultures that America impresses but do not have their own counterparts of what is most American through as they fit in, they will gain American characteristics. (I believe one such will be German).

Cultures, on the other hand, which are further from Americanness and have analogous traditions similar to those of America, will by their very nature repel Americanization. Only on the surface will they have American characteristics, which in reality are their own characteristics. (I'm shooting that Dutch).

The last separate group are cultures that have survived attempts at erasure, these will always be resistant to Americanization, and no matter what amount of soft power is used, it will eventually fizzle out like a duck. (This is where I see Polish).
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
I would say more that cultures from the same origin will succumb the most. That is, the British will become more American, the Canadians and so on.

Then there will be cultures that America impresses but do not have their own counterparts of what is most American through as they fit in, they will gain American characteristics. (I believe one such will be German).

Cultures, on the other hand, which are further from Americanness and have analogous traditions similar to those of America, will by their very nature repel Americanization. Only on the surface will they have American characteristics, which in reality are their own characteristics. (I'm shooting that Dutch).

The last separate group are cultures that have survived attempts at erasure, these will always be resistant to Americanization, and no matter what amount of soft power is used, it will eventually fizzle out like a duck. (This is where I see Polish).

Okay, seems like a perfectly reasonable alternative to me.

Upon further reflection, I suppose the way I imagine it going (described here and here) might actually work to stymie mass-homogenization of local cultures somewhat by being so decentralized and allowing locales to enjoy extensive autonomy.

That is, being a mercantile and quasi-corporate "Commerce League" where membership is voluntary, but the fees paid in exchange fund a League-wide military, administrative directorate, and treasury that sticks to the Gold Standard — all while remaining hands-off and uninterested in "micro-level" affairs otherwise. Granted, they'd still have to observe the League Constitution and will probably speak English (or by that point, "American") as an official language, but culturally, I can certainly imagine them retaining distinct local and regional identities that make them less "American" in their daily customs and mannerisms than you'd expect British and Canadian subjects to be (just as you've said).


But even then, I think all the preexisting "Anglosphere" nations that Imperial America readily incorporates would still be much more thoroughly Americanized than its Eastern European, African, Middle Eastern, or Pacific holdings (save for maybe the Philippines) would be. Can't say whether it'll happen for sure, but it'd be funny as fuck if schoolteachers in 3023 have to explain that Canada was once an entirely separate country before America absorbed it — not something that belonged to the US from the get-go! :LOL:
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Okay, seems like a perfectly reasonable alternative to me.

Upon further reflection, I suppose the way I imagine it going (described here and here) might actually work to stymie mass-homogenization of local cultures somewhat by being so decentralized and allowing locales to enjoy extensive autonomy.

That is, being a mercantile and quasi-corporate "Commerce League" where membership is voluntary, but the fees paid in exchange fund a League-wide military, administrative directorate, and treasury that sticks to the Gold Standard — all while remaining hands-off and uninterested in "micro-level" affairs otherwise. Granted, they'd still have to observe the League Constitution and will probably speak English (or by that point, "American") as an official language, but culturally, I can certainly imagine them retaining distinct local and regional identities that make them less "American" in their daily customs and mannerisms than you'd expect British and Canadian subjects to be (just as you've said).


But even then, I think all the preexisting "Anglosphere" nations that Imperial America would incorporate would still be much more thoroughly Americanized than its Eastern European, African, Middle Eastern, or Pacific holdings (sans the Philippines) would be. Can't say whether it'll happen for sure, but it'd be funny as fuck if schoolteachers in 3023 have to explain that Canada was once an entirely separate country before America absorbed it — not something that belonged to the US from the get-go! :LOL:

The roman empire once you were conqured was also pretty hands off and for the most part respected local customs. Except for us Jews but we always get fucked over when it comes to history.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
The roman empire once you were conqured was also pretty hands off and for the most part respected local customs. Except for us Jews but we always get fucked over when it comes to history.

I'm aware, and I'm sorry your people were dealt such a rough hand over the centuries. :(

Unfortunately... I think you're in for another round of genocidal persecution in another five or six decades, no thanks to Neo-Caesar (or if not him, then certainly Neo-Antony) casting the world into the fire and eradicting perceived enemies left, right, and center. Heck, my own take has Neo-Caesar's regime unleash what's later called "The Greater Shoah", with Hitler's Holocaust now termed "The Lesser Shoah" that provided Neo-Caesar a blueprint for how to single out his own list of "undesirables" for total extermination.
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Upon further reflection, I suppose the way I imagine it going (described here and here) might actually work to stymie mass-homogenization of local cultures somewhat by being so decentralized and allowing locales to enjoy extensive autonomy.
*shakes head*.
Well not too, if there's anything Polish history has taught me, it's that a decentralized state can be an effective way for a dominant culture to eat others.

The Commowealth was really a loose state at the local level with respect for local autonomy at a broad level for all cultures and nationalities.

This did not prevent anything from eating away at Polishness, much of Lithuania, Belarus or almost all of the Ruthenian elite.

If it were not for the partitions, a Lithuanian, Belarusian or Ukrainian would simply mean as much as a Mazovian or Pomeranian. A Pole from Lithuania, Belarus or Ukraine.

At the same time note that the most resistant group was exactly those who were similar to Poles and the least who were not.
than its Eastern European
Strangely enough you call the Fourth Commonwealth.
say whether it'll happen for sure, but it'd be funny as fuck if schoolteachers in 3023 have to explain that Canada was once an entirely separate country before America absorbed it — not something that belonged to the US from the get-go!
Even stranger that you think anyone would care that the Borderlands of the Far West were once not Polish.;)
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Jokes aside, this is rather to be expected, although one should always remember that history likes to play on people's expectations.

It's just as well that in the 31 century, the US may already be a memory, torn into small pieces and Canada and more specifically Canada Proper a completely separate country, one of many in America.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Jokes aside, this is rather to be expected, although one should always remember that history likes to play on people's expectations.

It's just as well that in the 31 century, the US may already be a memory, torn into small pieces and Canada and more specifically Canada Proper a completely separate country, one of many in America.

Honestly, for most countries making it a couple centuries is a big freaking deal.

If america lasts as long as the roman empire before it that is a very good run.
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Honestly, for most countries making it a couple centuries is a big freaking deal.

If america lasts as long as the roman empire before it that is a very good run.
I see that colleagues like challenges, Rome lasted two thousand years. America, for now, is three hundred, and not a whole one.

And seriously, it's not difficult, contrary to appearances.

Poland is quietly 1057 years old.
If you count only statehood 1057-305=752 years. Long what?

And only thanks to a series of unlucky coincidences we have to add 123 years without Poland, although per se this is just propaganda. Poland existed, albeit as a real union with Russia, the Congress Kingdom and, of course, the Duchy of Warsaw.

America will live quietly for a long time, although it varies. The US might as well shrink to a few states in a few centuries, which doesn't automatically make it cease to be America.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
For context, I recall @Skallagrim arguing elsewhere that as America encompasses the West, we should likewise expect it to shed many of the old "Americanisms" as it becomes a "pan-Western" entity, thereby resulting in a "diluting" effect as it takes on its new holdings and enabling it to assume some of the more "European" traditional forms and structures that others have suggested.

Personally, I think it'll work the opposite way, the groundwork for which is being laid as we speak. As I told him, it seems to me the younger generations throughout the fledgling "Americasphere" are getting more and more "Americanized" through various channels. Regular use of Anglophone idioms and slang, Hollywood-made movies and TV everywhere, American multinationals doing business in their countries, and US politics receiving disproportionate news coverage from abroad, all mediums through which the rest of the Western World seems to be undergoing "Americanization at a distance!" already (despite the "Too little, too late!" objections of PM Meloni and other European nationalists).

Give that process another five or sex decades, and I see Europe and much of the Asia-Pacific becoming (for lack of a better term) "discount Americans" who'll be easily absorbed into the Empire based in America Proper. Holdings that retain their "native" culture for considerably longer, then, will probably be in Africa and the Middle East. As I understand it, they haven't felt the effects of Anglo-American pop cultural domination quite as profoundly, which may make them harder to absorb into the fold straight away.

I would not overestimate the capacity for Americanization.
In the history of cultures, the younger ones always get absorbed by the older ones as soon as they become more or less one.

In the end, it was Rome that succumbed to Hellenization and not Greece to Romanization.

Although it remained Rome, the Greek influence was so strong that it was able to overshadow much of Romanism. To finally prevail over Romanism with the moment Rome split in two.
Byzantium was a unified Greek despotism with a Roman name.

To put it briefly, Rome may have taken Greece but it was Greece that conquered Rome.

This will be the case once America takes over Europe, it will be the Americans who will try to fit in with the Europeans, to eventually become more European than the Europeans themselves.

Of course, here we have a big difference, Europe does not have one unified culture that differs in details like the Greek, but many different ones with different traditions, resulting from really different histories.

I would say more that cultures from the same origin will succumb the most. That is, the British will become more American, the Canadians and so on.

Then there will be cultures that America impresses but do not have their own counterparts of what is most American through as they fit in, they will gain American characteristics. (I believe one such will be German).

Cultures, on the other hand, which are further from Americanness and have analogous traditions similar to those of America, will by their very nature repel Americanization. Only on the surface will they have American characteristics, which in reality are their own characteristics. (I'm shooting that Dutch).

The last separate group are cultures that have survived attempts at erasure, these will always be resistant to Americanization, and no matter what amount of soft power is used, it will eventually fizzle out like a duck.

As is well-established by my many previous comments on the matter, I rather think that in every single case of a universal empire being established, the result was an imperial culture-- which did not correspond neatly to the pre-existing culture of the incipient nation.

Specifically, while the statement "actually Greece conquered Rome" is stretching it a bit, that case can be made. Indeed, proponents of "the old Republic" (most especially Cato Maior), in the period leading up to the true decline of that republic, warned against "Hellenism". And they mentioned the Greek influence the most because it was the most prevalent, but essentially it was a sort of "globalism" or "cosmopolitanism" that they opposed. They saw that the old Romanitas -- the national identity of a distinct Roman ethnic group -- was becoming diluted.

We see this now as well, and indeed "America First!" is an expression of such ideas. There are some users on this site who fly completely off the handle whenever the notion of America becoming a universa empire is brought up. These users (and people like them) vehemtly insist that America is unique, and most remain a republic, and that foreigners can never understand this, and blah blah blah. So on and so forth. If they paid attention to history, they'd know that they represent a doomed strain of though. But they adhere to this way of thinking precisely because they (incorrectly) believe that their favoured nation -- America -- is somehow outside of history. (And in that, they are regrettable akin to modernists, who think that their favoured period -- "modernity" -- is outside of history.)

The historical truth is that Romanitas didn't die. It changed. Rome, in conquering, was conquered. In changing others, she was changed herself. Because in overflowing the world, the world flows also into you. That is truth of the world-empire. That is why it's never just (over even "mostly") a one-way street.

The main philosophy of Imperial Rome was stoicism; a Greek school. The language favoured by the elite was Greek, not Latin. The religion that ultimately capitvated the Empire was Christianity, originally a Jewish sect. The weapons and gear of the military changed, in ways influenced by the best alternatives and the smartest innovations that all the other peoples within the Empire could contribute.

And in exchange, all these things were... made Roman. And even as Rome embraced these influences, she exerted her own formative influence upon all others. Even as the Roman elite came to correspond in erudite Greek, the masses of a thousand nations learned to speak a version of Latin.

This was the new Romanitas. Forever changing and bringing change. Without question it was Roman. But the Romans of the old Republic would not have recognised it.

In the same way, in the event of an American universal Empire, that which is understood to be "American" in AD 2400 will not be immediately recognisble as such to the Americans living today. But such is the nature of time. As the Greeks said it: you do not step into the same river twice.



Not like that'll stop "cross-cultural" exchange in which America's holdings bring foreign foods, foreign souvenirs, foreign traditions, and (of course) foreign words into the fold that "Core" Americans happily take to, of course. But from a macro-historical perspective, that's window-dressing, and I'm inclined to think the fundamental "Americanisms" will remain intact, due to the countervailing effects I outlined above.
I think the fact American media, pop culture, and business throughout the Western World is far, far more "24-7-365" than attempts to Romanize the Greeks ever were may shape the nature of the American Empire in ways that preserve more of the old "Americanisms" than the number of old "Romanisms" the Roman Empire inherited. Certainly, it doesn't disprove the overall macro-historical thesis @Skallagrim outlined, but I'd say there'll be significantly more "wiggle-room" than most would think in terms of "High Culture-specific" details — and in my mind, this is one of them.

From historical precedent, and as outlined above, I rather think the trend may be reversed. America may introduce many outward-facing elements across the world (what you call window-dressing, although I'm not that dismissive of it); and at the same time, I rather think that much of the deeper stuff may actually come from Europe instead. There's a reason the Romans adopted Greek philosophy: the Greeks had been thinking about it a bit longer.

After all, if America wants to think about -- say, scholasticism... then they'll have to turn to the European tradition. All of this was being thought up in Europe before Columbus was even born, you see.

This is not to imply that America is some hollow entity that will exert political power, and then be "filled up" with European culture. Rather, it enforces the notion that the accretion of a Universal world-system (and its culture) is always a process of fusion and synthesis. The expectation that "it'll be different this time!" is a dangerous one, because it's always tempting, and almost always wrong. So a would caution against that.



Jokes aside, this is rather to be expected, although one should always remember that history likes to play on people's expectations.

It's just as well that in the 31 century, the US may already be a memory, torn into small pieces and Canada and more specifically Canada Proper a completely separate country, one of many in America.

Certainly true. Although I'd note that, like China, North America is actually ideally positioned to "fall back together" in a recurring cycle of rebirths. It has oceans on two sides, the Gulf and the Isthmus of Panama on one side, and the Arctic on the last remaing side. Better natural boundaries don't exist! Meanwhile, the Mississippi basin s basically the ur-example of a civilisational heartland. So America itself may well be an "eternal civilisation" that, like China, always falls back together again after ever period of division.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
This is not to imply that America is some hollow entity that will exert political power, and then be "filled up" with European culture. Rather, it enforces the notion that the accretion of a Universal world-system (and its culture) is always a process of fusion and synthesis. The expectation that "it'll be different this time!" is a dangerous one, because it's always tempting, and almost always wrong. So a would caution against that.

All right, many thanks for clarifying.

I suppose "window-dressing" was the wrong word, as I'm not doubting major cross-cultural exchange of some sort would take place. Mostly, I'm probably a bit more wary of the idea that America will pattern itself off of Rome to quite that degree, due to the other extreme being full-tilt parallelism that casts it as a Modern carbon-copy (which I'm aware you're not arguing for). That said, that could also be the Yankee in me talking, too; as you can imagine, it's tempting for me to instinctively bold the "American" in "American Empire", even if the name does become more of a misnomer with time.

Otherwise, most everything else here looks "interesting", for lack of a better term. We'll only know for sure when it all goes down, I suppose, though on the off-chance North America becomes another "eternal" civilization with a fragmentation-and-reunification cycle akin to China's, there will undoubtedly be many, many different variations of America that rise and fall throughout the ensuing centuries.


Of course... perhaps the most ironic possibility that comes to mind for me is if in the 41st century, the North American civilization of that scenario gets unnaturally disrupted by "ideological spillover" from some far-future African and/or Indo-Pacific High Culture, in much the same way that I argued modern China has in my most recent massive post here. Weird how unexpected ironies can crop up where you never see them coming, really! 😆
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
I have a question.

If he'd lived to 1945 and beyond, what would Spengler have made of the War and the Final Solution? He wasn't overfond of Jews as I understand, but I reckon he wouldn't have approved to put it mildly.

Big question is though, how would he have folded the Second World War into his thesis of cyclical history?
 

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