Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

[TheRomanSlayer]

AHC: Choose a suitable alternate location within Iran or Central Asia as a different settlement for the Shia Muslim Hazaras instead of keeping them in OTL Hazarajat.

For those of you who don't know, the Hazara ethnic group is one of the peoples that inhabit the highlands of Afghanistan called the Hazarajat. They're also heavily persecuted for their Shia Islamic faith as well, mainly by the Sunni Pashtun majority, although there were also reports of the persecutions of Hazaras in Pakistan IOTL. The Hazaras are also descended from the Mongols that conquered areas of what is now Afghanistan, which is evident by their appearances. In essence, the Hazaras are to the Persian speaking world what the Normans are to the French speaking world.

 

[WolfBear]

AHC: Choose a suitable alternate location within Iran or Central Asia as a different settlement for the Shia Muslim Hazaras instead of keeping them in OTL Hazarajat.

For those of you who don't know, the Hazara ethnic group is one of the peoples that inhabit the highlands of Afghanistan called the Hazarajat. They're also heavily persecuted for their Shia Islamic faith as well, mainly by the Sunni Pashtun majority, although there were also reports of the persecutions of Hazaras in Pakistan IOTL. The Hazaras are also descended from the Mongols that conquered areas of what is now Afghanistan, which is evident by their appearances. In essence, the Hazaras are to the Persian speaking world what the Normans are to the French speaking world.

Simple: Just have the Taliban expel them en masse and subsequently have them resettle somewhere in Iran en masse.

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

Simple: Just have the Taliban expel them en masse and subsequently have them resettle somewhere in Iran en masse.

I was thinking more along the lines of pre-19th century relocation of the Hazaras, not 20th century. I forgot the PoD for this challenge.

 

[WolfBear]

I was thinking more along the lines of pre-19th century relocation of the Hazaras, not 20th century. I forgot the PoD for this challenge.

Have some 18th century Afghan Shah do the same thing, then.

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

Have some 18th century Afghan Shah do the same thing, then.

Good idea then. Most likely the first Afghan ruler Ahmad Shah Durrani would resettle the Hazaras around the OTL Badakshan area or Nuristan area.

 

[Atarlost]

Or if France attacked for real in 1939.

The French Army was not fit for offensive use in 1939, and if they had maintained an army capable of real offensive operations in the interwar period they would have done so over the Sudetenland or Rhineland provocations. That would have meant no WWII and thus no UN.

 

[ATP]

The French Army was not fit for offensive use in 1939, and if they had maintained an army capable of real offensive operations in the interwar period they would have done so over the Sudetenland or Rhineland provocations. That would have meant no WWII and thus no UN.

Enough to go through german 3th rate dyvisions.If they attacked seriously.Poland army was supposed to die holding germans,and we did so,but french failed to stab germans in the back when they were finishing us.

 

[Buba]

It has been said before - in 1939 France simply did not have an army capable of large scale action.
The shortening of military service to 12 months in the 1928-35 period was a killer, as it led to lack of trained reserves.
The extension of service to 24 months in '35 was yet to bear full fruit. Even with half a year of war mobilisation behind it in May '40 the Armee d'Tere was still finding its feet.
Another self inflicted goal was the nationalisation - and resulting mess - of large part of defence industry in '36/37. Infiltration by communists, useful idiots and other traitors was yet another factor.
With all sorts of weapons and equipment entering full scale production in 1940 by 1941 the French military would had been first class. This even without a war and ensuing mobilisation.
Hitler was not stupid in roping in the Soviet Union to start the war when they did.

 

[Zyobot]

'No Scientific Racism'.

 

[WolfBear]

'No Scientific Racism'.

Kind of hard to do, no? So long as there will exist group differences, some people will argue that these differences are innate. Really, "scientific racism" is race realism combined with unfounded conspiratorial fearmongering and theorizing, such as the belief that mixed-race kids are defective:

Is miscegenation bad for your kids?

Generally my stance is that people should date/mate who they want. Furthermore, I don't personally care much about this question or the future survival of statistical clusters (races). Asserting that there are problems with cross-racial mating smacks of 19th century race thinking. However, it would

emilkirkegaard.dk

It's similar to the difference between mainstream conservatism and QAnon.

 

[Doomsought]

. Really, "scientific racism" is race realism combined with unfounded conspiratorial fearmongering and theorizing, such as the belief that mixed-race kids are defective:

Ironically, anyone with knowledge of breeding will come to the exact opposite conclusion of racists: Race mixing promotes health and suppresses genetic defects. Also, if different races actually did have significantly different traits, you would want to multi-generation eugenic hybridizations to acquire the best traits of other races into your own progeny.

 

[WolfBear]

Ironically, anyone with knowledge of breeding will come to the exact opposite conclusion of racists: Race mixing promotes health and suppresses genetic defects. Also, if different races actually did have significantly different traits, you would want to multi-generation eugenic hybridizations to acquire the best traits of other races into your own progeny.

Hey, I have absolutely no problem with, say, non-whites using white sperm donors and then using IVF plus embryo selection for desirable traits/genes in order to choose the best possible offspring.

I think that light-skinned black people are more physically attractive than dark-skinned black people anyway. Ditto for lighter-skinned Hispanics/Latin Americans.

 

[Zyobot]

‘John Kerry Runs In 2008’.

Given his (probable) GOP opponent here, perhaps Between Two Johns would be a good TL name?

 

[WolfBear]

‘John Kerry Runs In 2008’.

Given his (probable) GOP opponent here, perhaps Between Two Johns would be a good TL name?

Simple. Have John Kerry win in 2004 and then have him run for reelection in 2008.

But if he still loses in 2004, then maybe he could be a suitable compromise candidate in a deadlocked 2008 Democratic National Convention in a TL where neither Clinton nor Obama actually win a majority of pledged delegates?

 

[Zyobot]

Simple. Have John Kerry win in 2004 and then have him run for reelection in 2008.

But if he still loses in 2004, then maybe he could be a suitable compromise candidate in a deadlocked 2008 Democratic National Convention in a TL where neither Clinton nor Obama actually win a majority of pledged delegates?

Hmm. Not as sure what his presidency would look like in the “2004 victory” scenario.

But in the latter case, I suppose the race would be closer than IOTL, in large part due to Kerry’s lack of “youthful vibrancy” and lightning-in-a-bottle charisma, both of which helped catapult Obama to victory in OTL 2008? Still, assuming he’s up against John the Red, I think John the Blue would carry it on the back of everything going south on a Republican administration’s watch, if by more “modest” margins than Obama did.

 

[WolfBear]

Hmm. Not as sure what his presidency would look like in the “2004 victory” scenario.

But in the latter case, I suppose the race would be closer than IOTL, in large part due to Kerry’s lack of “youthful vibrancy” and lightning-in-a-bottle charisma, both of which helped catapult Obama to victory in OTL 2008? Still, assuming he’s up against John the Red, I think John the Blue would carry it on the back of everything going south on a Republican administration’s watch, if by more “modest” margins than Obama did.

I wonder if Kerry would attempt an earlier troop surge for Iraq and also make earlier attempts to appeal to Iraq's Sunni Arabs. Maybe also an earlier Afghan troop surge?

As for Kerry, he should win in 2008 due to the Great Recession. His lack of charisma could hurt him, but he could also get some racists to vote for him for economic reasons who were unwilling to vote for a black man in real life.

 

[WolfBear]

'AHC: Make Russian a global lingua franca comparable to English'

 

[Zyobot]

I wonder if Kerry would attempt an earlier troop surge for Iraq and also make earlier attempts to appeal to Iraq's Sunni Arabs. Maybe also an earlier Afghan troop surge?

As for Kerry, he should win in 2008 due to the Great Recession. His lack of charisma could hurt him, but he could also get some racists to vote for him for economic reasons who were unwilling to vote for a black man in real life.

In that case, sounds like a real contrast of fortunes between both scenarios. Kerry's more likely to lose in the former, but well-positioned to win in the latter, despite the "delayed gratification" aspect of having to wait until 2008 for another shot at the White House.

'AHC: Make Russian a global lingua franca comparable to English'

Not a linguist, but I feel like one reason for this is that Russia was more of a continental power that overwhelmingly expanded overland, rather than becoming a transoceanic seafaring power with colonies on multiple continents (such as Great Britain). In that case, I suppose the Russian language is best suited to be a lingua franca in Russia's periphery, as well as whatever "nearby" spots—such as Northern China, West Asia, maybe as far as Central Europe if it's lucky—that it's likely to either conquer, or draw into its sphere of influence. Perhaps this'd be a runoff effect of your "Tsarist Russia liberalizes" scenario, since proper reforms and the lack of communism to retard its potential would make it a greater superpower than the Soviet Union ever was?

 

[WolfBear]

In that case, sounds like a real contrast of fortunes between both scenarios. Kerry's more likely to lose in the former, but well-positioned to win in the latter, despite the "delayed gratification" aspect of having to wait until 2008 for another shot at the White House.



Not a linguist, but I feel like one reason for this is that Russia was more of a continental power that overwhelmingly expanded overland, rather than becoming a transoceanic seafaring power with colonies on multiple continents (such as Great Britain). In that case, I suppose the Russian language is best suited to be a lingua franca in Russia's periphery, as well as whatever "nearby" spots—such as Northern China, West Asia, maybe as far as Central Europe if it's lucky—that it's likely to either conquer, or draw into its sphere of influence. Perhaps this'd be a runoff effect of your "Tsarist Russia liberalizes" scenario, since proper reforms and the lack of communism to retard its potential would make it a greater superpower than the Soviet Union ever was?

Delayed gratification has a precedent: Andrew Jackson in 1828, Richard Nixon in 1968, and Al Gore in 2004 without 9/11.

Yeah, this might be a runoff effect of Tsarist Russian liberalization, though there is also the issue that people who would want to learn Russian would have to learn a brand new alphabet. For instance, here is an alphabet map of Europe in 1901, though the Latin script is divided into Fraktur and Antiqua here. Fraktur is the Latin script but in a Germanized format.

Other than in the Balkans, the Cyrillic script wasn't used anywhere outside of the Russian Empire back in 1901--at least I don't think so. Maybe that's also a part of the reason as to why exactly Russia was willing to fight so hard for Serbia starting from 1914.

 

[Zyobot]

Delayed gratification has a precedent: Andrew Jackson in 1828, Richard Nixon in 1968, and Al Gore in 2004 without 9/11.

Except, unlike the other two, that last one never actually happened.

Otherwise, pretty interesting. Although, I don't suppose Russia could force newly conquered peoples to adopt Cyrillic—and consequently, the Russian language—even if going so far as to explicitly stamp out local tongues and writing systems wouldn't work?