Israel 🇮🇱 State of Israel Thread

[SoliFortissimi]

Why the hell do you people keep using fictional entertainment media in debates about the real world? Reality isn't some third rate videogame, it's an absolutely incomprehensible network of cause and effect that none of us can properly understand - try though we must.

It's not that simple, and "foreign adventures" were a rather small cost in the grand scheme of things like social welfare, healthcare, or even climate spending

There should be a name for the political phenomenon where people comically overestimate how much money is being spent on policies they hate, as well as the effects.

 

[LordsFire]

There should be a name for the political phenomenon where people comically overestimate how much money is being spent on policies they hate, as well as the effects.

You could probably just fold it in to 'leftism' in general. It's not unique to the political left, but that's kind of like the fact that breast cancer isn't unique to women. It happens to other people, but it's certainly most common in one group.

 

[Sir 1000]

And that's one of few of their choices i can agree with.

It's not that simple, and "foreign adventures" were a rather small cost in the grand scheme of things like social welfare, healthcare, or even climate spending. Shit, if not for them, the military side of things would be left to rot even harder than it was already.

No matter who convinced you otherwise, we are not trapped in a classic setup game of Civilization V, economic/cultural victory are not enabled. It's an indefinite sandbox that goes on until everyone dies for any reason.

Trillions on Iraq alone............
If those are the rules then we should let Israel(that pisses off over a billion people btw ) handle it's affairs and stop screwing around next to the borders of nuclear powers.

Imagine China doing in Mexico what the west did in Ukraine and tell me burgertown wouldn't have kittens?
If the objective is living then the west is ruled by a deathcult

 

[Scottty]

Trillions on Iraq alone............
If those are the rules then we should let Israel(that pisses off over a billion people btw ) handle it's affairs and stop screwing around next to the borders of nuclear powers.

Imagine China doing in Mexico what the west did in Ukraine and tell me burgertown wouldn't have kittens?
If the objective is living then the west is ruled by a deathcult

If the USA were to up and invade Mexico or Canada with the goal of replacing the governments there with ones more submissive to US policy, I think someone like Marduk would be cheering. And if China or Russia started sending weapons/etc to those countries to help them defend themselves, he'd consider this an act of war against the USA on their part.

But the mental operation you are asking him to do: model how other people might act towards him based on how he would act to them if they did what he wants to do... I don't know if the rulers of the West are wanting to die, or are just not mentally capable of seeing that outcome.

Most likely they see "everyone dies in a nuclear fireball" as something that would only apply to other people.

 

[Marduk]

Trillions on Iraq alone............
If those are the rules then we should let Israel(that pisses off over a billion people btw ) handle it's affairs and stop screwing around next to the borders of nuclear powers.

If you want to honor the "might makes rightful sphere of influence", well, imagine Arab third world shitholes screwing around next to the border of a highly developed nuclear power, and a gas station with missiles screwing around next to the border of NATO-EU.

Imagine China doing in Mexico what the west did in Ukraine and tell me burgertown wouldn't have kittens?
If the objective is living then the west is ruled by a deathcult

As recent revelations show, funny how you picked it, as there's no need to imagine this, as they did something sneakier, and in few ways way worse.

If the USA were to up and invade Mexico or Canada with the goal of replacing the governments there with ones more submissive to US policy, I think someone like Marduk would be cheering. And if China or Russia started sending weapons/etc to those countries to help them defend themselves, he'd consider this an act of war against the USA on their part.

Well that's about what happened (especially according to anti-western narratives on respective wars) in places like Vietnam, Korea, Iraq. But there is some context missing, like the governments being replaces not exactly being legitimate or innocent themselves to say it lightly...

But the mental operation you are asking him to do: model how other people might act towards him based on how he would act to them if they did what he wants to do... I don't know if the rulers of the West are wanting to die, or are just not mentally capable of seeing that outcome.

Yes, i explicitly refuse to practice this naive failure of a mental operation.
You are trying to apply common western interpersonal relationship ethics to international relations between states and strongmen many of which have about exactly zero intention of following those, to add insult to injury.
What you are saying is as ridiculous as a French medieval lord going "I guess that if i stop my spat with my asshole neighbor, and stop having skirmishes with the Caliphate, and stop being mean to the peasants, then the Vikings will see how nice i am and stop raiding me, and the Caliphate and asshole neighbor will start liking me too."

It's almost as if there is no end of history, and there are still states out there with plenty enough of ambition and willingness to pursue it by force regardless of what anyone thinks of it, whether someone gets in the way of it or not, with them obviously being very pissed off when they do.
Or to put it in shorter and more hip words, it's a dog eat dog world.

Most likely they see "everyone dies in a nuclear fireball" as something that would only apply to other people.

That one is also a classic of western naivety promoters. If only the west's rivals were the ones to back down, after all they are no less vulnerable to nuclear fireballs than anyone else, and started to obsessively fear a nuclear escalation each time an advisor suggests to them to do something ballsy like proxy war through Hezbollah, shooting missiles at random civilian ships from a civil war torn country, or an invasion of Ukraine...
Funny how that never stopped them, never even shows in the highly controlled debates in their media. It's almost as if worrying about escalations and backing down over such worries is a distracting, paralyzing activity specifically meant for us, not for them.

 

[Sir 1000]

If you want to honor the "might makes rightful sphere of influence", well, imagine Arab third world shitholes screwing around next to the border of a highly developed nuclear power, and a gas station with missiles screwing around next to the border of NATO-EU.

As recent revelations show, funny how you picked it, as there's no need to imagine this, as they did something sneakier, and in few ways way worse.

That was in response to your original comparison, my original position was I wanted the peaceful way though I doubt it will happen. I am also not going complain when those ''third world shitholes'' develop nukes and drown Israel in a wave of drones. Israel is nothing but a lead weight around the neck of the west. Said gas station could vaporize billions. When did Exxon-Mobile grow so strong?

The people in charge don't give a shit if Americans die, they could close the border tomorrow with lethal force, drones, sensors, etc.
It's only happening with the consent of the ruling class. I guess with oxycontin gone and the Sacklers out of it someone had to earn

 

[Scottty]

If you want to honor the "might makes rightful sphere of influence", well, imagine Arab third world shitholes screwing around next to the border of a highly developed nuclear power, and a gas station with missiles screwing around next to the border of NATO-EU.

As recent revelations show, funny how you picked it, as there's no need to imagine this, as they did something sneakier, and in few ways way worse.

And you and I both know that the reason the ChiComs are able to do this stuff, and get away with it, is that they have much of the US govt in their pocket. That the people leading the Demoncats are actively trying to help Communist China take over the world, just as the same sort of people - or even literally the same people - were trying to sell out the West against the Soviet Union, back in the day.

Well that's about what happened (especially according to anti-western narratives on respective wars) in places like Vietnam, Korea, Iraq. But there is some context missing, like the governments being replaces not exactly being legitimate or innocent themselves to say it lightly...

Yes, i explicitly refuse to practice this naive failure of a mental operation.
You are trying to apply common western interpersonal relationship ethics to international relations between states and strongmen many of which have about exactly zero intention of following those, to add insult to injury.

Ever heard the saying: "If you think they have no concept of right and wrong, try wronging them" ?

What you are saying is as ridiculous as a French medieval lord going "I guess that if i stop my spat with my asshole neighbor, and stop having skirmishes with the Caliphate, and stop being mean to the peasants, then the Vikings will see how nice i am and stop raiding me, and the Caliphate and asshole neighbor will start liking me too."

No, you can't just flip an off switch on a quarrel that's already started. Too late for the pebbles to vote.
Especially as it was the Vikings and the Muslims who were starting it.

Getting the Vikings to go fight the Muslims was a brilliant solution, historically.

It's almost as if there is no end of history, and there are still states out there with plenty enough of ambition and willingness to pursue it by force regardless of what anyone thinks of it, whether someone gets in the way of it or not, with them obviously being very pissed off when they do.
Or to put it in shorter and more hip words, it's a dog eat dog world.

That one is also a classic of western naivety promoters. If only the west's rivals were the ones to back down, after all they are no less vulnerable to nuclear fireballs than anyone else, and started to obsessively fear a nuclear escalation each time an advisor suggests to them to do something ballsy like proxy war through Hezbollah, shooting missiles at random civilian ships from a civil war torn country, or an invasion of Ukraine...
Funny how that never stopped them, never even shows in the highly controlled debates in their media. It's almost as if worrying about escalations and backing down over such worries is a distracting, paralyzing activity specifically meant for us, not for them.

Do you not believe nukes are for real?
Or are people just expendable to you?

And to pop the bubble of your "bothsame" - Russia has a system of bunkers in which to shelter up to 50% of their population if things go hot - or so I've been told anyway.

The USA? Well they have plans for "continuity of government"..... continuity of the governed? Not so much.

All your jingoism rings hollow when one looks at how little the American govt elite really cares about that country's actual citizens.

 

[Marduk]

That was in response to your original comparison, my original position was I wanted the peaceful way though I doubt it will happen. I am also not going complain when those ''third world shitholes'' develop nukes and drown Israel in a wave of drones. Israel is nothing but a lead weight around the neck of the west. Said gas station could vaporize billions. When did Exxon-Mobile grow so strong?

Well with that attitudes there will be more gas stations capable of it, it only takes some billions and willingness to ignore treaties only westerners care about.
We need to stop naively "want the peaceful way" at any cost with knowledge that we won't get it, just give the other side a carrot to wave in front of our noses every time they want a concession.

The people in charge don't give a shit if Americans die, they could close the border tomorrow with lethal force, drones, sensors, etc.
It's only happening with the consent of the ruling class. I guess with oxycontin gone and the Sacklers out of it someone had to earn

Yes, our elites are retarded and cowardly in that they are too concerned about "optics" and worried about escalation even with weak shitholes.

And you and I both know that the reason the ChiComs are able to do this stuff, and get away with it, is that they have much of the US govt in their pocket. That the people leading the Demoncats are actively trying to help Communist China take over the world, just as the same sort of people - or even literally the same people - were trying to sell out the West against the Soviet Union, back in the day.

The infiltration clearly helps, but the whole culture of governance in the western center and left is too limp wristed to do more than write a sternly worded letter or make a little sanctions in many cases.

Ever heard the saying: "If you think they have no concept of right and wrong, try wronging them" ?

Imagine non universalist cultures existing...
Cultures that will get pissed at you for taking their stuff, but seeing it as completely rightful for them to take everyone else's stuff. You could call them hypocrites, but in response they would only laugh in your face and march you off to the slave market.
Yeah, those would be pretty nasty.
The world would be pretty harsh if those existed, you know?

No, you can't just flip an off switch on a quarrel that's already started. Too late for the pebbles to vote.
Especially as it was the Vikings and the Muslims who were starting it.

The Vikings or Muslims wouldn't necessarily raid you because of a quarrel, a slight, or anything else niceness could fix beyond the fact that you have wealth and you aren't able to keep them from taking it, that is plenty enough of a reason alone. Nothing provokes aggression like weakness and naivety do.

Getting the Vikings to go fight the Muslims was a brilliant solution, historically.

Scheming and plotting sometimes works, at least to buy time, until circumstances change and it stops working.

Do you not believe nukes are for real?
Or are people just expendable to you?

Are their nukes more real than ours?

And to pop the bubble of your "bothsame" - Russia has a system of bunkers in which to shelter up to 50% of their population if things go hot - or so I've been told anyway.

If you think baseless propaganda will pop "my bubble", you aren't just simply wrong, you are out of your mind in fact.
Sorry, Russia is not Fallout America on crack. Russia is not even Cold War era Switzerland or Sweden in that regard. On paper they can have bunkers to shelter 300% of their population for all i care, but you have to be an idiot to trust their papers.

The USA? Well they have plans for "continuity of government"..... continuity of the governed? Not so much.

USA has best anti missile hardware currently in existence. Probably not enough, and there should be much more, but what there is, works.

All your jingoism rings hollow when one looks at how little the American govt elite really cares about that country's actual citizens.

As the saying goes, you don't have to be perfect to win, just slightly better than the other guy.
Do you honestly believe Russian govt elite cares more? Chinese? If that's not going to get in the way of their militancy, why should it be that way for us?

 

[Scottty]

The infiltration clearly helps, but the whole culture of governance in the western center and left is too limp wristed to do more than write a sternly worded letter or make a little sanctions in many cases.

That is because the enemy already has agents poisoning your culture, undermining your people's belief in themselves and everything they hold dear, and trying to convince them all to roll over and die and let their enemies take over.
Clean that out, and you'll be in a position to win against your enemies. But as long as they have the 5th column in place, you will be sabotaged form within.

Imagine non universalist cultures existing...
Cultures that will get pissed at you for taking their stuff, but seeing it as completely rightful for them to take everyone else's stuff. You could call them hypocrites, but in response they would only laugh in your face and march you off to the slave market.
Yeah, those would be pretty nasty.
The world would be pretty harsh if those existed, you know?

Plenty of such cultures and peoples exist. The right way to deal with them is to not let them take your stuff, but also yourself not take their stuff. Kill the slavers and rescue their captives. But don't take slaves yourself.
Beat the crap out of them if they wrong you - but don't yourself wrong them.

Of course they are going to treat you defending yourself against them as wronging them. But that's no reason not to defend yourself.

Do you see the difference between my position and yours?

Are their nukes more real than ours?

Maybe? When did America or Russia last do an actual nuclear test? How well maintained are the nukes? When did they last build new ones? Some people worry about that.

If you think baseless propaganda will pop "my bubble", you aren't just simply wrong, you are out of your mind in fact.
Sorry, Russia is not Fallout America on crack. Russia is not even Cold War era Switzerland or Sweden in that regard. On paper they can have bunkers to shelter 300% of their population for all i care, but you have to be an idiot to trust their papers.

USA has best anti missile hardware currently in existence. Probably not enough, and there should be much more, but what there is, works.

As the saying goes, you don't have to be perfect to win, just slightly better than the other guy.
Do you honestly believe Russian govt elite cares more? Chinese? If that's not going to get in the way of their militancy, why should it be that way for us?

I don't know if they care about the people or not. But obviously they should, or they are not a legit government.
There would be fewer stupid wars if we did not have sociopathc clowns in government.

 

[Marduk]

That is because the enemy already has agents poisoning your culture, undermining your people's belief in themselves and everything they hold dear, and trying to convince them all to roll over and die and let their enemies take over.

Then why do supposed right wingers who complain about this so willingly join the "roll over" shouting chorus?

Clean that out, and you'll be in a position to win against your enemies. But as long as they have the 5th column in place, you will be sabotaged form within.

We may have different opinions on the scale of the 5th column then. It's not written in stone that useful idiots have to wave red flags.

Plenty of such cultures and peoples exist. The right way to deal with them is to not let them take your stuff, but also yourself not take their stuff. Kill the slavers and rescue their captives. But don't take slaves yourself.
Beat the crap out of them if they wrong you - but don't yourself wrong them.

And then, once you pat yourself on the back about how much better you are, await a dagger in your back when you're dealing with something else, internal or external.
We knows what the archetypes of our civilization would do. Kill them, take their stuff, burn what you cannot take, and salt the earth just in case the vengeful survivors try to rebuild.
Carthago delenda est anyone?

Of course they are going to treat you defending yourself against them as wronging them. But that's no reason not to defend yourself.

If you don't have the will to destroy your enemies, in defense especially, then you have to have the will for eternal war against them.

Do you see the difference between my position and yours?

Yes. But i still consider mine better, while yours is naively idealistic IMHO.

Maybe? When did America or Russia last do an actual nuclear test? How well maintained are the nukes? When did they last build new ones? Some people worry about that.

When did Russia? We (at least i) know the whole thing with technological maintenance works much better in the West than in Russia.
Some people worry about that and imagine insane feats of technology for the other side, while some other people actually know a thing or two about this stuff.

I don't know if they care about the people or not. But obviously they should, or they are not a legit government.
There would be fewer stupid wars if we did not have sociopathc clowns in government.

There surely would... But why are sociopathic clowns apparently so much better at the political contests than everyone else that they run so many governments?
At the risk of paraphrasing a 40k quote, if only the insane have the strength to prosper, shouldn't those who prosper be fit to judge what is truly sane?

 

[Sir 1000]

Well with that attitudes there will be more gas stations capable of it, it only takes some billions and willingness to ignore treaties only westerners care about.
We need to stop naively "want the peaceful way" at any cost with knowledge that we won't get it, just give the other side a carrot to wave in front of our noses every time they want a concession.

Only the west cares about those treaties because the west has been so untrustworthy in it's treaties and agreements. The west has been the aggressor repeatedly both overtly with war and covertly with ''color revolution's'' so it has a funny way of peaceful.

Looks like the mafia in charge is just playing Game of Thrones with peoples lives. All the while they live it up with the best of everything. I can only hope and pray they're Anti-Christ despises them as much i do

 

[Marduk]

Only the west cares about those treaties because the west has been so untrustworthy in it's treaties and agreements.

So what have them at all, nevermind follow them? It always turns out that in the end a shady country like Russia, China or Iran is playing fast and loose with them, which is most clearly visible with weapon restriction treaties.

The west has been the aggressor repeatedly both overtly with war and covertly with ''color revolution's'' so it has a funny way of peaceful.

LMAO. "But color revolutions" is just Russian equivalent of "But they need to have democracy", except minus the cover of liberal idealism, just raw power politics.

Looks like the mafia in charge is just playing Game of Thrones with peoples lives. All the while they live it up with the best of everything. I can only hope and pray they're Anti-Christ despises them as much i do

Implying that you on the other hand want the sympathy of the Anti-Christ ;D?

 

[Sir 1000]

So what have them at all, nevermind follow them? It always turns out that in the end a shady country like Russia, China or Iran is playing fast and loose with them, which is most clearly visible with weapon restriction treaties.

LMAO. "But color revolutions" is just Russian equivalent of "But they need to have democracy", except minus the cover of liberal idealism, just raw power politics.

Implying that you on the other hand want the sympathy of the Anti-Christ ;D?

I'm saying don't be surprised when others don't follow them, I don't give a shit about ''muh wussia'' powertics in Ukraine of all places the west shouldn't have couped them if it meant the current situation. Doing the shit America has been doing was just terrible strategy that was needlessly wasteful in lives and wealth.

That's not what that means.
The current evil shit's in charge want the guy obviously

 

[Marduk]

I'm saying don't be surprised when others don't follow them, I don't give a shit about ''muh wussia'' powertics in Ukraine of all places the west shouldn't have couped them if it meant the current situation.

The West should coup colonial projects of its rivals, fuck them.
Are you going to tell North Koreans too that they should shut up and be happy with their lot because being couped by the West would offend Chicoms or something?

Doing the shit America has been doing was just terrible strategy that was needlessly wasteful in lives and wealth.

The people who complain about America doing things at all have only worse alternatives.

 

[LordsFire]

Only the west cares about those treaties because the west has been so untrustworthy in it's treaties and agreements. The west has been the aggressor repeatedly both overtly with war and covertly with ''color revolution's'' so it has a funny way of peaceful.

I'm sorry, but you are implying that Russia, China, Iran, have been trustworthy in the treaties they've signed?

 

[strunkenwhite]

Do you not believe nukes are for real?
Or are people just expendable to you?

And to pop the bubble of your "bothsame" - Russia has a system of bunkers in which to shelter up to 50% of their population if things go hot - or so I've been told anyway.

The USA? Well they have plans for "continuity of government"..... continuity of the governed? Not so much.

All your jingoism rings hollow when one looks at how little the American govt elite really cares about that country's actual citizens.

Do you honestly expect people to believe that the American government is less considerate of the lives of its citizens than the Russian one?

As for this 50% of the population having bunkers thing, do you have any source at all? I'd suspect that if there's any basis at all for it they're being very, very generous with the definition of bunker, such that the USA could probably boast better under a similar definition. Like, "How many people could theoretically be crammed into the Russian deep subway system?"

 

[ATP]

If the USA were to up and invade Mexico or Canada with the goal of replacing the governments there with ones more submissive to US policy, I think someone like Marduk would be cheering. And if China or Russia started sending weapons/etc to those countries to help them defend themselves, he'd consider this an act of war against the USA on their part.

But the mental operation you are asking him to do: model how other people might act towards him based on how he would act to them if they did what he wants to do... I don't know if the rulers of the West are wanting to die, or are just not mentally capable of seeing that outcome.

Most likely they see "everyone dies in a nuclear fireball" as something that would only apply to other people.

What if it apply only to plebs like me,but not our glorious owners? War from their perspective is not bad thing,then.
To be honest,if i were in their shoes,i could do the same.
I am not as good as i should be.

But - it could be ruse,and both sides - USA and Moscov - play that game to create world goverment.Not impossible.

I'm sorry, but you are implying that Russia, China, Iran, have been trustworthy in the treaties they've signed?

Yup.You could trust,that they screw over you!
Jokes aside - compilation from polish press about Izrael:

1.Izrael ambassador in Poland, Yacov Livne,would agree eventually to free Palestine,if they do not have weapons and do not teach hate in their books.Like writing that jews are "sons of pigs"

ery funny - considering,that Moscov agree to such "free" Ukraine,and in jewish cartoon Mous we poles are not son of pigs,but simply pigs.

2.The same ambassador,after Izrael murdered workers of WCK,and some poles dare to protest,claimed that "antysemites would be antysemites".And that izrael is fighting for entire western world.

3.He also attacked one of polish universities in Toruń - becouse they cancelled meeting with jewish writer Jakow Szechter,who support murdering palestinian children.
Becouse of that,according to ambassador,it was antisemitism.

in every normal country,he would be arleady kicked out.Sadly,we are not normal country.

4.Murder on WCK workers was described by "Haarec' as izrael suicide - and,they,in long run,are right.

5.But,they could be sometimes right - son of current premier, Yair Natanjahu,claimed,that EU would cease to exist,if it not become free and christian again.Well,i agree on that - but i do not see much hope here.

Last thing - we poles are ruled either by traitors,who follow jews becouse they are strong now/but would kill them tomorrow,if muslim become stronger/ and naive socialists,who belive that if we explain Izrael how History really looked like,they would stop attacking us.
It is stupid - Izrael knew,that "polish antisemitism" is bullshit,but use it as mace to made us follow them.
Just like with rest of world.
It could last for some time,but when it finally backfire...well,stupid polish catholics would hide jews again.Die again for that.And surviving jews would blame us.

Joy,How great to be polish catholic...

 

[Scottty]

What if it apply only to plebs like me,but not our glorious owners? War from their perspective is not bad thing,then.
To be honest,if i were in their shoes,i could do the same.
I am not as good as i should be.

But - it could be ruse,and both sides - USA and Moscov - play that game to create world goverment.Not impossible.


Yup.You could trust,that they screw over you!
Jokes aside - compilation from polish press about Izrael:

1.Izrael ambassador in Poland, Yacov Livne,would agree eventually to free Palestine,if they do not have weapons and do not teach hate in their books.Like writing that jews are "sons of pigs"

ery funny - considering,that Moscov agree to such "free" Ukraine,and in jewish cartoon Mous we poles are not son of pigs,but simply pigs.

2.The same ambassador,after Izrael murdered workers of WCK,and some poles dare to protest,claimed that "antysemites would be antysemites".And that izrael is fighting for entire western world.

3.He also attacked one of polish universities in Toruń - becouse they cancelled meeting with jewish writer Jakow Szechter,who support murdering palestinian children.
Becouse of that,according to ambassador,it was antisemitism.

in every normal country,he would be arleady kicked out.Sadly,we are not normal country.

4.Murder on WCK workers was described by "Haarec' as izrael suicide - and,they,in long run,are right.

5.But,they could be sometimes right - son of current premier, Yair Natanjahu,claimed,that EU would cease to exist,if it not become free and christian again.Well,i agree on that - but i do not see much hope here.

Last thing - we poles are ruled either by traitors,who follow jews becouse they are strong now/but would kill them tomorrow,if muslim become stronger/ and naive socialists,who belive that if we explain Izrael how History really looked like,they would stop attacking us.
It is stupid - Izrael knew,that "polish antisemitism" is bullshit,but use it as mace to made us follow them.
Just like with rest of world.
It could last for some time,but when it finally backfire...well,stupid polish catholics would hide jews again.Die again for that.And surviving jews would blame us.

Joy,How great to be polish catholic...

 

[49ersfootball]

Do you honestly expect people to believe that the American government is less considerate of the lives of its citizens than the Russian one?

As for this 50% of the population having bunkers thing, do you have any source at all? I'd suspect that if there's any basis at all for it they're being very, very generous with the definition of bunker, such that the USA could probably boast better under a similar definition. Like, "How many people could theoretically be crammed into the Russian deep subway system?"

Can we focus on the task at hand here ? Israel's military operation of exterminating Hamas once & for all including those uppity Palestinians.

 

[TheRejectionist]