Leftist Child Grooming

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Everything I said is the exact opposite of the leftist interpretation of the founders. The history and founding of this nation is one of real world events shaped by and tied to a people and not some set of "ideals."

It was a mistype and its clear this is a hilarious projection. What is it with mods on this site being the most dishonest douche bags I've ever witnessed? Literally reddit tier pedantry where they don't even engage with the real ideas or points behind post, almost like they lack the ability and instead go for gotchas and attacking obvious strawman or typos in an attempt to get likes.

You might want to fuck off and read even a fifth graders intro to us history. The US had a whole constitutional convention which barely resulted in a constitution, only passing after rigorous compromise where no one got everything they wanted and it was a very heated affair which itself was a follow up after the first attempt at a nation totally failed. Or did you completely miss this from all those history books you totally read?

To be honest I shouldn't even respond since its impossible for you to have not understood this is what I meant, and if you then disagreed with something to have stated it in response to that. Given you didn't its obvious you're either retarded, blinded by ideology or just responding in bad faith here.
There is so much lack going on here, I don't even know where to begin.

...I don't think I will. Unless I'm radically misreading something, your frame of understanding is so radically departed from that of Conservatism, we'd just about have to from ground zero on the whole historical period to even have a chance at building enough understanding to even start a meaningful debate.

That just is not worthy it when you're already displaying open contempt for those who disagree with you.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
What is it with mods on this site being the most dishonest douche bags I've ever witnessed? Literally reddit tier pedantry where they don't even engage with the real ideas or points behind post, almost like they lack the ability and instead go for gotchas and attacking obvious strawman or typos in an attempt to get likes.
If you have a bad take, then compound it with bad history (even if its a typo), I'll point out both.

The US had a whole constitutional convention which barely resulted in a constitution, only passing after rigorous compromise where no one got everything they wanted and it was a very heated affair which itself was a follow up after the first attempt at a nation totally failed. Or did you completely miss this from all those history books you totally read?
Really, the US had effectively three constitutional conventions. First the articles of confederation, then the constitutional convention, then the bill of rights.

And yes, there was bitterness, and people who didn't like one another, and disagreements, but that doesn't preclude them agreeing on some principles. In fact, I'd say that them managing to agree on principles is key. But there's a more important document I'd reference here, which is the Declaration of Independence.

There are two ways to interpret Englishman, so I'll deal with both.

If you mean of English decent, this can't be correct. In fact, I don't think you do, so I'll deal with this quickly. Note that in many ways, they weren't all founded on being English, or even British. For example, New Jersey and Delaware were about 20% German, about 27% of New York was Dutch descended, etc. Not to mention the Jews, who were frequently not considered British. But moreover, there were Irish and Scots also. So saying that they were just a group of Englishmen in that sense would be incorrect. But I don't think this was your meaning, but I figured I'd cover that possible meaning while here.

The other option is that you mean "a subject of the English Crown". Here, I'd say you would be close, except one big thing: the American Revolution by definition destroyed that unifying feature, so it required a replacement. Specifically, let's look at the document that severed these common bonds: the Declaration of Independence. Now, this may have been a post hoc justification, where they decided to rebel over a tax and it sorta blew up and now they are trying to assign meaning to it, but their arguments were based in natural rights. Slightly changing from Locke, they cited "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" as the inalienable rights of man given by his creation/creator.

See, right there, a common ideal replaced the previous bond of being subjects of the English Crown. Because if that was the bond being used, then they ought to be faithful subjects of the Crown, but they weren't.

the foundation of a nation is a complex thing, real world events, ideals, cultural differences political realities all of these played a factor. To say just one thing went into the creation of a nation is like 5 blind men discribing an elephant by touch. History is complex because people are complex.
I didn't say it was just one thing. But the US being founded on ideals is a lot more accurate than saying it was founded upon being Englishmen, especially given that the Revolution was about no longer being that.

In fact, the US being a nation of ideals is something fairly commonly accepted by both parties, and almost all subbranches of the major parties. The only group that tends to deny it are the crazed leftists who hate America (think the 1619 Project's psuedohistory). Even progressives generally accept that America was founded on ideals though.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Now, this may have been a post hoc justification, where they decided to rebel over a tax and it sorta blew up and now they are trying to assign meaning to it,
I've covered the lead up to the Revolution in other posts and it was about a lot more than taxes, and in fact, when you look at the full list of things leading up to it, it was clear it what about their Rights as Englishmen (in the second sense, some colonies even specifically referred back to their original charters where they were guaranteed their full and equal rights as Englishmen that Parliament and the Crown's actions were abridging).

Basically, Parliament stepped all over various different rights held in common by Englishmen in England, and the Colonies were upset about that, but "No Taxation without Representation" was by far the most pithy and catching motto of all the various abridgements Parliament forced upon the colonies, and there were direct tax related actions that took place, so most people remember that the best.
 
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I've covered the lead up to the Revolution in other posts and it was about a lot more than taxes, and in fact, when you look at the full list of things leading up to it, it was clear it what about their Rights as Englishmen (in the second sense, some colonies even specifically referred back to their original charters where they were guaranteed their full and equal rights as Englishmen that Parliament and the Crown's actions were abridging).

Basically, Parliament stepped all over various different rights held in common by Englishmen in England, and the Colonies were upset about that, but "No Taxation without Representation" was by far the most pithy and catching motto of all the various abridgements Parliament forced upon the colonies, and there were direct tax related actions that took place, so most people remember that the best.

I'm about to ask a REALLY stupid question, but...why didn't they sail back to England and take the political fight there, instead of essentially abandoning thier homeland and creating a new nation? Especially considering that half of the colonists were banished back to the homeland anyway after the revolution due to being Tories? I've come across some real blood and soil types that want to "Reclaim their homeland" from the foreigner (Foreigners being non-English I guess) and in my mind I'm going "You had a homeland, it was and is called ENGLAND. Your ancestors abandoned that homeland. You can easily leave this foreign land and go back to the land of your ancestors, and fight against the demestoic issues going on there like the proud Englishman you identify as."

seems like there would be a lot less arguing about which land belonged to whom if people would you know...just stay in their respective lands and stop moving around.

Like I said I know this is showing absolutely disgusting ignorance on my part, and I will admit my bias due to being Scotch-Irish (The often forgotten and/or glossed over foreign minority of American history before suddenly we were grouped in with WASP for whatever reason which makes no sense. Irish and Scotch Irish have never been anglo-Saxan and the majority were either straight catholic or they were refromationist. ) it just seems like so much of Modern politics is (especially in regards to boarders and Sovereignty ) is based on Hypocrisy and double standard regardless of left right or center. and I just don't get it.
 
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mrttao

Well-known member
I'm about to ask a REALLY stupid question, but...why didn't they sail back to England and take the political fight there, instead of essentially abandoning thier homeland and creating a new nation?
1.
UK first successful settlement on USA soil was 1620 (mayflower)
USA rebelled against the UK in 1783
That is a 163 year gap.
their homeland was whatever state they were born in inside america
Granted, vast majority of settlers did not come in the very first boat, but still.
(I say first successful because they were earlier attempts where everyone died / disappeared)

2. UK was the worlds foremost naval power.
USA had no navy to speak of.
Sailing to the UK with their non existent navy to invade it by boat would be a joke.

3. UK was a behemoth. only reason USA rebellion succeeded is that the UK was preoccupied with internal problems, some conflicts, USA got assistance from the french, etc. The USA actually timed the rebellion to match those opportunities rather than it happening completely spontanously
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
1.
UK first successful settlement on USA soil was 1620 (mayflower)
USA rebelled against the UK in 1783
That is a 163 year gap.
their homeland was whatever state they were born in inside america
Granted, vast majority of settlers did not come in the very first boat, but still.
(I say first successful because they were earlier attempts where everyone died / disappeared)

2. UK was the worlds foremost naval power.
USA had no navy to speak of.
Sailing to the UK with their non existent navy to invade it by boat would be a joke.

3. UK was a behemoth. only reason USA rebellion succeeded is that the UK was preoccupied with internal problems, some conflicts, USA got assistance from the french, etc. The USA actually timed the rebellion to match those opportunities rather than it happening completely spontanously
We were more focused on Napoleon and the wars going on in Europe. America's Revolution came at the right opportunistic time, basically, and when it happened we were like "eh, they're not worth the cost of trying to reclaim them" after.
 

strunkenwhite

Well-known member
3. UK was a behemoth. only reason USA rebellion succeeded is that the UK was preoccupied with internal problems, some conflicts, USA got assistance from the french, etc. The USA actually timed the rebellion to match those opportunities rather than it happening completely spontanously
I'm really skeptical of this one. Wouldn't it be more likely that the troubles were part of the reason for Parliament to be squeezing and otherwise antagonizing the colonies, and that's why they coincide?
We were more focused on Napoleon and the wars going on in Europe. America's Revolution came at the right opportunistic time, basically, and when it happened we were like "eh, they're not worth the cost of trying to reclaim them" after.
Are you sure you aren't thinking of the war of 1812? I sometimes hear it referred to as the second war of independence.
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
I'm really skeptical of this one. Wouldn't it be more likely that the troubles were part of the reason for Parliament to be squeezing and otherwise antagonizing the colonies, and that's why they coincide?

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the war of 1812? I sometimes hear it referred to as the second war of independence.
There were a lot of factors leading up to the American Revolution which included but weren't limited to "no taxation without representation," and the British government basically demanding more resources because of the brewing shitstorm in Europe was one of them.

While the Napoleonic Wars "officially" kicked off about twenty years after the American Revolution, smaller fights and proxy conflicts were breaking out all over the place. Everyone in Europe basically knew war was inevitable with the French, and given how close they were and how clustered Europe is, it would basically be a war for nation survival.

All of the various empires' attentions, including the UK, were on this.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
1.
UK first successful settlement on USA soil was 1620 (mayflower)
Goddamn Yankees rewriting history yet again.

No, the first successful English Colony in the Americas wasn't Plymouth, Plymouth was the second, the first was Jamestown Virginia in 1607 as good 13 years earlier.
their homeland was whatever state they were born in inside america
Larger point stands though. This is very much the case, by the time of the American Revolution, the colonists had made a home for themselves in the colonies by multiple generations, had fought a war with the French to secure that land, and
We were more focused on Napoleon and the wars going on in Europe. America's Revolution came at the right opportunistic time, basically, and when it happened we were like "eh, they're not worth the cost of trying to reclaim them" after.
Oh for fucks sake, no the American Revolution had jack shit to do with the Napoleonic Wars. The French Revolution had not even happened yet and Napoleon's rise to power was DECADES away. In fact, there were no major wars in Europe in the 1770s outside of those related to the American Revolution, the last major conflict in Europe having been the Seven Years War that ended in 1763 and the next conflict between England and France that occurred independently of the American Revolution was the French Revolutionary Wars in the 1790s, twenty years after the American Revolution, which then led to the Napoleonic Wars that began in 1803 nearly thirty years after the American Revolution.

No, the British couldn't pacify the American Colonies without going to extremes that nobody there wanted to do, and there was a fairly large British contingent whom saw the American Colonists as being in the right in the conflict (IE Edmund Burke and his political allies, who were in opposition at the time but who represented large chunks of the British population many of whom were also sympathetic), which meant that Britain was fighting politically divided.

Meanwhile yes, a bunch of European powers, including the French, did declare war in that period; however, the reason they did so was explicitly in support of the American Revolution, without that conflict those other wars would not have happened.

Look, I can understand why Brits don't like to talk about the American Revolution and so tend to pretend it didn't happen the way it happened. Based on modern political/moral values they were the "bad guys" in the conflict and they took one of their most humiliating naval losses in their history during it, plus who wants to admit that what would, in about thirty years, become the most powerful and professional army in the world, got beat by the French and a bunch of (perceived) backwater colonies.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
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Comrade
Osaul
2. UK was the worlds foremost naval power.
USA had no navy to speak of.
Sailing to the UK with their non existent navy to invade it by boat would be a joke.
Technically, they did actually do a naval raid on England (specifically Whitehaven), but that was only one ship by itself (John Paul Jones is a legend for a reason). It was less successful than hoped, but still not bad.

But yeah, the point stands, no invasion would be viable at all. Islands are powerful for a reason.
 
Okay what I'm getting from this is the amount of attempting to rewrite history to coincide with modern political sensibilities (Establishment, populist, or other is disturbing.
 

Poe

Well-known member
There is so much lack going on here, I don't even know where to begin.
I really don't know what you mean? A typical conservative would recognize America was born out of the struggle of colonization and had republican principles due to this long before there was any revolution (the first successful colonies had republican traditions due to being charter companies and not extraction sites.)

They would also agree that the US was mostly WASPs until after the revolution and the mass migration of Irishman. Both of these are factual, not really much room for them to misunderstand. Look my initial comment was in response to someone who was attacking America, and its founding, as never having met its ideals and my point was, and remains, that it met its "ideals" upon founding as there was a ton of diversity of thought amongst the founders and the constitution enshrined the few things they could all agree upon at that time.
...I don't think I will. Unless I'm radically misreading something, your frame of understanding is so radically departed from that of Conservatism, we'd just about have to from ground zero on the whole historical period to even have a chance at building enough understanding to even start a meaningful debate.

That just is not worthy it when you're already displaying open contempt for those who disagree with you.
It has *nothing* to do with disagreement and everything to do with personal insults dished out over a simple discussion. Fuck anyone who tries to call me stupid because we're slightly disagreeing about how to interpret the founding of this country. How am I the wrong one here, because I was a lot more direct in my response after realizing only one of us was actually engaging the other honestly?

At least I addressed the actual substance of the other post instead of picking a couple of irrelevant things and implying he was stupid over it, especially because @Abhorsen and I agree on essentially everything else based on past threads it seemed pretty out of left field.

Really, the US had effectively three constitutional conventions. First the articles of confederation, then the constitutional convention, then the bill of rights.

And yes, there was bitterness, and people who didn't like one another, and disagreements, but that doesn't preclude them agreeing on some principles. In fact, I'd say that them managing to agree on principles is key. But there's a more important document I'd reference here, which is the Declaration of Independence.

There are two ways to interpret Englishman, so I'll deal with both.

If you mean of English decent, this can't be correct. In fact, I don't think you do, so I'll deal with this quickly. Note that in many ways, they weren't all founded on being English, or even British. For example, New Jersey and Delaware were about 20% German, about 27% of New York was Dutch descended, etc. Not to mention the Jews, who were frequently not considered British. But moreover, there were Irish and Scots also. So saying that they were just a group of Englishmen in that sense would be incorrect. But I don't think this was your meaning, but I figured I'd cover that possible meaning while here.

The other option is that you mean "a subject of the English Crown". Here, I'd say you would be close, except one big thing: the American Revolution by definition destroyed that unifying feature, so it required a replacement. Specifically, let's look at the document that severed these common bonds: the Declaration of Independence. Now, this may have been a post hoc justification, where they decided to rebel over a tax and it sorta blew up and now they are trying to assign meaning to it, but their arguments were based in natural rights. Slightly changing from Locke, they cited "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" as the inalienable rights of man given by his creation/creator.

See, right there, a common ideal replaced the previous bond of being subjects of the English Crown. Because if that was the bond being used, then they ought to be faithful subjects of the Crown, but they weren't.
This is, at least, an actual address to things I've said.
I didn't say it was just one thing. But the US being founded on ideals is a lot more accurate than saying it was founded upon being Englishmen, especially given that the Revolution was about no longer being that.

In fact, the US being a nation of ideals is something fairly commonly accepted by both parties, and almost all subbranches of the major parties. The only group that tends to deny it are the crazed leftists who hate America (think the 1619 Project's psuedohistory). Even progressives generally accept that America was founded on ideals though.
I didn't say it was founded on being englishmen, I said that the revolution was justified legally speaking with it. Even Edmund Burke came to the defense of the colonists as the most English of Englishman in his famous address to parliament and stated this clearly. I also never said, or argued, no ideals were present I pushed back against another poster, one you were arguing with, saying America never lived up to its ideals. I clarified to you that any founding ideals were second fiddle to a nation that was already born, already had a culture and complex social norms, when the laying down of those ideals came to head. My point was always that saying "America never lived up to its ideals!" was the leftist talking point, one that is historically wrong, and one that is used to justify the destruction of America and its people in the current day.
 
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Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
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It has *nothing* to do with disagreement and everything to do with personal insults dished out over a simple discussion. Fuck anyone who tries to call me stupid because I disagree with them about the US being a nation of ideals and not a reflection of a people. How am I the wrong one here?
This is, by my quick look, the only time I insulted you, at least for this thread:
I'm not inclined to trust any of the rest of your dubious knowledge of history.
Look, I'm sorry if my statement was too far by your opinion. I don't think you are an idiot, or even dumb. I do think you are wrong about the concept of America though, on a deep level, but I don't really see a need for hostility here, I'm quite fine disagreeing without going further.

Look, I know I'm the type of person to viciously mock people. I am not the nicest person online, and this can be offputting. But also I try not to immediately go to that mockery either, unless they deserve it, and you very much don't. I thought I hadn't gone off the rails or into vicious mockery at you, and apparently I read that wrong, so I apologize for that.
 
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DarthOne

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High Schoolers Walk Out as Adults Push Transgenderism


High school girls and boys are protesting the official push for shared restrooms at John Jay High School in Wappingers Central School District in New York State.

Students at John Jay High School staged a walkout on Monday in protest of students being allowed to use restrooms of the sex they identify with, rather than their actual biological sex, according to a report by Spectrum News 1.

"A bunch of people from our school, John Jay, feel uncomfortable," John Jay High School student Shauna Neilan told the outlet. "We want to change that and give them their own spaces to make us more comfortable and them more comfortable."

The protest reportedly sparked a counter protest that consisted of both adults and students in support of students using restrooms designated for the opposite sex.

The counterprotest was organized by Defense of Democracy, a nonprofit organization that claims its goal is to "educate the public about the value of inclusivity and the importance of emotional and physical safety for all individuals within the American public-school and library systems."
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Anti woke but moderate or still Lefty ish.
But growing more and more against Trans thays for sure
 

mrttao

Well-known member
High Schoolers Walk Out as Adults Push Transgenderism

> The counter protest was astroturfed by a national organization

fuckers.

> We will only print the statements of the astroturfed counter protest.

you don't hate the media enough. you think you do, but you don't
 

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