Who would have made a pretty good Mara Jade BTW.
Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind
- Thread starter Urabrask Revealed
- Start date
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
Can't disagree so I shan't. The SW setting in general has a weird timeline where there's no real conflict up until suddenly there's a galaxy-wide one so there's huge gaps where there's no AH to be had. The Stark Hyperspace War put Nute Gunray, Tarkin, and Chancellor Valorum into their pre-Clone Wars positions so a change there would have far-reaching consequences on the clone wars and the eventual Empire.
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
I thought the mandalorian wars was considered the biggest conflict, as historians often compared the two. Has Swtor retconed that?
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
As far as big I'll agree you're right, but the Mandalorian Wars were, like, 4000 years ago by the time of the Clone Wars so I perceive them as ancient history that AH writers would use about as often as people in our Timeline use the Egypt-Ethiopia Nile Wars, except far less 'cause that was only about 1800 years ago for us.
That is to say, never.
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
More like the Republic deliberately forgot, or scaled down the official record of the conflict, most likely at the Jedi's urging. You know, as part of the Ruusan Reformation's theme of starting over by forgetting the Sith ever existed, the better to keep vulnerable young Jedi-to-be from getting exposed to potential temptations. The only ones who probably remember the full scale of the Old Sith Wars - technically, the Mandalorian Wars should count as one of those, as it was one of Darth Vitiate's vassals who goaded Mandalore the Ultimate into a war of conquest - are the Mandalorians, and even they suffered an attempted, Jedi-backed, cultural genocide by the latter part of the so-called Golden Age of the Republic. Specifically, Duchess Satine's New Mandalorian Movement, which seemed to practically abandon the Resol'nare, i.e. everything that made the Mandalorians Mandalorians.
Basically, just another instance of the Jedi sticking their heads into the sand because they were too fearful of facing reality.
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Basileus_Komnenos
Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
Honestly if I were in the Star Wars universe and had force abilities, I'd probably secretly go my own way. I'd probably spend a while learning in the Jedi Temple and gaining as much knowledge and info as I could about the Force.
I'd probably then seek out some Sith holocrons learning about the Dark side of the force as well.
It honestly surprises me how dumb the Jedi and Sith are for restricting themselves to one side of the force. Both sides have their own unique merits as well. To me the terms "Dark Side" and "Light Side" are misonomers that forces people to view it in a largely dogmatic framework.
As for Dark side corruption, I feel like a normal well-adjusted person would likely be pretty immune from it, since it seems like those who fall to it are largely already emotionally stunted fools as only an idiot would only really be ruled by their passions or violent emotions such as rage.
So, become the Jensaraai in a nutshell.
Basileus_Komnenos
Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
In a superficial sense yes. Though they're another pseudo-religious cult like the Jedi. If anything I'd probably be less altruistic and instead would create my own military force which I'd use to eventually build a sort of mercenary unit that would allow me to eventually gain a planet, or set of planets a little fiefdom of sorts.
LindyAF
Well-known member
Alternate theory is that dark side corruption is extremely common and hard to resist for force users, and that's why the only major long-running bunch of force users that aren't dark side are a extremely restrictive religious group that emotionally stunts themselves.
Basileus_Komnenos
Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
To be fair though, the Jedi aren't really good examples to hold against the Sith. Plus most of the Sith we see in Star Wars were former Jedi. The Jedi are emotionally stunted which leaves them unable to control or properly express themselves. The sith reminds me of how people who shelter their children for years, or control them to extreme end up lashing out once they reach a breaking point, or expressing themselves in a spontaneous and uncontrollable manner.
A modern example of this is a lot of Child actors after they leave their respective roles. Just look at what happened to Miley Cyrus after Hannah Montana ended.
The Jedi are fundamentalist zealots though that try to snuff out any dissenting or non-orthdox force sect. The major reason why they are so unchallenged is that they have institutional power with their positing being intertwined with the Republic. This allows them a major advantage that allows them to pre-emptively snuff out any competing narrative or ideology before it really takes off from its early stages.
The sith before they truly became the evil organization we know them as, were formed by a splinter segment of Jedi who disagreed with the Order's teachings. They then intermingled with the Sith species who formed a basic civilization which just started venturing into space. The Jedi after learning about them instead of negotiating, they enacted a full on genocide of the Sith destroying their culture, people, and history. This instilled a deep hatred in the subsequent Sith which led to an increasingly escalating cycle of hatred between the two polarized Dark side and Light side adherents of the Force.
If anything I'd probably take a Revan-esque approach to the Jedi and probably have a group of followers who eventually leaves the order maybe triggering some public scandal that disgraces the Order in the eyes of the public. By Transcending the idiocy of the Sith and Jedi, I'd probably recruit more Force users building a mercenary company of sorts. The best way to do this though would be to gain sanction or recognition from the Senate/the Chancellor. I feel like the Republic would likely approve as to have another entity to play off against the Jedi to diminish their influence in government considering how they're an aloof and unelected group with a lot of power.
They also are essentially a dogmatic para-military group that has massive potential to turn against the Senate especially as the Republic lacks a real military of its own. They tried this with Palaptine, and while this was with good intentions, it sets a bad precedent considering how Jedi have served in governmental posts and have attained the high office of Supreme Chancellor in the past.
Bassoe
Well-known member
Last panel should've been "Roger Roger" rather than "Aight".
Probably, but I didn’t make the meme, just shared it.
Oh good Lord this is gonna suck so hard...
I have NO faith in Disney or Dave F to do Thrawn right.
...you realize the Jedi only went in for genocide after the Sith Empire had declared and launched a war of conquest on the Old Republic, right?
I’m not saying that the Jedi’s genocide was a good thing, but let us not forget that the Sith were not innocent babies who didn’t do nothing and that even back then the Sith were an empire based upon slavery and dark sorcery.
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
That still doesn't excuse the Sith Holocaust, or the Jedi's insistence that they and they alone know the Will of the Force, to the point they actively suppress and discriminate against other Force sects in the galaxy. If there's anything remotely - no matter how small - right about TLJ, it was Disney!Luke's assertion that the Force does not belong to the Jedi.
The moment the Jedi agreed to support the Republic in the Sith Holocaust, and actively participated in it, they lost any and all moral high ground from which to condemn the Sith Empire's own faults and wrongdoings. They have simply become the Sith Empire's mirrors, if not worse, thanks to their outright hypocrisy.
And that's why I primarily play Imperial characters. The idea of having to take orders, much less fight for such disgusting maggots, outright turns my stomach.
LindyAF
Well-known member
IMO this rather depends on how you view the Sith.
If the Sith and the Dark Side are inevitably insane and evil (as seems to be the case in both the Original and Prequel trilogies) or even just have an extremely strong tendency toward insanity and evil (as seems to be the case in all SW media) than yes, I think destroying holocrons and dark side sacred sites is probably justified. Allowing them to exist is just going to lead to more people being exposed to dark side corruption and turning into insane psychopaths.
Even if this isn't the case, IMO the Jedi have every reason to believe that it is, since basically every time a breakaway sect says "what if we studied the dark side" they end up launching an attack on the Jedi and causing a galactic war. This had happened like four times by that point, and the dark side sect was either confirmed to be or likely to be the aggressor every time.
If the Sith and the Dark Side are inevitably insane and evil (as seems to be the case in both the Original and Prequel trilogies) or even just have an extremely strong tendency toward insanity and evil (as seems to be the case in all SW media) than yes, I think destroying holocrons and dark side sacred sites is probably justified. Allowing them to exist is just going to lead to more people being exposed to dark side corruption and turning into insane psychopaths.
Even if this isn't the case, IMO the Jedi have every reason to believe that it is, since basically every time a breakaway sect says "what if we studied the dark side" they end up launching an attack on the Jedi and causing a galactic war. This had happened like four times by that point, and the dark side sect was either confirmed to be or likely to be the aggressor every time.
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
Wrong. The Legions of Xendor struck first during the First Great Schism, yes, but only after the Jedi had assembled a huge army specifically to bring them back into line. The Jedi Alchemists of the Second Great Schism only turned their powers against the rest of the Order after the Jedi attempted to force them back into orthodoxy. And while the Sith did strike first during the Great Hyperspace War, again, that does not excuse the Sith Holocaust that followed.
So, no. The Jedi are not blameless, nor are they justified in their fanatical belief in their own moral and spiritual infallibility, and everyone else should just kiss their feet or die by their lightsabers.
So, no. The Jedi are not blameless, nor are they justified in their fanatical belief in their own moral and spiritual infallibility, and everyone else should just kiss their feet or die by their lightsabers.
LindyAF
Well-known member
Per Ajunta Pall's wookiepedia page it was him and his followers that declared war on the Jedi, not the other way around. Sure, the Jedi said "no more alchemy" but Ajunta Pall and his followers reaction wasn't to attempt to break from the order or to to continue their practices in secret or flee into exile and continue their experiments on some other world (as they eventually did, after losing the war). Nope, first reaction was to declare war on the Jedi.
Sure, the Sith launching a war of aggression in the Great Hyperspace war doesn't justify destroying the Sith. There doesn't appear to have been any concentrated effort to exterminate the Sith as a species, and any "holocaust" was rather a cultural one - destruction of Sith artifacts and religious sites. That is IMO justified if the Sith culture and dark side use is inherently evil or has an extremely strong tendency toward evil, which in canon it pretty clearly does.