Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

[TheRomanSlayer]

Moscow would not be changed by woman.Well,could be,if that Jagiellon princess murdered her husband and become tsarica,like Katherina later !

If she had a child with Vasily III in this scenario and he dies on schedule, Jagiellon princess in question would be the regent ruling on behalf of her son. However, she would face serious opposition from the Orthodox boyars who might not take too kindly to a Catholic regent. Of course, if the marriage was childless, then it would fall to Yuri of Uglich or Andrei of Staritsa to succeed their dead brother. Basically the Russian equivalent of Stannis vs Renly in the Stormlands, but transplanted to Muscovy.

 

[Buba]

Another likely scenario - coterie of boyars or Yuri of Uglich or Andrei of Staritsa become regents by force, with Tsaritsa Dowager being sent to the Silent Sisters a monastery.

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

Another likely scenario - coterie of boyars or Yuri of Uglich or Andrei of Staritsa become regents by force, with Tsaritsa Dowager being sent to the Silent Sisters a monastery.

If it was the alternate Jagiellon wife of Vasily III, would she still be a Catholic or would she have converted to Orthodoxy?

Probably both Yuri of Uglich and Andrei of Staritsa might establish their own houses in defiance of their presumably dead brother.

 

[Buba]

Conversion is a toss up. The marriage contract could have it either way. The children would be orthodox, though.

 

[WolfBear]

@stevep @Skallagrim @TheRomanSlayer @History Learner @Zyobot @raharris1973 Without the 1947 partition of India, would the Muslims in present-day Pakistan and Bangladesh have been much more religiously moderate? What about if the lack of a partition of India would have been combined with a surviving Ottoman Empire?

 

[WolfBear]

Interesting. Also, during which war? WWI or WWII?

Also, another AHC, but a rather gruesome one that I certainly never actually wish to happen:

'AHC: Have another group survive primarily the result of huge numbers of them successfully fleeing far, far away similar to what many of the Ashkenazi Jews in the Pale of Settlement did between 1840 and 1942 in real life, thus ensuring that they and their descendants would survive the impending Holocaust.'

Any ideas in regards to this, @stevep?

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

Interesting. Also, during which war? WWI or WWII?

WWII in particular, although there wasn't that much anti-Bulgarian resistance during WWI either/

However, the only kind of anti-Bulgarian resistance movements that I know of would have come from either the Serbs operating in Macedonia, or by Macedonian communists.

Also, another AHC, but a rather gruesome one that I certainly never actually wish to happen:

'AHC: Have another group survive primarily the result of huge numbers of them successfully fleeing far, far away similar to what many of the Ashkenazi Jews in the Pale of Settlement did between 1840 and 1942 in real life, thus ensuring that they and their descendants would survive the impending Holocaust.'

Would a larger exodus of the Roma population from Europe into whichever part of the world that would be willing to accept them count? Not sure which part of the world would suit a Roma homeland in this case.

 

[WolfBear]

Not sure which part of the world would suit a Roma homeland in this case.

India, perhaps?

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

India, perhaps?

Most likely, although which part of India would be best suited for a Roma homeland?

 

[WolfBear]

Most likely, although which part of India would be best suited for a Roma homeland?

Wherever they want. But it would be within a huge unified Indian state.

 

[Atarlost]

Would a larger exodus of the Roma population from Europe into whichever part of the world that would be willing to accept them count? Not sure which part of the world would suit a Roma homeland in this case.

Wikipedia's population numbers suggests this happened to some extent. The highest concentrations may still be in the Balkans, but 0.4% of Brazil or an insignificant fraction of the USA is more than 8.3% of Romania or 9% of Slovakia.

India, perhaps?

After so many centuries do most of them really have any ties to India? I can't find demographics for the whole of the Roma, but they tend to reflect the religions of their neighbors. India would not welcome Muslim Romani, unless you mean India as in the British Raj not modern India. No part of India would be attractive to Christian Romani.

 

[stevep]

Any ideas in regards to this, @stevep?

Well if your referring to any Holocaust the obvious candidate might be Armenians escaping Ottoman rule for some reason in the decades prior to the Ottomans massacres of 1915/16. Or possibly on a similar theme the Asyrian Christians for some reason fleeing Mesopotamia and escaping their own massacre by the Ottomans a bit later.

There were other mass slaughters, such as of the Dzungar by the Qing dynasty in the 18th century and as a partially nomadic group they might have had a better chance to flee. Interesting that the Dzungar who were Buddhist treated some of the groups they ruled badly including members of the Muslim Uyghurs who as a result aided in their destruction and were resettled in former's territories, where ironically they now face genocide by the Chinese.

There are probably other examples in history but those were the ones that come to mind.

In terms of the Nazis there were other groups that were persecuted by them, but other than the Jews and Roma I think most were either political groups, such as socialists and communists or other groups such as the physically or mental handicapped or homosexuals. Of course later probably many other groups would have been targeted for widespread massacres but fortunately they were defeated.

 

[ATP]

Well if your referring to any Holocaust the obvious candidate might be Armenians escaping Ottoman rule for some reason in the decades prior to the Ottomans massacres of 1915/16. Or possibly on a similar theme the Asyrian Christians for some reason fleeing Mesopotamia and escaping their own massacre by the Ottomans a bit later.

There were other mass slaughters, such as of the Dzungar by the Qing dynasty in the 18th century and as a partially nomadic group they might have had a better chance to flee. Interesting that the Dzungar who were Buddhist treated some of the groups they ruled badly including members of the Muslim Uyghurs who as a result aided in their destruction and were resettled in former's territories, where ironically they now face genocide by the Chinese.

There are probably other examples in history but those were the ones that come to mind.

In terms of the Nazis there were other groups that were persecuted by them, but other than the Jews and Roma I think most were either political groups, such as socialists and communists or other groups such as the physically or mental handicapped or homosexuals. Of course later probably many other groups would have been targeted for widespread massacres but fortunately they were defeated.

When mongols come to Europe,steppe belonged to bulgars,some hungarian tribe and kumans.First two was genocided by mongols,remnants of Kumans run to Hungary and eventually become hungarians.

 

[WolfBear]

Well if your referring to any Holocaust the obvious candidate might be Armenians escaping Ottoman rule for some reason in the decades prior to the Ottomans massacres of 1915/16. Or possibly on a similar theme the Asyrian Christians for some reason fleeing Mesopotamia and escaping their own massacre by the Ottomans a bit later.

There were other mass slaughters, such as of the Dzungar by the Qing dynasty in the 18th century and as a partially nomadic group they might have had a better chance to flee. Interesting that the Dzungar who were Buddhist treated some of the groups they ruled badly including members of the Muslim Uyghurs who as a result aided in their destruction and were resettled in former's territories, where ironically they now face genocide by the Chinese.

There are probably other examples in history but those were the ones that come to mind.

In terms of the Nazis there were other groups that were persecuted by them, but other than the Jews and Roma I think most were either political groups, such as socialists and communists or other groups such as the physically or mental handicapped or homosexuals. Of course later probably many other groups would have been targeted for widespread massacres but fortunately they were defeated.

Maybe if Russia actively encourages Ottoman Armenians and Ottoman Assyrians to move to Russia in the pre-WWI years and decades as opposed to trying to use them as geopolitical pawns against the Ottoman Empire? Though this could make the Ottoman Empire less paranoid of its Armenians and Assyrians (and its Greeks as well, if Russia actively encourages them to immigrate to Russia as well), thus making the Ottoman Empire's WWI-era genocides less likely to occur in the first place since these minorities would not be viewed by the Ottomans as fifth columnists like they were viewed in real life.

 

[Buba]

When mongols come to Europe,steppe belonged to bulgars,some hungarian tribe and kumans.First two was genocided by mongols,remnants of Kumans run to Hungary and eventually become hungarians.

By 1240 Bulgars long sedentary and Slavicised.
I agree with the Hungarian offshot - I don't remember their name - Gaugaz? - but remanents live in Moldavia even today.

Kumans may also be known as Cumans, Kipchak or Polovtsy - confusing
Those who did not flee became Tatars. See Volga Bulgars - these also became Tatars ...

 

[ATP]

By 1240 Bulgars long sedentary and Slavicised.
I agree with the Hungarian offshot - I don't remember their name - Gaugaz? - but remanents live in Moldavia even today.

Kumans may also be known as Cumans, Kipchak or Polovtsy - confusing
Those who did not flee became Tatars. See Volga Bulgars - these also became Tatars ...

i was thinking about Volga Bulgars.And no,Tatars are mongol descendents,if bulgars survived there ,they did so as slaves.

 

[WolfBear]

@stevep What odds would you place on the US ever actually entering an alt-WWI where the Anglo-Germano-Italo-Austro-Hungaro-Ottomans face off against the Franco-Russo-Serbians?

 

[Atarlost]

@stevep What odds would you place on the US ever actually entering an alt-WWI where the Anglo-Germano-Italo-Austro-Hungaro-Ottomans face off against the Franco-Russo-Serbians?

I'm not him, but I'd put it at as close to zero as makes no odds. If the Brits and Germans are on the same side there is no unrestricted submarine warfare. If we didn't oppose the Brits blockading Germany we wouldn't have opposed the Brits blockading France.

 

[WolfBear]

After so many centuries do most of them really have any ties to India? I can't find demographics for the whole of the Roma, but they tend to reflect the religions of their neighbors. India would not welcome Muslim Romani, unless you mean India as in the British Raj not modern India. No part of India would be attractive to Christian Romani.

India has native Christians of its own, no? And aren't few Roma Muslim?

I'm not him, but I'd put it at as close to zero as makes no odds. If the Brits and Germans are on the same side there is no unrestricted submarine warfare. If we didn't oppose the Brits blockading Germany we wouldn't have opposed the Brits blockading France.

What about French USW?

 

[Atarlost]

India has native Christians of its own, no? And aren't few Roma Muslim?

You're suggesting they should flee from somewhere that they may be a racial and cultural minority but at least they're part of the dominant religion to a place where they're a racial and cultural and religious minority since they're almost certainly not racially pure Indians after several centuries in Europe.

By most standards there are few Roma full stop. I have no clue how many Roma Muslims there are. I couldn't find religious demographics for the Roma as a whole. I did find references to them existing, though.