I would expect Jewish-Polish intermarriage to eventually become a huge thing in this TL. Also, Jewish-Lithuanian, Jewish-Belarusian, and Jewish-Ukrainian intermarriage. I would also presume that the "civilizing" influences of the Jewish Enlightenment in places such as Germany would eventually spread to the PLC, though I don't know when exactly.
Alternate History Ideas and Discussion
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I would expect Jewish-Polish intermarriage to eventually become a huge thing in this TL. Also, Jewish-Lithuanian, Jewish-Belarusian, and Jewish-Ukrainian intermarriage. I would also presume that the "civilizing" influences of the Jewish Enlightenment in places such as Germany would eventually spread to the PLC, though I don't know when exactly.
TheRomanSlayer
Putang Ina Mo, Katolikong Hayop!
So basically we'd see more Jewish noble families emerge, largely through intermarriages? Given that the majority of the intermarriages would involve more Jewish daughters than Jewish sons (one is considered a Jew if the mother is also a Jew, right?) I would also suspect that there would be a radically different kind of Polish Enlightenment that wouldn't be as destructive as the OTL French Enlightenment.
On the other hand, given that Yiddish would become a lot more prevalent as a language among the Jews of the PLC, would that also kill off the incentive to develop (or rather, redevelop) a kind of Judaeo-Slavic creole that would be common within the PLC?
I guess for this kind of thing to happen, you'd need to have the Polish crown to be able to suppress the Cossack rebellions, or lessen the devastating effects of the Deluge for this to happen. One possible outcome of a surviving Jewish community in the PLC would also be economical in nature. Think the rise of the Rothschild dynasty, but concentrated within just one kingdom.
Buba
A total creep
Yiddish in the former PLC had lots of Slavic loan words. I believe you can string entire - if short? - sentences which a Polish or Belarus speaker - with no knowledge of German/Yiddish - is capable of understanding.
Jews in the ex-PLC spoke Yiddish as first language. I'm fairly certain that having one of the Slavic languages as first language was a 2nd half of XIXth century development.
As to effect of no partitions on Jewish culture - a fascinating subject but I've no idea.
Jews in the ex-PLC spoke Yiddish as first language. I'm fairly certain that having one of the Slavic languages as first language was a 2nd half of XIXth century development.
As to effect of no partitions on Jewish culture - a fascinating subject but I've no idea.
Batrix2070
RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Well, not really, the Polish Enlightenment was actually quite destructive to the PLC and yet mild in its construction. They were mostly introduced by Catholics priests, who cut out every more murderous piece as non-Catholic. But Poniatowski, trying to push through reforms, chose a much more radical and unacceptable path by the nobility. There was, of course, another path widely supported and not at all worse than the one chosen, but it would have required Poniatowski to be less of a typical cosmopolitan believer in Enlightenment order and absolutism, who, seeing Poland's problems, at the same time held contempt for what had built Poland, i.e. Polishness, and more of a Sarmatian rooted in Polish culture, understanding that some of the "good" ideas of that era fit PLC like a fist to the nose.
They would be more likely to adopt Polish than to create a new language. And anyway, Jews in the old PLC were famous for speaking poor Polish!
Akurat does not need that much change. It is enough that we remove a certain miracle from the 18th and remove the main reason for the partitions, namely Prussia, which gained the most from them.
Without the miracle of the House of Brandenburg, Prussia would have been crushed by the anti-Prussian coalition, taken to pieces and regressed back to being the Margraviate of Brandenburg.
Thus, instead of the unequal tripartite balasino that was OTL, we have a kind of cold war between Austria and Russia over who will have the PLC on their side. In such a scenario, Poland can at most lose some pieces of its part of Rus and not its independence.
Buba
A total creep
They were still renowned for their atrocious Polish (think Jar Jar Binks) up to WWII ...
Don't forget that for about a decade of those years Russia was in WWI then even more devastating for the country the civil war and chaos that accompanied it. If the 1914 non-mobilized Russian army went up against the 1919-22 Red Army in a straight up fight then even with the corruption and nepotism in the former it would be a slaughter. I'm not saying that urbanization would be dramatic and without Stalin's forced industrialization its likely to be even slower but the overall wealth of the ordinary population is likely to be higher and that's often the key thing in terms of birth rates. Especially if accompanied by better education.
Well Poland had long controlled and sought to 'convert' large chunks of lands that were Orthodox then after Russia become the dominant member of the relationship it returned the 'favour'. You only have to think how willing Poland is to aid Ukraine now, albeit that religion is less a matter there than basic geopolitics.
Batrix2070
RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
I'm know.
TheRomanSlayer
Putang Ina Mo, Katolikong Hayop!
I also think that nerfing Prussia (Ducal Prussia, that is) would also work as well, since its meteoric rise could have been preventable, although I wonder if it would be possible for Poland to annex all of Ducal Prussia entirely.
Batrix2070
RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Yes, It is enough that one does not give up care of the Prussian Holenzorn line to its Brandenburg line and does not allow the Brandenburg line to inherit in this way as they die out then automatically as in the case of the Duchy of Mazovia, Prussia will be incorporated into the Crown.
That or a bit more fanciful, let Albrech Friedrich, the second prince of Prussia be elected King of Poland, which was a viable OTL candidate. We can take a swipe at the fact that he will not have a mental illness, thus avoiding entanglement in complicated legal issues and the like.
BWT was when the Prussian homage was accepted, a commonly taken for granted that with when the Prussian holenzorns die out the rest of Prussia goes to the Crown. Rather, no one expected how easily they would slip away.
Another thing is that it is possible to annex Prussia in another way, let Sigismund I the Old not accept the fief tribute but annex directly the former Teutonic Order to the Crown and put his nephew on the stool of Voivode. (Or grant him, by way of exception, the title of titular Prince without a specific territory.)
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Buba
A total creep
Yup. A pity he was bonkers. I'd had loved Olbracht (Olde Polish rendition of Albrecht) being elected King instead of the Frenchman (Henri Valoise) or the Transylvanian (Bathory Istvan).
To clarify a fact few non-Polish and not that many Polish readers are aware of - Albrecht I of Prussia, last ruling Grandmaster, was Sigusmund's "sister-son", as Tolkien would say in Rohirric
I've seen this idea of making Albrecht a magnate and not a sovereign prince on a Polish board - IMO good!
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All true.
During Batory Rule local people asked to be ruled by Poland,and agree to pay high taxes.He choosed Hohenzollerns propositions,becouse they paid more for his war with Moscov - but only for two years.
Very bad decision.
Batory and Zamoyski are responsible for that mistake.
Well, the US was prosperous in the immediate post-WWII era and yet still had a high birth rate back then. Ditto for much of the West. But birth rates weren't as high as they were in early 20th century Russia, of course. So, you could be right here.
Poland is quite willing to aid Ukraine right now, no?
Also, another AHC for you:
If WWI doesn't happen in 1914 or at any point in the near future beyond 1914, can you still think of any realistic way to make Greater Romania happen? (Bessarabia and northern Bukovina are optional additions to Greater Romania; Transylvania, southern Bukovina, the eastern Banat, et cetera are not, though.)
Well, the US was prosperous in the immediate post-WWII era and yet still had a high birth rate back then. Ditto for much of the West. But birth rates weren't as high as they were in early 20th century Russia, of course. So, you could be right here.
Poland is quite willing to aid Ukraine right now, no?
Also, another AHC for you:
If WWI doesn't happen in 1914 or at any point in the near future beyond 1914, can you still think of any realistic way to make Greater Romania happen? (Bessarabia and northern Bukovina are optional additions to Greater Romania; Transylvania, southern Bukovina, the eastern Banat, et cetera are not, though.)
Well if the war doesn't happen and the Hapsburg empire collapses into chaos at some point - which could however prompt a general war because as Germany's only real ally [and the other empire with a Germanic leadership] Berlin is likely to do just about anything it can to keep it together. Possibly in the resulting chaos Romania has a more successful late entry into the conflict than OTL and gains Transylvania, and possibly other areas in the following years.
Alternatively a crisis in 1916 over the renewal of the Dual Monarchy prompts a 'Hungarian' revolt and for whatever reason the dynasty is struggling to hold it so Romania gets an 'alliance' with the empire to take down the Magyar leadership and cutting down their power, in the process again getting territory from Hungary.
To get as big as suggested would require a lot of luck and also Romania will still be at best a medium sized power and as such vulnerable to nearby great powers, most noticeably Germany and Russia either of which without other distraction are in a totally different league.
I think that for the Hapsburg Empire to collapse into chaos you'd need a full-on revolution, no? Which is theoretically possible given Franz Ferdinand neo-absolutist tendencies, but by no means guaranteed. And once Otto von Hapsburg becomes Emperor of A-H, then things should become easier due to his likely more progressive views.
FWIW, FF actually did flirt with the idea of giving Romania Transylvania in exchange for having Romania as a whole join A-H as an autonomous unit or something like that:
It would be good for Romania to have a Great Power protector, such as France, Britain, and/or the US. Of course, I did say that Bessarabia and northern Bukovina are optional gains for Romania in this TL, which also makes it possible to have Russia as a Romanian protector.
Anyway, another question for you, Steve: Just how big of a movement do you think that Zionism is going to be in a TL without both Nazism and Communism?
Buba
A total creep
That much of a difference? Power hungry mass murderers both?
The ISOT would fuck up the economy more, though.
Would Communism in the pre-industrial era really suck, though? I mean, capitalism didn't really exist back then, did it?
It would depend on the circumstances as to remove both those factors would mean a lot of changes to the world. Is there an independent Poland and what is the status of Russia as those regions are where the bulk of the Jewish population is and hence the biggest source of potential settlers - albeit that early on Zionism was largely a western based idea. However assuming the mass slaughter of European Jews doesn't occur - or anything like that level - then the public support for a Jewish state in the western world is going to be markedly weaker and antisemitism is still going to be more acceptable across the world.
As such the drivers for a Jewish state and more generally for better treatment for Jews and more tolerance will be reduced. However without major butterflies in the west there will be a move toward reducing persecution/discrimination and given the historical importance of Judaism to Christianity there will be sympathy in many - but not all - quarters for them.
A lot would depend on when. Prior to him gaining great power 'Lenin' could struggle as there are a number of other players in classical times who could be every bit as violent and ruthless as him so he could find himself either a minor player or dead. Also Lenin was never a military leader so either the Gallic wars or the civil wars could be a disaster for a Lenin Caesar.
If after he's gained pretty much total power and assuming he's given Julius's background knowledge of course probably not much difference. Both were totalitarian in character and utterly egotistical. The only thing in Lenin's favour is that he will presumably know something of Caesar's fate so would try and avoid that. However if say Brutus and Cassius met a bloody fate prior to their planning it could make others nervous/angry enough that somebody else sticks the knives in.
Lenin could also be smart enough to try avoiding making himself dictator for life like Caesar tried to do, though given Lenin's personality, that's probably very unlikely.
'AHC: If Russia avoids Bolshevism in 1917, have a European Union-style confederation still eventually develop in Europe, only without Russia. But have Russia still have extremely close ties to this EU-style confederation'