Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Me personally. Reject the force, go space marine. Force users have proven to be one trick ponies. The most memorable thing about them is their lightsabers.

Edit: here me out. What are the jedi people love the most Anakin, Luke, Ahsoka, Obi-Wan what do all three of these characters have in common. Journies. At one time Luke's journey to becoming a jedi was a metaphor for growing up and becoming wise. Same with Ahsoka and to a lesser extent obi-wan, but without that personal journey a jedi IS little more than a space wizard with superpowers with a little bit of buddaism sprinckled in, and the force itself can't really figure out what it is. Is it an enegergy field, is it a collective of micro-organisms, is it a living manifestation of the universe that interacts with people via avatars, ect. The ST is essentially all the flaws of the PT brought to their natural conclusion.

clone army>>90% of the jedi order.

 

[LindyAF]

tbh then out of universe you just want mil sci-fi... which plenty of other stuff does better than star wars.

 

[Bacle]

Me personally. Reject the force, go space marine. Force users have proven to be one trick ponies. The most memorable thing about them is their lightsabers.

Edit: here me out. What are the jedi people love the most Anakin, Luke, Ahsoka, Obi-Wan what do all three of these characters have in common. Journies. At one time Luke's journey to becoming a jedi was a metaphor for growing up and becoming wise. Same with Ahsoka and to a lesser extent obi-wan, but without that personal journey a jedi IS little more than a space wizard with superpowers with a little bit of buddaism sprinckled in, and the force itself can't really figure out what it is. Is it an enegergy field, is it a collective of micro-organisms, is it a living manifestation of the universe that interacts with people via avatars, ect. The ST is essentially all the flaws of the PT brought to their natural conclusion.

clone army>>90% of the jedi order.

Yep; Mando's learned long ago how to fight and beat Force users of all types.

A lot of the galaxy would be better off if they had followed the Mando's in that regard.

The galaxy would be much better off with fewer Force users in it, fucking up the lives of everyday people.

Like 9/10 major wars in the Galaxy are started or escalated by Force users of one stripe or another.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

tbh then out of universe you just want mil sci-fi... which plenty of other stuff does better than star wars.

well yeah why else star wars is all but dead after the ST?

 

[LindyAF]

well yeah why else star wars is all but dead after the ST?

Star wars isn't primarily mil scifi though.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Star wars isn't primarily mil scifi though.

dude the whole first movie was a military mission.

 

[LindyAF]

dude the whole first movie was a military mission.

The whole first movie had literally zero main characters who were in any military.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

no they were essentially a band of freelances that did a search and rescue mission mixed with
Espionage for a terriost cell or reactionary military faction depending on your point of view.

 

[LindyAF]

no they were essentially a band of freelances that did a search and rescue mission mixed with
Espionage for a terriost cell or reactionary military faction depending on your point of view.

Yes, that's not mil sci fi. That's a sci fi adventure movie looked at through a military lens.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Yes, that's not mil sci fi. That's a sci fi adventure movie looked at through a military lens.

ok then what do you mean by mil sci fi?

 

[LindyAF]

ok then what do you mean by mil sci fi?

Think of sci fi stories that have the main characters going through boot camp on screen (although this is generally sufficient but not necessary). Starship troopers is a very pure example. Sci fi stories that have all or most of the significant characters in a formal military, and the story centers around what they do in their job as a member of the military (not retired people, freelancers, etc). Also, you'll know the ranks and chain of command that the characters are in. Typically puts a lot of focus on the specific gear and vehicles, etc. Think stuff that talks about the rpm of their laser blaster. The focus is also almost always on basic or standard infantry or marines, and lionizing them. Alternatively could be a Master-and-Commander IN SPACE novel about like a specific military spaceship.

 

[StormEagle]

The sith aren’t helped by the fact that their philosophy naturally attracts madmen like Palpatine and Vitiate, monsters like Nihilus, or cretins like Sion.

Doesn’t exactly help the dark sides image when the predominant sect associated with it is filled with cackling madmen, sociopathic tyrants, or emotionally unstable wrecks.

People also seem to forget that the Great Hyperspace War was started because Naga Sadow wanted something to cement his rule over the empire.

Doesn’t exactly excuse the following genocide, but let’s not pretend that the Sith were innocent lambs in that one.

 

[TyrantTriumphant]

The sith aren’t helped by the fact that their philosophy naturally attracts madmen like Palpatine and Vitiate, monsters like Nihilus, or cretins like Sion.

Doesn’t exactly help the dark sides image when the predominant sect associated with it is filled with cackling madmen, sociopathic tyrants, or emotionally unstable wrecks.

People also seem to forget that the Great Hyperspace War was started because Naga Sadow wanted something to cement his rule over the empire.

Doesn’t exactly excuse the following genocide, but let’s not pretend that the Sith were innocent lambs in that one.

Prior to the genocide the Sith wasn't a den of madmen and monsters. Back before the Great Hyperspace war the Sith were a belligerent expansionist state, but not particularly notable beyond that. Hell, there was a pretty large faction of Sith that would have favored peace with the Republic and wished to remain isolationist.

Who the Jedi preceded to genocide along with the rest.

It was only after the horror of the Sith Holocaust that the Sith started to go crazy, and for all that Vitiate was a galaxy eating monster, his second empire was a mostly functional state. And when the other Sith realized how evil he was they turned against him.

 

[DarthOne]

Prior to the genocide the Sith wasn't a den of madmen and monsters. Back before the Great Hyperspace war the Sith were a belligerent expansionist state, but not particularly notable beyond that. Hell, there was a pretty large faction of Sith that would have favored peace with the Republic and wished to remain isolationist.

Who the Jedi preceded to genocide along with the rest.

It was only after the horror of the Sith Holocaust that the Sith started to go crazy, and for all that Vitiate was a galaxy eating monster, his second empire was a mostly functional state. And when the other Sith realized how evil he was they turned against him.

Bullshit. The Sith has no problems enslaving people to start with, much less committing acts of blood sacrifice and dark sorcery.

 

[Bacle]

Bullshit. The Sith has no problems enslaving people to start with, much less committing acts of blood sacrifice and dark sorcery.

Are talking about the actual Sith species, or the fallen Jedi who coopted the name?

Because the Sith species was no more intrinsically bad than the residents of Dathomir; products of their environment.

The Sith cults however did do all sort of horrible genetic fuckery over the eons.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Sure, the Sith launching a war of aggression in the Great Hyperspace war doesn't justify destroying the Sith. There doesn't appear to have been any concentrated effort to exterminate the Sith as a species, and any "holocaust" was rather a cultural one - destruction of Sith artifacts and religious sites. That is IMO justified if the Sith culture and dark side use is inherently evil or has an extremely strong tendency toward evil, which in canon it pretty clearly does.

That is a post-Disney retcon of the Legends material, and with such a half-baked 'ritualistic mass suicide' that outright comes off as genocide denial. Before Disney, the Supreme Chancellor explicitly ordered the destruction of the Sith species, and the Jedi just went along with it.

Bullshit. The Sith has no problems enslaving people to start with, much less committing acts of blood sacrifice and dark sorcery.

Bullshit. The Jedi have no problem with the Hutts enslaving people, much less committing genocide, so who are they to judge the Sith?

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

That is a post-Disney retcon of the Legends material, and with such a half-baked 'ritualistic mass suicide' that outright comes off as genocide denial. Before Disney, the Supreme Chancellor explicitly ordered the destruction of the Sith species, and the Jedi just went along with it.

Yeah, that just sounds like in-universe genocide denial, and cultural genocide is still genocide. So the Jedi no matter what canon still went along with genocide!

Bullshit. The Jedi have no problem with the Hutts enslaving people, much less committing genocide, so who are they to judge the Sith?

Or the Republic for that matter. And remember the Jedi became legbreakers/bagmen for the Republic, and they did things like outright put down slave rebellions against systems that horrified even the Sith (I heard Yoda did that). Or even look at what they did in the Clone Wars.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

Yeah, that just sounds like in-universe genocide denial, and cultural genocide is still genocide. So the Jedi no matter what canon still went along with genocide!

Honestly the fact that the whole order wasn't disarmed is pretty ridiculous considering how the Republic has no military, and has an unelected fundamentalist religious group with their own military force right at their doorstep.

Or the Republic for that matter. And remember the Jedi became legbreakers/bagmen for the Republic, and they did things like outright put down slave rebellions against systems that horrified even the Sith (I heard Yoda did that). Or even look at what they did in the Clone Wars.

The clones themselves are victims of the Republic. They endorsed one of the ultimate taboos, and basically experimented on humans to create child soldiers (they accelerated their aging) so that they would be mindless slaves to the Republic as canon fodder. Most of them didn't have the positive experiences under the more reasonable commanders like Anakin or Kenobi during the Cold War.

Ki Adi Mundi from the expanded lore about him, seems like a sociopath. I don't doubt the Clones didn't shed a single tear executing him once Order 66 was issued. Plus a lot of Clones must have been resentful of the Jedi as well considering how their outdated tactics got so many of them killed. And since they were viewed as disposable tools the Republic rather than as humans, there was never really any public outcry against the clones being put through the meat grinder on battles such as Geonosis.

The Jedi have no problem with the Hutts enslaving people, much less committing genocide, so who are they to judge the Sith?

Honestly the idea of slavery in Star Wars being a thing doesn't really make much sense to me. Its simply not economically viable if you look at it from a simple pragmatic view rather than a moral one. And technologically advanced societies if anything would lead towards abolition as machines are better than muscle power for physical labor. In some parts of the Star Wars lore, the Empire used Wookie slaves to build the Death Star in space. This is ridiculous as that would be ridiculously expensive and unfeasible. Such advanced level construction likely requires the frame to already be built in Space. Precise coordination and assembly like on that on such a large scale would have to require the use of machines. Using slaves for this is like trying to use a goldsmith to build a microchip. The task is physically impossible.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Yeah, that just sounds like in-universe genocide denial, and cultural genocide is still genocide. So the Jedi no matter what canon still went along with genocide!

Not to mention the some of the justifications used to excuse the Sith Holocaust have troubling real world implications. Blood sacrifice? The Mesoamericans did that. So if the Sith Holocaust was justified on that basis, the cultural genocide of the Mexica and Incas and other Mesoamericans by European colonizers was equally justified. Caste society? The Indians still have a caste society, therefore by that logic, we should lob nukes at Delhi and other Indian cities before enacting a worldwide purge of the Indian people and culture.

Or the Republic for that matter. And remember the Jedi became legbreakers/bagmen for the Republic, and they did things like outright put down slave rebellions against systems that horrified even the Sith (I heard Yoda did that). Or even look at what they did in the Clone Wars.

Quite; towards the end of the Clone Wars, there was growing resentment among the clones towards their Jedi Generals. Thing is, skilled Jedi commanders like Anakin, Obi-Wan, and other major Jedi characters were a minority. Most Jedi bordered on incompetent, and both clones and military regulars were increasingly frustrated at how the Jedi used simplistic tactics that caused massive casualties for little gain, all the while continuing to act all high and mighty and looking down on the actual military professionals.

Are talking about the actual Sith species, or the fallen Jedi who coopted the name?

Because the Sith species was no more intrinsically bad than the residents of Dathomir; products of their environment.

The Sith cults however did do all sort of horrible genetic fuckery over the eons.

Hence there's an argument in a certain part of the fandom that the 'modern' Sith are not actual Sith. They appropriated the name, the philosophy, and the abilities, but lacked the cultural and historical foundation that anchored the True Sith. As pointed out, the True Sith turned against Vitiate when they saw just how insane he was, proving even they had lines they would not cross. And in the Imperial playthroughs, they also prove capable of reform, as shown by the growing cosmopolitanism of the Sith Empire under Darth Acina.

Said True Sith died out in (Legends) canon between 3000 and 2000 BBY, barring the Lost Tribe of Sith, who are the true heirs of the ancient Sith culture and philosophy. The New Sith are just a bunch of pretenders playing around with powers and ideals they have no real understanding of.

 

[TyrantTriumphant]

Hence there's an argument in a certain part of the fandom that the 'modern' Sith are not actual Sith. They appropriated the name, the philosophy, and the abilities, but lacked the cultural and historical foundation that anchored the True Sith. As pointed out, the True Sith turned against Vitiate when they saw just how insane he was, proving even they had lines they would not cross. And in the Imperial playthroughs, they also prove capable of reform, as shown by the growing cosmopolitanism of the Sith Empire under Darth Acina.

Said True Sith died out in (Legends) canon between 3000 and 2000 BBY, barring the Lost Tribe of Sith, who are the true heirs of the ancient Sith culture and philosophy. The New Sith are just a bunch of pretenders playing around with powers and ideals they have no real understanding of.

That really depends on what you mean by Sith. If you mean the Sith as a culture and society, than no, the New Sith had few ties to the old Sith. But the Sith were also a religion, not just a people. And most later Sith did attempt to adhere to the ideals and philosophy of the old Sith even if they weren't culturally Sith.

For instance, some of the Sith who had little to no cultural ties to the Sith Empire, such as Malak and Exar Kun, were still recognized by those Sith as other Sith and by their holocrons and force ghosts. The only exceptions I can think of are Darth Plagueis and Darth Krayt.

In my opinion where the Sith really started to go wrong was with Bane. For all it's problems, the Brotherhood of Darkness had ambitions of making the galaxy better and wasn't solely focused on destroying the Jedi. While Bane's plan was effective at destroying the Jedi his order never really had a plan for what came next. Once Palpatine had accomplished that goal he sort of stagnated until he got killed.