Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

Terthna said:

So then why did you pretend to care about people "using the same arguments" as the establishment?

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Because the same establishment uses the same arguments against many right wing people in the west. Ironically, some of the very people who now are outraged about establishment supporting "nazis" in Ukraine were called nazis by the same people over last years.

Bacle said:

So you do not deny the US effectively did cause the Maidan coup, you just think it was justified. Fair enough.

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As i said, probably helped. But that's quite different from causing it. If there was no sentiment on the ground, there would be no coup to cause.

Bacle said:

As for Burisma, the issue isn't the ownership, it's the connections to Biden, Pelosi, and others that I was talking about as the issue. The buyout and move to Cypress is interesting, but doesn't change the conflict of interest between Burisma and the Biden Admin. Which I think you understood, but did not want to address, because it goes back to the fact Ukraine was and still is riddled with corruption.

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So what are you saying is that the west should let Russia conquer Ukraine, because Biden is now US president, after Bidens did corrupt deals with pro-Russian oligarchs in Ukraine?
Now explain to me slowly how that makes sense.

Bacle said:

Do not pretend that the shady shit between the Ukrainian gov and Biden Admin do not exist, or that Zelenski's backers do not have overlap with Azov's backers.

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But what was the shady shit? Does anyone know?
So? There was always shady shit in that region. I prefer that to not be Russian shady shit. Bidens et al are far away and distracted by many other corrupt deals all over the world. For Russia, this is an immediate imperial venture of historical importance, they won't just randomly forget to continue it.

Agent23 said:

Yes, as well as the 'wannabe superpower shit'

If you Poles want to burn your own resources in this attempt to contain Russia I do not care, you are supposedly a democracy,
and your oligarchy/deep state is your own.
What I do not care about is being dragged indirectly into your little quixotic, paranoia-fueled anti-Russia crusades, and since we are both in the EU and NATO that means that we are basically have one foot tied together.

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That's what you get for talking about EU like an empire.

Agent23 said:

Russia is much larger, both where size and resources are concerned, and where total population is concerned.
As it happens yours and the Ukrainians shenanigans is costing me money already.

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Should have considered geopolitical stability as a greater factor in the risk assessment for your investments.

Agent23 said:

Russia does not have any interest in trying to take you over, you do not have the resources to be worth taking over and they have the most land and minerals on the planet, literally.

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Then why the fuck are they taking over Ukraine? We both know that its about more ambitious concepts than mere minerals and area.

Agent23 said:

You despise them and there is very little cultural similarity between you two.
You are not controlling large swaths of Belarussian and Ukrainian territory, nor are you supporting anti-soviet forces.

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No, just anti Russian proto-empire reborn ones.

Agent23 said:

Ideological disease, try gangrene devouring a whole limb.
You identify as whatever you want to identify, I do not see myself as a part of the West, once I wanted to be more western, but since then I have found the west lacking.
Furthermore, the west is very inconsistent and self-obsessed, they will dump you when they have the slightest incentive and you are shilling for the UK and USA like mad.
Furthermore, the bigger powers in the EU probably hate you for being a US/UK trojan horse and for messing up their relationships with the Russians.

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And these two last points are connected.
There are reasons why Poland has such a complicated relationship with the EU, that some factions there would indeed be eager to sacrifice our (and many other eastern countries') interests for more corrupt business with Russia is one of the biggest. Hence maintaining the alternate option with US/UK.

Agent23 said:

Yes, as well as the 'wannabe superpower shit'

If you Poles want to burn your own resources in this attempt to contain Russia I do not care, you are supposedly a democracy,
and your oligarchy/deep state is your own.
What I do not care about is being dragged indirectly into your little quixotic, paranoia-fueled anti-Russia crusades, and since we are both in the EU and NATO that means that we are basically have one foot tied together.
Russia is much larger, both where size and resources are concerned, and where total population is concerned.
As it happens yours and the Ukrainians shenanigans is costing me money already.


Russia does not have any interest in trying to take you over, you do not have the resources to be worth taking over and they have the most land and minerals on the planet, literally.
You despise them and there is very little cultural similarity between you two.
You are not controlling large swaths of Belarussian and Ukrainian territory, nor are you supporting anti-soviet forces.



Ideological disease, try gangrene devouring a whole limb.
You identify as whatever you want to identify, I do not see myself as a part of the West, once I wanted to be more western, but since then I have found the west lacking.
Furthermore, the west is very inconsistent and self-obsessed, they will dump you when they have the slightest incentive and you are shilling for the UK and USA like mad.
Furthermore, the bigger powers in the EU probably hate you for being a US/UK trojan horse and for messing up their relationships with the Russians.

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Russia is already making noises about maybe trying for the Baltics and punching a corridor to Kaliningrad.

So saying Russia has no designs for Poland is either ignorance, or a blatant falsehood.

Marduk may have a serious desire to see as many dead Russians as possible in Ukraine, and ignore or down play the corruption issues in Ukraine and it's ties to Biden, but he is some decent reason to fear Putin is going to try for Poland and/or the Baltics, if he thinks he can get away with it.

I get that your purchasing power has gone to shit because of this and the sanctions that hit, but perhaps you and your countrymen shouldn't have allowed yourselves to become so dependent on Russia for your economy. You can shill for Putin all you want, but he won't pay you for it, not will it change that Russia/Putin is the aggressor and bad guy in this conflict.

Marduk said:

So what are you saying is that the west should let Russia conquer Ukraine, because Biden is now US president, after Bidens did corrupt deals with pro-Russian oligarchs in Ukraine?
Now explain to me slowly how that makes sense.

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That is not what I have said, so I am not going to argue it, and this sort of bad faith argument is why I said you cannot look at this situation objectively.

Marduk said:

But what was the shady shit? Does anyone know?
So? There was always shady shit in that region. I prefer that to not be Russian shady shit. Bidens et al are far away and distracted by many other corrupt deals all over the world. For Russia, this is an immediate imperial venture of historical importance, they won't just randomly forget to continue it.

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So you do not care what shady shit the US does in Ukraine, as long as the target is Russia and it doesn't cause you problems directly.

I guess on a purely pragmatic level I can see your point, but I have not forgotten that the same shady shit we did in Ukraine was turned back around on us in what happened to Trump. Did you forget why he was Impeached for his call to Ukraine and wanting the investigation reopened into Burisma and the Biden's connections to it, at the same time as the Wu Flu was getting loose? You want US troops and nuclear umbrella, yet don't seem to care about how the US gov has fucked over its own citizens with shady shit, because it's 'far away' from you.

And you wonder why more and more Americans want the go isolationist, when this is what we can expect from our 'allies'.

Marduk said:

That's what you get for talking about EU like an empire.

Should have considered geopolitical stability as a greater factor in the risk assessment for your investments.

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You were the one with the whole "wannabe superpower" shit, and I am pretty sure it was tour commonwealth fantasy talking.
I don't have exposure to Russia, but my European stocks got hit because of you!
This shit you and the US blob cooked up will damage the competitiveness of Europe.
I am angry because you are causing price inflation

Marduk said:

Then why the fuck are they taking over Ukraine? We both know that its about more ambitious concepts than mere minerals

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Maydan coup.
Neonazis attacking ethnic Russians.
Nato trying to stick missiles and troops within 600 km of Moscow and having an easy way to cut Russia off of the Caucasus.
Historic reasons like the fact that some of those territories were an integral part of Russia, including their black sea ports.
A bunch of other red lines you and the neocons ignored.

Marduk said:

No, just anti Russian proto-empire reborn ones.

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Self-fulfilling prophecies are a thing.

Marduk said:

And these two last points are connected.
There are reasons why Poland has such a complicated relationship with the EU, that some factions there would indeed be eager to sacrifice our (and many other eastern countries') interests for more corrupt business with Russia is one of the biggest. Hence maintaining the alternate option with US/UK.

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Antagonize your closest trading partners and neighbors for the sake of fickle, far away ones infested with even more woke madness, got it.
Didn't you try and pull that shit a bunch of times before?

Bacle said:

Russia is already making noises about maybe trying for the Baltics and punching a corridor to Kaliningrad.

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The Baltics are another tail trying to wag the dog, and they treat their Russian minorities pretty badly.
Furthermore IIRC that was a threat because some of them wanted to cut Kaliningrad off, including by sea and it happened right after Russian aircraft were blocked from using EU airspace.

Also, they are basically what Cuba right after the Castro takeover was for the USA.

Marduk said:

Because the same establishment uses the same arguments against many right wing people in the west. Ironically, some of the very people who now are outraged about establishment supporting "nazis" in Ukraine were called nazis by the same people over last years.

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Part of the reason I'm angry about that is because of the hypocrisy involved. They kept making false accusation against people who disagreed with them (myself included), in an attempt to discredit them, but are now supporting people whom those accusation actually apply to.

Terthna said:

Part of the reason I'm angry about that is because of the hypocrisy involved. They kept making false accusation against people who disagreed with them (myself included), in an attempt to discredit them, but are now supporting people whom those accusation actually apply to.

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And the Pole has the gall to call me, me, a leftist!

Agent23 said:

And the Pole has the gall to call me, me, a leftist!

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He's done it to everyone who disagrees with him on the conflict in Ukraine and Russia; which is ironic, considering he's accusing us of using the same false accusation tactics as them.

Bacle said:

I guess on a purely pragmatic level I can see your point, but I have not forgotten that the same shady shit we did in Ukraine was turned back around on us in what happened to Trump.

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Its politics, shady shit is unavoidable.
And last time i checked Christopher Steele was not a FSB agent...

Bacle said:

Did you forget why he was Impeached for his call to Ukraine and wanting the investigation reopened into Burisma and the Biden's connections to it, at the same time as the Wu Flu was getting loose? You want US troops and nuclear umbrella, yet don't seem to care about how the US gov has fucked over its own citizens with shady shit, because it's 'far away' from you.

And you wonder why more and more Americans want the go isolationist, when this is what we can expect from our 'allies'.

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And what was Ukraine supposed or even able to do about that? It was merely the scene where the corrupt deals between Bidens and pro-Russia oligarch happened, based on the latter wanting to use the former's political power in USA to protect the latter's ass in Ukraine, which was threatened greatly after Russian protection no longer applied.

Agent23 said:

You were the one with the whole "wannabe superpower" shit, and I am pretty sure it was tour commonwealth fantasy talking.
I don't have exposure to Russia, but my European stocks got hit because of you!
This shit you and the US blob cooked up will damage the competitiveness of Europe.
I am angry because you are causing price inflation

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Ah, so now you, a Bulgarian patriot, care so much about competitiveness of "Europe". And i'm the one with superpower fantasies.

Agent23 said:

Maydan coup.
Neonazis attacking ethnic Russians.
Nato trying to stick missiles and troops within 600 km of Moscow and having an easy way to cut Russia off of the Caucasus.
Historic reasons like the fact that some of those territories were an integral part of Russia, including their black sea ports.
A bunch of other red lines you and the neocons ignored.

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What i'm reading:
I'm completely done with the "poor innocent Russia getting provoked by evul NATO and nazis" line. I'm of the opinion that Russia needs to fuck off behind the only red line its entitled to, its border, and think about why so many of its neighbors are so "biased" against it.
If Poland is not entitled to not have any hostile troops and missiles within 600km of its capital, why should Russia be?
And if it is, why the fuck are Russian troops and missiles still there?

Agent23 said:

Self-fulfilling prophecies are a thing.

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History repeating itself is also a thing.

Agent23 said:

Antagonize your closest trading partners and neighbors for the sake of fickle, far away ones infested with even more woke madness, got it.
Didn't you try and pull that shit a bunch of times before?

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Its not perfect, but being fully reliant on just one ally who cares about corrupt deals with your historical enemies disturbingly much would be a classic blunder.

Terthna said:

Part of the reason I'm angry about that is because of the hypocrisy involved. They kept making false accusation against people who disagreed with them (myself included), in an attempt to discredit them, but are now supporting people whom those accusation actually apply to.

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I don't need to discredit you. You went swinging, repeating inherently leftist accusations, for who knows what reason.

Marduk said:

Ah, so now you, a Bulgarian patriot, care so much about competitiveness of "Europe". And i'm the one with superpower fantasies.

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yes, because we are part of the EU, I do not like it, I want it reformed, but while we are in it growth and low inflation for it benefit the entire bloc.My country and myself included.

Marduk said:

What i'm reading:

And you are lynching Negroes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'm completely done with the "poor innocent Russia getting provoked by evul NATO and nazis" line. I'm of the opinion that Russia needs to fuck off behind the only red line its entitled to, its border, and think about why so many of its neighbors are so "biased" against it.

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One TV 2 films again...

Marduk said:

If Poland is not entitled to not have any hostile troops and missiles within 600km of its capital, why should Russia be?
And if it is, why the fuck are Russian troops and missiles still there?

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Cause they are a great power and you are not, also you could have pushed for Belarus and Ukraine to stay neutral, you chose to try and pull them into your camp.
You played, you lost, now stop whining.

Marduk said:

History repeating itself is also a thing.

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Yes, you have poked the bear before, and it has mauled you.

Marduk said:

Its not perfect, but being fully reliant on just one ally who cares about corrupt deals with your historical enemies disturbingly much would be a classic blunder.

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Perhaps you should think about not sabotaging Russia every chance you get and developing a modus vivendi with them?

Marduk said:

I don't need to discredit you. You went swinging, repeating inherently leftist accusations, for who knows what reason.

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Honestly, didn't you get tired of stupid personal attacks like that, it only makes you look desperate out of arguments to ree leftist all the time, you sound like the "precious bodily fluids" guy.

Terthna said:

He's done it to everyone who disagrees with him on the conflict in Ukraine and Russia; which is ironic, considering he's accusing us of using the same false accusation tactics as them.

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Honestly it would have been a lot easier if I could just block him and not see his parrot posts any longer.
One would think am the MC of a tsundere romcom anime and he is the tsundere, considering how much time I spend on him.

Agent23 said:

yes, because we are part of the EU, I do not like it, I want it reformed, but while we are in it growth and low inflation for it benefit the entire bloc.My country and myself included.

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Last time i checked EU was an alliance of still sovereign countries. The consensus in Poland is that we would prefer it to stay that way as indefinite status quo. Sovereign countries, last time i checked, have their own economies and growth rates.

Agent23 said:

Cause they are a great power and you are not,

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I see a circular argument in that statement and i have a solution to it.
Russia is a great power because it has the power to boss around its smaller neighbors.
Russia should be allowed to boss around and make demands of its smaller neighbors because its a great power.
Solution:
The west helps one of the smaller neighbors kick Russia's ass. First statement becomes de facto false, Russia stops being a great power, becomes just a middle one, as some already predicted.
All the related questions, controversies and arguments are solved.
Looking at current events, i may not be the first one who got that idea.

Agent23 said:

also you could have pushed for Belarus and Ukraine to stay neutral, you chose to try and pull them into your camp.
You played, you lost, now stop whining.

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Russia could have made Belarus neutral and Belarus would have no choice in that, especially after it became fully reliant on Russia, but didn't. We all know why.

Agent23 said:

Yes, you have poked the bear before, and it has mauled you.

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I'm pretty sure the bear did its fair share of mauling, and that got it poked.

Agent23 said:

Perhaps you should think about not sabotaging Russia every chance you get and developing a modus vivendi with them?

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Its not unearned on their part.

Marduk said:

Well, is he more corrupt? Is that even possible, considering how corrupt the norm was? From all i know, the current team is only about half as corrupt as the usual for them, which must seem quite corrupt for the westerners, and a big upgrade to Ukrainians.

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If the man was only 90% as corrupt as his predecessors he'd be venerated like a messiah and wouldn't need to jail his opposition and slaughter ethnically Russian constituents.

Marduk said:

Let's be honest, there was never a possibility for Ukraine to jump from its status quo straight to a perfect, non corrupt government.

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You'll get no argument from me here, and I am certainly not condemning the man for not being a Reagan.

More that he's Joe Kennedy without self restraint and that's kind of a problem for our legitimacy in this fiasco.

Bacle said:

We can condemn Putin's actions without excusing the shady shit 'our side' has done in Ukraine.

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Yeah this is pretty much my position. With a large side of "the regimes on both sides are so dirty that this is such a gigantic clusterfuck that involving ourselves in it can only end in disaster."

The Immortal Watch Dog said:

If the man was only 90% as corrupt as his predecessors he'd be venerated like a messiah and wouldn't need to jail his opposition and slaughter ethnically Russian constituents.

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Jailing the opposition is soft and magnanimous when they are pretty openly conspiring with a neighboring hostile foreign power.

Marduk said:

Jailing the opposition is soft and magnanimous when they are pretty openly conspiring with a neighboring hostile foreign power.

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When you're obliterating the families of said opposition its a good deal more than "common sense solution to an infiltration issue." And well into "pretext to do some time honored ethnic cleansing.'

Which I get it, is par for the course for that region but that kinda goes back to my point. That we should probably be using other means to cuck Russia.

Like say, exporting a shitton of our own energy to Russian clients at a lower price and reviving the farmbelt.

Ways that don't involve us eating an ICM for breakfast.

The Immortal Watch Dog said:

When you're obliterating the families of said politicians its a good deal more than "common sense solution to an infiltration issue." And well into "pretext to do some time honored ethnic cleansing.'

Which I get it, is par for the course for that region but that kinda goes back to my point. That we should probably be using other means to cuck Russia.

Like say, exporting a shitton of our own energy to Russian clients at a lower price and reviving the farmbelt.

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But what ethnic cleansing? Obviously Russian sympathetic media play victim to excuse own "peacekeeping operation", but the fact is that the most notable population shift there is Russians escaping to Russia from the small territories controlled by Russia supported separatists and their North Korea grade governance that even makes Putin's fiefdom look nice by comparison. But where are the mass graves? Where are the millions of Russians escaping the territories controlled by the supposed "nazis"?

The Immortal Watch Dog said:

When you're obliterating the families of said opposition its a good deal more than "common sense solution to an infiltration issue." And well into "pretext to do some time honored ethnic cleansing.'

Which I get it, is par for the course for that region but that kinda goes back to my point. That we should probably be using other means to cuck Russia.

Like say, exporting a shitton of our own energy to Russian clients at a lower price and reviving the farmbelt.

Ways that don't involve us eating an ICM for breakfast.

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The russians always like to say their the 3rd Rome but they never ask themselves the question what if their the 2nd carthrage?

Cherico said:

The russians always like to say their the 3rd Rome but they never ask themselves the question what if their the 2nd carthrage?

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Considering what Caracalla did to proto slavs? Its absolutely hilarious when people like Dugin and Putin call their shithole a third Rome.

If anything they're the second coming of the Selucid Empire. The bastard grandchild of a great if monstrously corrupt and decadent empire and the Mongrel offspring of a disease ridden flash in the pan.

Marduk said:

I don't need to discredit you. You went swinging, repeating inherently leftist accusations, for who knows what reason.

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I'm going to be blunt; at this point, I have absolutely zero respect for you as a human being. You've managed to exhaust all of it by constantly indulging in constant ad hominem attacks on my character; and quite frankly? You'd be on my block list right now if it wasn't for the fact that you being a member of the staff precludes me from doing so.

Terthna said:

I'm going to be blunt; at this point, I have absolutely zero respect for you as a human being. You've managed to exhaust all of it by constantly indulging in constant ad hominem attacks on my character; and quite frankly? You'd be on my block list right now if it wasn't for the fact that you being a member of the staff precludes me from doing so.

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Attacks not on your character, your political views specifically.
Nice of you to admit your true feelings, but that doesn't change the fact that when you're specifically namecalling movements you know little about Nazis and bigots, your defense is that its an ad hominem attack to compare you politically to the people most famous for calling everyone they don't like Nazis both in this specific case and in general behavior.

I hate how this war has shown that people will suck off a dictators cock because he is "Based" when he did what our current administration is trying by taking sole power.