United States 2021 VA, NJ & MD Statewide Thread

[History Learner]

What on earth are you on about?

You said the gop didn't get much done under Trump.

I said that was because the gop leadership hated Trump and did what they could to oppose him.

You said that was cope because otherwise Trump would go after the leadership.

I said he does go after the leadership all the time.

Then you said that doesn't make sense.

I feel that I'm responding coherently to your points but I'm not sure why you think I'm not.

It makes absolutely no sense to claim the GOP leadership was somehow able to constrain Trump from doing stuff but then also claim Trump went after them; somehow they can prevent Trump from doing beneficial policy but they can’t stop him from coming after them directly? Think man, think.

Even if we take this cope at face value, how exactly is Trump supposed to do better with them in a second term when he failed utterly in the first term?

He is either a coward, corrupt or stupid, there is no other explanation.

 

[Bigking321]

It makes absolutely no sense to claim the GOP leadership was somehow able to constrain Trump from doing stuff but then also claim Trump went after them; somehow they can prevent Trump from doing beneficial policy but they can’t stop him from coming after them directly? Think man, think.

Ah, I see the problem. What I said was

He goes after Republican leadership all the time. He has a list of Republicans they are trying to primary out of office. Every other week or so he releases a statement calling Republicans out.

If you will notice all of that is in the current tense. That is what Trump is currently doing after the Republican leaderships backstabbing has been revealed.

What you've done is somehow confuse all of the present tense stuff for past tense stuff. Implying that I'm saying Trump did all that when the Republican leadership was hiding its backstabbing from everyone and acting like they were all on the same team.

I'm not sure how you managed to do that. What i wrote was fairly clear.

Hopefully this clears up your confusion.

Even if we take this cope at face value, how exactly is Trump supposed to do better with them in a second term when he failed utterly in the first term?

I have no idea, but if it were me I would go and clean house, fire and replace EVERYONE, and not trust any Republican leadership ever again.

 

[49ersfootball]

Most Virginia school districts disobeying Youngkin on order making masks optional: report

A majority of Virginia public school districts are flouting Gov. Glenn Youngkin’s (R) executive order that makes wearing masks optional for children in the state’s s…

thehill.com

These school districts are asking to getting their asses kicked!

 

[Morphic Tide]

It makes absolutely no sense to claim the GOP leadership was somehow able to constrain Trump from doing stuff but then also claim Trump went after them; somehow they can prevent Trump from doing beneficial policy but they can’t stop him from coming after them directly? Think man, think.

They could stop him from doing beneficial policy because they were the actual policy makers, but they have very limited capacity for censorship and don't have the primary process locked down in full so Trump's actions after the fact can't really be stopped.

President is Executive, the GOP leadership had the Republican legislature and no small part of the judicial well under their thumb, with the Democrats having most of the rest.

 

[Cherico]

I'm old enough to distinctly remember people saying the same thing about Obama in 2010/2011 and, of course, the same thing about Biden in 2019/2020.

Obama was the first black president and was personally charismatic. Biden had to be hidden from the press and they still needed to openly cheat to get him into office.

 

[History Learner]

They could stop him from doing beneficial policy because they were the actual policy makers, but they have very limited capacity for censorship and don't have the primary process locked down in full so Trump's actions after the fact can't really be stopped.

President is Executive, the GOP leadership had the Republican legislature and no small part of the judicial well under their thumb, with the Democrats having most of the rest.

In which case we can deduce Trump is simply a coward or mentally handicapped. If Trump is unable to effectively fight them, he needs to be casted aside as the absolute failure and joke he is. If you contend he does have power to fight them, then the fact he failed to wield it at all in four years makes him a complicit or too mentally unsound to hold the office he wants to return to.

None of these copes make any sense at all when subjected to the barest amount of critical thinking.

 

[History Learner]

Obama was the first black president and was personally charismatic. Biden had to be hidden from the press and they still needed to openly cheat to get him into office.

Complacency should never be exercised in politics. I don't really remember 2000, but I also remember the shenanigans of 2004, and definitely 2016 too.

 

[History Learner]

Ah, I see the problem. What I said was



If you will notice all of that is in the current tense. That is what Trump is currently doing after the Republican leaderships backstabbing has been revealed.

What you've done is somehow confuse all of the present tense stuff for past tense stuff. Implying that I'm saying Trump did all that when the Republican leadership was hiding its backstabbing from everyone and acting like they were all on the same team.

I'm not sure how you managed to do that. What i wrote was fairly clear.

Hopefully this clears up your confusion.

How involved/engaged were you in 2016? I ask this seriously because I was a campaign volunteer for Republicans in 2015/2016 and did some work with Students for Trump.

Edit: I actually just realized you've goal post shifted, and are definitely not being clear. If you are actually talking about the here and now for Trump's actions then my original claim-which you disputed-stands conceded. You claim GOP Establishment backstabbing prevented him from achieving anything policy wise during his term, which by necessity is in the past tense given Trump is not President. Whatever Trump is doing now is irrelevant for the fact he failed to do it during his term. He's either a coward, an idiot, or corrupt, as I've said.

I have no idea, but if it were me I would go and clean house, fire and replace EVERYONE, and not trust any Republican leadership ever again.

That would include most of his family and donor base. At a certain point-after four years-you have to stop making excuses for someone refusing to see what the problem is because then the only answer becomes themselves.

 

[Morphic Tide]

If you contend he does have power to fight them, then the fact he failed to wield it at all in four years makes him a complicit or too mentally unsound to hold the office he wants to return to.

...What part of "they were the actual policy makers" do you not understand? This is extremely basic government functions here. The bulk of the Republican congressmen sided with the GOP leadership, because they are the very same political apparatus.

As President, Trump could not declare the bullshit over by fiat, because there are limitations on the seat, and had to deal with the workload of being President. As an activist, he can spend all his time riling up crowds to vote swamp creatures out in primaries.

Simply put, "President Donald Trump" is fundamentally worse for fixing the issues than "Rallying Caller Donald Trump".

 

[WolfBear]

It's pure copium, Trump has no problems with naming and shaming those who directly cross him. That he didn't leads to the inevitable conclusion he is either a coward, incompetent or, the actual answer, that he's complicit. If we accept the MAGA movement's claims today, he won a landslide victory (somehow) in 2020 and is the frontrunner in GOP politics going into 2024; there is no excuse he was constrained by the "GOP Establishment" with this claimed level of popular support.

Maybe they claim that the GOP establishment is a part of the deep state and that the deep state can try defying even giant popular margins in opposition to it?

 

[History Learner]

...What part of "they were the actual policy makers" do you not understand? This is extremely basic government functions here. The bulk of the Republican congressmen sided with the GOP leadership, because they are the very same political apparatus.

As President, Trump could not declare the bullshit over by fiat, because there are limitations on the seat, and had to deal with the workload of being President. As an activist, he can spend all his time riling up crowds to vote swamp creatures out in primaries.

Simply put, "President Donald Trump" is fundamentally worse for fixing the issues than "Rallying Caller Donald Trump".

Then we can conclude, once again, Trump is an idiot or a coward. If GOP Congressmen were "betraying him" as openly as you allege, where was "Rallying Caller Donald Trump" from 2017 to 2021? He failed to do anything, even endorsed said Congressmen twice within the space of his term. Let's also acknowledge the beauty of you admitting there is exactly zero reason to vote for him as President again because he is ineffective in that position. Don't feed me that line of bullshit about him doing too busy to do his duties either when he made time to go to Florida and golf instead of building that Wall or throwing Clinton in jail.

 

[History Learner]

Maybe they claim that the GOP establishment is a part of the deep state and that the deep state can try defying even giant popular margins in opposition to it?

In which case, that's a vote against Trump because if he can't do it, you need to find someone who actually can.

 

[WolfBear]

In which case, that's a vote against Trump because if he can't do it, you need to find someone who actually can.

Agreed. Honestly, I don't get why exactly so many Republicans still like Trump when he's more of a MIGA Chud than a MAGA Chad and when it seems like he cares more about personal enrichment than about the well-being of the country.

 

[Bigking321]

and when it seems like he cares more about personal enrichment than about the well-being of the country.

Could you elaborate on this? Trump lost quite a lot by being president and didn't take a salary. It seems like he cared more about the country than his personal enrichment.

Not like Hillary with their Clinton foundation or the Biden crime family's backroom deals and Hunter’s "Art Gallery".

 

[WolfBear]

Could you elaborate on this? Trump lost quite a lot by being president and didn't take a salary. It seems like he cared more about the country than his personal enrichment.

Not like Hillary with their Clinton foundation or the Biden crime family's backroom deals and Hunter’s "Art Gallery".

Trump gave control over his businesses to his sons rather than outright selling them. This ensured that foreign leaders and foreign politicians could make deals with Trump's businesses through his sons if they ever wanted to influence Trump.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Trump gave control over his businesses to his sons rather than outright selling them. This ensured that foreign leaders and foreign politicians could make deals with Trump's businesses through his sons if they ever wanted to influence Trump.

So...give me an example of a foreign country giving money/deals to his sons to influence Trump. How did that influence shape Trump's actions/decisions?

I can specifically site examples where this has already happened in Hunter Biden's case. Can you do they same in regards to Trump's family?

 

[WolfBear]

So...give me an example of a foreign country giving money/deals to his sons to influence Trump. How did that influence shape Trump's actions/decisions?

I can specifically site examples where this has already happened in Hunter Biden's case. Can you do they same in regards to Trump's family?

What about this? :

https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2021/06/how-foreign-influence-can-corrupt-a-president-legally/

When Donald Trump made Saudi Arabia his first foreign destination as president and received a royal welcome, do you think it might have crossed his mind that his ultrarich hosts were people with whom he could do business—not only during but after his presidency?

When he stood beside Russian President Vladimir Putin in Helsinki and seemed to take Putin’s word over that of U.S. intelligence agencies, do you think that, at least in the back of his mind, he might have seen Putin as someone with the power to reward him in the future?

When he caved to Turkey’s autocratic leader and exposed American allies to a Turkish military onslaught by withdrawing U.S. forces from part of Syria, do you suppose he was thinking at all of his business relationship with Turkey, already home to Trump Towers Istanbul?

Trump also made the Saudis very pleased with his anti-Iran stance--the sanctions, the nuclear deal withdrawal, the Qasem Soleimani assassination, et cetera.

 

[Bigking321]

Trump gave control over his businesses to his sons rather than outright selling them. This ensured that foreign leaders and foreign politicians could make deals with Trump's businesses through his sons if they ever wanted to influence Trump.

And after all the scrutiny and efforts to slander Trump was there ever any evidence of that happening?

I know trumps businesses started losing a lot of money because all the blue states and cities tried to get them to close, sued them over every thing they could, and revoking permits and licenses.

Trump also made the Saudis very pleased with his anti-Iran stance--the sanctions, the nuclear deal withdrawal, the Qasem Soleimani assassination, et cetera

Yeah, going feather soft on Iran and that horrifically bad treaty were Obama Era policies Trump specifically ran against. That's just returning to the normal state of affairs before Obama. Nothing special or unusual there at all.

 

[WolfBear]

And after all the scrutiny and efforts to slander Trump was there ever any evidence of that happening?

I know trumps businesses started losing a lot of money because all the blue states and cities tried to get them to close, sued them over every thing they could, and revoking permits and licenses.



Yeah, going feather soft on Iran and that horrifically bad treaty were Obama Era policies Trump specifically ran against. That's just returning to the normal state of affairs before Obama. Nothing special or unusual there at all.

I don't know because I don't know what kind of foreign business deals Trump's sons actually made when they controlled his businesses.

Was the Iran nuclear deal really that bad?

 

[The Whispering Monk]

What about this? :

So...you want to hold someone liable for maybe's and what-could-happens? That's pretty silly. Also, what a President does after office is not any of my concern unless he's trying to hurt Americans.

I'll even play along with the 1st 3 on the article:
1. Saudi Arabia: Trump was able to leverage influence with Saudi Arabia to actually push through the first real efforts at Mid-East peace we've seen in decades. One thing many overlook is that you have to form relationships with people if you want to get them to do something. Trump is a consummate salesman, and he knows how to get people moving in the direction he wants. This is a prime example of such.
2. Ahhhh...Russian Collusion 2.0. This might be somewhat interesting except that most of what Trump did in the energy field was shooting Putin in his economic dick. Energy free America that exports natural gas to Europe means that Europe isn't beholden to Putin for their winter energy. That's a good thing, and definitely now supporting Putin.
3. Trump campaigned on getting the US the fuck out of the ME. His own military commander LIED TO THE PRESIDENT instead of following his orders to clear out of Syria. This was delivering on his stated goals.

Unless you can show me a direct incentive offered by a party WHILE TRUMP WAS IN OFFICE then GTFOH with this nonsense.

Trump also made the Saudis very pleased with his anti-Iran stance--the sanctions, the nuclear deal withdrawal, the Qasem Soleimani assassination, et cetera.

Are you seriously telling me that b/c Trump was tough on Iran, someone else gained benefit, so Trump was in that entities pocket? That's juvenile in it's simplification. The world is full of actors (state or otherwise) that look to take advantage of any situation. Saudi Arabia is terrified of an exultant Iran. Of course they're going to be ecstatic that the US puts their sanctions back in place.