Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

[WolfBear]

Then I'd very much like to see the look on their faces, when shown what their once-hopeless "problem child" achieved in the centuries since.

Not to mention how Britain's own flesh and blood across the Atlantic is set to become the next Great Torchbearer of the West, too.

Anglo supremacy lol! Of course, the Anglos' Germanic cousins haven't done too badly either. Just look at Germany's performance in both World Wars!

Anyway:

'AHC: Have Ukraine acquire independence after WWI while both it and Russia permanently avoid Communist rule and also have Russia permanently keep the parts of Ukraine that are only slightly Ukrainian-majority or Ukrainian-plurality on the map below':

 

[Zyobot]

Anglo supremacy lol!

Don't forget how America stepped into the role of English-speaking hegemonic superpower, once Britain's time in the sun was exhausted. In which case, I can imagine the Romans envying how the exhausted Brits had someone else to pass the torch to.

Of course, the Anglos' Germanic cousins haven't done too badly either. Just look at Germany's performance in both World Wars!

Germany lost them both, though. Sure, it bloodied its enemies considerably before going down, but in no way is that the same as actually, you know... winning.

 

[WolfBear]

Don't forget how America stepped into the role of English-speaking hegemonic superpower, once Britain's time in the sun was exhausted.



Germany lost them both, though. Sure, it bloodied its enemies considerably before going down, but in no way is that the same as actually, you know... winning.

Yes, that was also implied by Anglo supremacy! A lot of Americans are Anglos, after all!

Germany lost both World Wars because it had too many enemies. Had the US stayed neutral in both World Wars, it might have very well won both of them. Had both the US and Britain stayed neutral in both World Wars, Germany would have almost certainly won both of them. The Anglos were the decisive factor in defeating the Germanics in both World Wars, albeit obviously not the only factor!

 

[Earl]

AHC: Have Ukraine acquire independence after WWI while both it and Russia permanently avoid Communist rule and also have Russia permanently keep the parts of Ukraine that are only slightly Ukrainian-majority or Ukrainian-plurality on the map below':

This is fairly easy: Whites win and then promptly fall into a warlord era. when the winner comes back, Ukraine is established and has Polish back up, and slaughters the Russians on the field.

 

[Zyobot]

Yes, that was also implied by Anglo supremacy! A lot of Americans are Anglos, after all!

Quite so.

Germany lost both World Wars because it had too many enemies. Had the US stayed neutral in both World Wars, it might have very well won both of them. Had both the US and Britain stayed neutral in both World Wars, Germany would have almost certainly won both of them. The Anglos were the decisive factor in defeating the Germanics in both World Wars, albeit obviously not the only factor!

Perhaps, but losing for a good reason is still losing. The victors, on the other hand, don't need hypotheticals to illustrate their true potential, because the fact it was actually realized speaks for itself! Romans would much more receptive to proven results, I think, even if AH speculation remains an interesting pastime in its own right.

 

[WolfBear]

This is fairly easy: Whites win and then promptly fall into a warlord era. when the winner comes back, Ukraine is established and has Polish back up, and slaughters the Russians on the field.

But Russia should still get the Donbass, southern Zaporizhia, and the Odessa area!

Quite so.



Perhaps, but losing for a good reason is still losing. The victors, on the other hand, don't need hypotheticals to illustrate their true potential, because the fact it was actually realized speaks for itself! Romans would much more receptive to proven results, I think, even if AH speculation remains an interesting pastime in its own right.

What's quite interesting is that Italians, in spite of being the descendants of Romans, are not exactly known for their superb military strength like their Roman ancestors were.

 

[Zyobot]

What's quite interesting is that Italians, in spite of being the descendants of Romans, are not exactly known for their superb military strength like their Roman ancestors were.

*Pulls out a box of tissues and hands it to a blubbering Julius Caesar.*

But yeah, come to think of it, I don't think Italy ranks very highly on... a lot of key metrics, really. Military strength is one of them, unfortunately, though I don't think modern Italians are "straight-line" descendants of full, "pure-blooded" Romans. The better part of two-thousand years for peoples to migrate and interbreed tends to muddy the waters there, I'd imagine.

 

[Earl]

But Russia should still get the Donbass, southern Zaporizhia, and the Odessa area!

Well, that dosent really make sense due to who exactly Russified the area (hint, he has a pipe and a mustache). Still, I guess, the Russians push in that far, then get beat back and peace out. Cue ethnic cleansing and wallah,there’s the territory you desire

 

[WolfBear]

Well, that dosent really make sense due to who exactly Russified the area (hint, he has a pipe and a mustache). Still, I guess, the Russians push in that far, then get beat back and peace out. Cue ethnic cleansing and wallah,there’s the territory you desire

Those territories were already not that Ukrainian even back in 1897, though.

 

[Ricardolindo]

But Russia should still get the Donbass, southern Zaporizhia, and the Odessa area!



What's quite interesting is that Italians, in spite of being the descendants of Romans, are not exactly known for their superb military strength like their Roman ancestors were.

Those territories were already not that Ukrainian even back in 1897, though.

They were still Ukrainian majority, though, and the rural areas were largely Ukrainian speaking.
In addition, without them, Ukraine would be cut off from the Black Sea, which would be unacceptable for any Ukrainian government.

 

[WolfBear]

They were still Ukrainian majority, though, and the rural areas were largely Ukrainian speaking.
In addition, without them, Ukraine would be cut off from the Black Sea, which would be unacceptable for any Ukrainian government.

Ukraine could still get Black Sea access in Kherson and Mykolayiv.

 

[Ricardolindo]

Ukraine could still get Black Sea access in Kherson and Mykolayiv.

Odessa would then be cut off from the rest of Russia, though.

 

[WolfBear]

Odessa would then be cut off from the rest of Russia, though.

It could be accessed by sea just like a Russian Constantinople could. Or just like East Prussia could by Germans from other parts of Germany in the interwar era.

 

[Zyobot]

'UN Includes Class-Based Murder As Genocide'.

(It didn't IOTL, unfortunately, due to "political considerations" that involved not upsetting the USSR. )

 

[Ricardolindo]

It could be accessed by sea just like a Russian Constantinople could. Or just like East Prussia could by Germans from other parts of Germany in the interwar era.

There is no reason for giving it to Russia, IMO, though.
It's far more important for Ukraine than for Russia.

 

[WolfBear]

'UN Includes Class-Based Murder As Genocide'.

(It didn't IOTL, unfortunately, due to "political considerations" that involved not upsetting the USSR. )

Have this be done after the USSR's collapse in 1991? And have the Tiananmen protest movement in China in 1989 actually succeed?

There is no reason for giving it to Russia, IMO, though.
It's far more important for Ukraine than for Russia.

What about an independent Odessa city-state?

 

[Zyobot]

Have this be done after the USSR's collapse in 1991? And have the Tiananmen protest movement in China in 1989 actually succeed?

I guess, if newborn Russia also held a Truth and Reconciliation Commission on behalf of communism’s victims or something. (Honestly, that’s a process lots of communist countries could use, though I doubt there’s nearly enough will or wherewithal for it right now.)

Still, I was hoping classicide would be counted as genocide during the original drafting process, though with the USSR on the UN Security Council, I suppose that wasn’t too realistic. Sure, Stalin had his own record of ethnic persecutions to his name, but given that Hitler’s atrocities outshined his own and what a good “distraction” they made, it makes sense he’d have been more willing to agree on including ethnically, racially, and religiously motivated mass murder as genocide.

 

[Zyobot]

‘Hendrik Verwoerd Successfully Assassinated On April 9th, 1960’.

Because apparently, this first attempt where he was shot at point-blank range twice didn’t work IOTL, and he had six more years before the second one—in which he was taken out via a Julius Caesar-esque stabbing spree—actually succeeded.

 

[Atarlost]

I guess, if newborn Russia also held a Truth and Reconciliation Commission on behalf of communism’s victims or something. (Honestly, that’s a process lots of communist countries could use, though I doubt there’s nearly enough will or wherewithal for it right now.)

Still, I was hoping classicide would be counted as genocide during the original drafting process, though with the USSR on the UN Security Council, I suppose that wasn’t too realistic. Sure, Stalin had his own record of ethnic persecutions to his name, but given that Hitler’s atrocities outshined his own and what a good “distraction” they made, it makes sense he’d have been more willing to agree on including ethnically, racially, and religiously motivated mass murder as genocide.

If the Normandy pocket breakout succeeds Rommel winds up the one in a pocket. France does not surrender and the BEF and northern French army retain their hardware allowing them to immediately undertake offensive operations while Germany is out a lot of its mobile army. Italy likely reconsiders its life choices and reprises its role in WWI. In this scenario there's no need to coddle Stalin and the UN can be formed as a Western Europe and China club.

 

[ATP]

If the Normandy pocket breakout succeeds Rommel winds up the one in a pocket. France does not surrender and the BEF and northern French army retain their hardware allowing them to immediately undertake offensive operations while Germany is out a lot of its mobile army. Italy likely reconsiders its life choices and reprises its role in WWI. In this scenario there's no need to coddle Stalin and the UN can be formed as a Western Europe and China club.

Or if France attacked for real in 1939.
There is good book about that - Jon Kimche,"The unfought battle".In commie times it was published with additional comments from some polish commie how great soviet union was.But - at least they published book.
And,since his times we knew that sralin waited with his attack on Poland till France decided to not attack,we could be sure,that soviets would not start anything.