Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
I don't know exactly where I first read about this. However a brief search on the Internet resulted in this article, as well as this and this. I wish I could find more "authoritative" sources, but these seem sufficient.

Thanks, man.

Was able to take a quick look at the Shrek article, and cracked a grin at where the phrase "Get Shreked!" originated. Clearly, it means something quite "different" nowadays! :LOL:

I figured. At any rate, though, there's nothing wrong with speculation on a possible path for Dreamworks. :)

Agreed with your other points.

Sure thing.

Actually, you bringing up DreamWorks makes me wonder what kind of movie lineup they'd have in place IATL. You mentioned Madagascar as an option, so assuming no Shrek and (more dubiously) assuming that they at least had the "scaffolding" for it in place before the POD kicked in, I wonder if they might go ahead with Madagascar a few years earlier here to remain afloat? :unsure:
 

Sergeant Foley

Well-known member
Thanks, man.

Was able to take a quick look at the Shrek article, and cracked a grin at where the phrase "Get Shreked!" originated. Clearly, it means something quite "different" nowadays! :LOL:



Sure thing.

Actually, you bringing up DreamWorks makes me wonder what kind of movie lineup they'd have in place IATL. You mentioned Madagascar as an option, so assuming no Shrek and (more dubiously) assuming that they at least had the "scaffolding" for it in place before the POD kicked in, I wonder if they might go ahead with Madagascar a few years earlier here to remain afloat? :unsure:
The ramifications following the shocking assassination of Pope John Paul II on 13 May 1981.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Japan didn't need conquests OTL in China. Its just that the predominant military culture in control thought they did. That's unlikely to change easily without massive changes in Japanese culture of the time. OTL that was done by the crushing defeat in WWII.
Militarist take power,becouse peace faction get humilitated by USA when they made them widraw from Siberia and cut down their fleet.
But,the same militarist faction who would defeat soviets in 1930 and take Siberia would not need to conqer anything more.
And USA could not provoke them to war using embargo,like in OTL.

We would have weaker soviets,with their crimes showed to entire world.
How would it change History? If Sralin survive loosing Siberia,then notching change.If other soviet take power,notching change.But,if we get cyvil war and fall of soviets....
 

Sergeant Foley

Well-known member
Nice non-sequitur, LOL.

More seriously, though, really something how John Paul II escaped assassination so many times IOTL. Even more surprising is how his would've-been killer converted in 2007, if the Wiki page is worth anything. 🧐
It's strongly likely I will be working on an upcoming scoop on the assassination of Pope John Paul II in either Chapter 9 or 10 of the American Republic timeline 😎
 

CastilloVerde

Active member
Thanks, man.

Was able to take a quick look at the Shrek article, and cracked a grin at where the phrase "Get Shreked!" originated. Clearly, it means something quite "different" nowadays! :LOL:
:cool:
Sure thing.

Actually, you bringing up DreamWorks makes me wonder what kind of movie lineup they'd have in place IATL. You mentioned Madagascar as an option, so assuming no Shrek and (more dubiously) assuming that they at least had the "scaffolding" for it in place before the POD kicked in, I wonder if they might go ahead with Madagascar a few years earlier here to remain afloat? :unsure:
I think that without Shrek, DreamWorks would probably be less inclined to move away from the 2D animation style altogether. I still expect a shift towards computer animated 3D styles, but the lack of Shrek would make this a far more gradual transition. Expect more movies like The Road to El Dorado or Sinbad which was what DreamWorks were producing at this time.

However none of these movies approached Shrek in success so there would likely be some problems for the company if these films were not succeeding well. I suppose something like Madagascar would be created to break the cycle, that is, a 3D animated film with talking animals simply to compete with Disney/Pixar films at the time, but I don't expect DreamWorks to be that successful. Remember Shark Tale, the Dreamworks response to Finding Nemo? Nowhere near as successful.

Now if Dreamworks would release something like Kung Fu Panda earlier, that should be good. The question is, was DreamWorks able to release something like that without Shrek? I really don't know.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
I take it that they lost the debate on policy ... hopefully without being "suicided" or something like that as a result ...

In 1910-20 Manchuria was still relatively empty. Empty as in "10M people on 1M km2".

This approach soon lost favour, yes. But for those involved, it was mostly a case of just getting moved by the current into the prevailing direction. There was no suiciding involved. We're not talking about the Clintons here!

And yes, Manchuria was empty as anything, so the Japanese could probably have grabbed it up without actually spoiling its reasonably good relations with ATL Nationalist China. With Korea and Taiwan also in the back pocket, Japan could have done very well for itself. By siding against Russia, further gains in the Russian Far East wouldn't be out of the question either, and that wouldn't create a conflict with China.

At the same time, as I alluded to, Japan entertained the notion of becoming the benefector of the Philippine nationalists. This went belly-up because the USA betrayed the Philippines and occupied the place. Arguably, that's the POD here! I think that when that situation developed as it did, Japan realised that becoming the 'patron' of indepencence movements in the region would be a non-starter. If the USA decides to just liberate the Philippines and then withdraw, then Japan probably steps in (and probably with an invitation!) -- so that changes things. They can then plausibly seek to emulate their experiences in the Philippines in China, and maybe even apply some lessons of this development in Korea...

Perhaps a bit utopian. But I don't believe Japan was fated to become quite as abusive as it ended up being.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Militarist take power,becouse peace faction get humilitated by USA when they made them widraw from Siberia and cut down their fleet.
But,the same militarist faction who would defeat soviets in 1930 and take Siberia would not need to conqer anything more.
And USA could not provoke them to war using embargo,like in OTL.

We would have weaker soviets,with their crimes showed to entire world.
How would it change History? If Sralin survive loosing Siberia,then notching change.If other soviet take power,notching change.But,if we get cyvil war and fall of soviets....

You missed my point. I mentioned that OTL Japan didn't need to [try to] conquer China. In your proposed ATL where Japan holds a good chunk of eastern Siberia - they wouldn't get the western bit and had no real interest in it as far as I'm aware - the same would apply. They are still likely to attack China because its in the perceived interests of the army and some other elements [ big business, religious/racial extremists and the like] although they might be weaker here because of the drain of holding E Siberia.

Its unlikely that knowing some more details of communist brutality would change a lot. Other than unfortunately possibly make fascism even more popular in Europe. :( Russia - let alone E Siberia - was "a far away land of which we know little [and care even less] to a western establishment and general population desiring peace and stability and horrified by the slaughter of WWII. There was no appetite for intervention as shown by the resistance in the west to the small scale interventions during the Russian civil war.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Rome and Carthage would sooner or later come into conflict, especially once Rome could interfere in Carthage's sphere of influence.

The latest this could be prevented is for Pyrrhos to decisively win the war named after him, allowing his Epirote kingdom a permanent sphere of influence in Magna Graecia. If Magna Graecia never comes under roman domination, then Rome could not effectively contest Carthage in Sicily, preventing the Punic Wars. The hard part is allowing Epirus to survive in this manner.

Even if Epeiros gets utterly shafted even just a few years later, it really doesn't matter-- so long as Pyrrhos fucks Rome over thoroughly enough. If Rome is crushed and left weak, then then incoming Celtic invasions of Italy will mess up all of Rome's future ambitions. In fact, I think Italy is then slated to become "Italo-Celtic", just as Iberia became "Celtiberian".

Rome would just be a minor power controlling Latium, surrounded by other minor powers of the same sort, all with various degrees of Celtic admixture.

Since Megale Hellas would now be re-established as a prominent base of power, the loss of Pyrrhos later on doesn't hurt the region at all. In fact, they'll thank him for ridding them of pesky Romans and bothersome Carthaginians, and then thank him for buggering off right quick.

The result, I expect, is that Carthage ends up in a rivalry with the Greeks, and will probably enlist the Northern Italians / Italo-Celts (encluding Rome) as allies in this struggle.


...Naturally, your "Samnite" PODs would work just as well, if not better, but I wanted to point out that a "Pyrrhic" POD is really quite workable. I used it in a never-finished TL on this very topic, years ago. (And yes, it involved an ascendant Macedon.)
 

Atarlost

Well-known member
However none of these movies approached Shrek in success so there would likely be some problems for the company if these films were not succeeding well. I suppose something like Madagascar would be created to break the cycle, that is, a 3D animated film with talking animals simply to compete with Disney/Pixar films at the time, but I don't expect DreamWorks to be that successful. Remember Shark Tale, the Dreamworks response to Finding Nemo? Nowhere near as successful.

I suspect that the total demand for animated movies is relatively inelastic with regards to quality since they're primarily purchased by adults for kids. The parents are going to have to sit through them for some viewings so quality does impact which are chosen, but if there is no Shreck I'd expect something else to take up most of the slack including whatever Dreamworks did instead of Schreck.

So, according to Wikipedia Schreck competed with Atlantis: The Lost Empire, Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius, Marco Polo: Return to Xanadu, Monsters Inc., Mutant Aliens, Recess: Schools Out, and The Trumpet of the Swan. That's traditional or CGI no live action theatrical releases in the US. Pokemon 3 showing up in the top 10 highest grossing animated films list but not in the animated films released in 2001 list suggests that delayed English dubs of Japanese films aren't showing up so those are also competition if they had theatrical releases in the US.

The only ones I've even heard of are Monsters Inc., Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius, and Pokemon 3. This suggests to me that Disney's wounds were self inflicted. Nickelodeon did a better job of making me aware their theatrical movie existed than Disney did for either of its two. Disney had better marketing for their DTV Lady and the Tramp sequel which I at least remember walking past in a supermarket checkout line. If Dreamworks had released something else instead it probably wouldn't have bombed because the US competition for parents that take their kids to at least two films a year was basically nil.

Actually, It's possible that the Final Fantasy film might benefit. Absent Schrek it would have been the fifth grossing animated film of 2001 and one of those was not competing in the US market. It's a bit more adult targeted, but some of Schreck's audience was the animation geek demographic that it would only be competing with Monsters Inc. for. If a quarter of Schreck's gross receipts had gone to the Final Fantasy film instead it would have made money. That would have saved Square Pictures. Even getting closer to breaking even might have saved Square Pictures.
 

Buba

A total creep
A little correction ion my part - c.1910 Manchuria had 20M, not 10M people. Of which some 15M were Han Chinese. Quite a few those Chinese were not "native" but guest workers from Shantung.
Hence the Chinese spoken in Manchuria today is often closer to that of Shantung than to Hobei/Peking dialects.
 

ATP

Well-known member
You missed my point. I mentioned that OTL Japan didn't need to [try to] conquer China. In your proposed ATL where Japan holds a good chunk of eastern Siberia - they wouldn't get the western bit and had no real interest in it as far as I'm aware - the same would apply. They are still likely to attack China because its in the perceived interests of the army and some other elements [ big business, religious/racial extremists and the like] although they might be weaker here because of the drain of holding E Siberia.

Its unlikely that knowing some more details of communist brutality would change a lot. Other than unfortunately possibly make fascism even more popular in Europe. :( Russia - let alone E Siberia - was "a far away land of which we know little [and care even less] to a western establishment and general population desiring peace and stability and horrified by the slaughter of WWII. There was no appetite for intervention as shown by the resistance in the west to the small scale interventions during the Russian civil war.
You answered yourself.With Siberia taken,Army would not feel need to prove anything.
But,you are right about commie crimes.Nobody would care,except Japan.

But,it still change WW2.Japan would not get embargo,and not start war becouse of it.
USA would find pretext to fight Hitler and help soviets there,and still gave half of Europe to Sralin.
But,after the war,we would have 3 powers,not 2 as in OTL.
And now powerfull Japan.Possible taking part of Africa,like China now.

What China would do in this TL - becoming rich,i think.No commie states in Asia.
Maybe some China-Japan war after soviet fall?
I think not - both sides would be too practical for that.
 

TheRomanSlayer

Kayabangan, Dugo, at Dangal
‘PC: Performance and Reliability of a Japanese-backed “Russian Liberation Army”, or the Asano Detachment becoming a real military’

IOTL, there were actual Russians who enlisted in the Imperial Manchukuo Army and were in a unit called the Asano Detachment. However, they were mainly used as reconnaissance units, and didn’t do much. In a larger Soviet-Japanese border clash as a result of additional purges, would the Red Army officers that are marked for death be more tempted to defect to the Japanese Empire? Unlike the Germans, the Japanese might actually try to treat the Red Army defectors a bit more decently. How would a larger version of the Asano Detachment, or what would be the Japanese backed “Russian Liberation Army”, perform against the Red Army, should Japan enter the war against the Soviet Union?
 

stevep

Well-known member
‘PC: Performance and Reliability of a Japanese-backed “Russian Liberation Army”, or the Asano Detachment becoming a real military’

IOTL, there were actual Russians who enlisted in the Imperial Manchukuo Army and were in a unit called the Asano Detachment. However, they were mainly used as reconnaissance units, and didn’t do much. In a larger Soviet-Japanese border clash as a result of additional purges, would the Red Army officers that are marked for death be more tempted to defect to the Japanese Empire? Unlike the Germans, the Japanese might actually try to treat the Red Army defectors a bit more decently. How would a larger version of the Asano Detachment, or what would be the Japanese backed “Russian Liberation Army”, perform against the Red Army, should Japan enter the war against the Soviet Union?

IIRC there were a lot of white refugees that ended up in Manchuria and related areas after the Russian civil war so, once its clear the whites were losing I could see a lot of them being willing to work alongside the Japanese to rescue something. Especially since Japan was not - at least not clearly - as rabidly racist as it became later.

Do recall on another site an argument that if Japan hadn't withdrawn from eastern Siberia it could have held a defensive position a bit east of Lake Baikal I think it was. There's only one realistic path through a range of mountains and Japan could use the Amur river for much of the way to supply its defensive position while the Soviets would have quite a haul from their centres of population and production in European USSR. - This was on a naval site and the argument was if the WNT fell through one of the results was that Japan would feel more inclined to hold on in this region rather than withdrawing under pressure from the US.

The big question is if this means that Japan avoids its almost deranged militarism in the 1930s and 40s? If it did and China is willing to concede Japanese domination of Manchuria - which in the longer term at least I strongly suspect it wouldn't - then you might avoid the 2nd Sino-Japanese war. On the other hand while E Siberia is vast and with advanced enough technology there is a lot of valuable resources there its an howling wilderness overall so not suitable for a lot of surplus population, which was a desire for many in the Japanese government.

Plus in the longer term how does the balance between European Russians and Japanese settlers in the region change?
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
'AHC: Pacific Carthage'.

As in, a fearsome mercantile power in the Asia-Pacific that establishes a large trade empire. Japan's the obvious candidate, but as I understand it, they never developed much of a commercial streak until the US came in and Westernized it after World War II, so...
A Majapahit that avoids its historical decline, perhaps? They were already the grandest, wealthiest and most powerful of the Southeast Asian thalassocracies (following in the footsteps of Srivijaya & Singhasari from centuries before) but happened to go into a death spiral of divisions & succession crises right before the Europeans arrived in the region, making them easy prey for the newly-established Muslim sultanate of Demak. None of its successors even come close to its size, riches or lasting influence - Gajah Mada, Majapahit's most famous prime minister, is still considered a national hero in modern Indonesia and you bet he's way better-remembered and has way more places named after him than even the competent Islamic monarchs from succeeding centuries, such as Sultan Agung of Mataram. (Helps that Majapahit's influence was spread out all over the Indonesian archipelago, while the reach of the Muslim successor kingdoms never really extended beyond Java)

Have the 15th century be much less of a trainwreck for Majapahit, then if they can survive contact with the Portuguese/Spanish/English/Dutch while also absorbing useful lessons from and cultivating at least periodically friendly relations with the newcomers (and also probably centralize to a greater degree out of necessity, lest the Europeans effortlessly play divide-and-conquer with their various subjects - politically Majapahit had been set up along the traditional Indic mandala model so that most of its empire were actually autonomous vassal kingdoms still ruled by their native dynasties which just happened to be under Majapahit suzerainty), they should be superbly positioned to become the hegemon of SE Asia. Majapahit's survival would also hugely alter Indonesia's religious trajectory by keeping the Hindus (of which Majapahit itself was one) & Buddhists in ascendancy over Islam.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
'AHC: Pacific Carthage'.

As in, a fearsome mercantile power in the Asia-Pacific that establishes a large trade empire. Japan's the obvious candidate, but as I understand it, they never developed much of a commercial streak until the US came in and Westernized it after World War II, so...

In this context, I fear that Japan makes for a poor candidate. I know that I've proliferated the notion that Japan played the part of "Carthage" to America's "Rome" in World War II (bt let's not get into that), yet that comparison relies on the geopolitical role involved. It does not suggest that Japanese culture is anything like Carthaginian culture.

You'd have to look in South-East Asia, for sure. Traditionally, Southern China was more oriented towards the sea. (Most of the crewmen on Zheng He's voyages were, in fact, Cantonese.) This goes way back. You may also note that Chu was the most laissez-faire of the warring states, and that these attitudes were only consolidated when they absorbed the Yue in the far South. (Yue is a cognate of Viet, by the way-- directly related to the people of Vietnam.) Qin rule was obviously not laissez-faire, but the Han dynasty (which was from Chu) again embraced the hands-off mentality familiar to Taoism of the period. (However, the drive to strengthen the imperial identity of China forbade trade ventures further afield; consolidation was the greater priority.)

For this reason, I find one excellent POD for an East Asia trade empire in a different conclusion of the warring states period. Specifically: one where the unification fails. This relies on Qin being destroyed, and Chu consolidating the South. Subsequently or concurrently, one of the Northern rivals must unite the North, with a long-term stalemate being the result. The resulting realm of Chu could easily expand further South. First, by dedicated all its efforts into absorbing all of Vietnam. But thereafter, greater parts of Indo-China, as well as Taiwan, the Philippines, Indonesia... possibly even Oceania. This would by definition by an ocean-facing trade empire, able to do excellent business with the (equally trade-oriented!) mercantile realms of South India.

(You'll note that this is the scenario I propose for A Thousand Sunlit Years.)

If you seek a later POD, anything that ends up fracturing China is a potential springboard. The above POD is excellent because it aborts the influences of Legalism and Confucianism to a great degree. But later PODs can definitely work. There were also various periods of Chinese mercantile diaspora in OTL. After all, when Zheng He reached such places as Malacca, he found a thriving Chinese community there! These phases were, as far as I can tell, always instigated when China was fractured and/or invaded from the North. This typically created periods wherein the South of China was independent and self-directed, and also facing bitter enemies to the North. Every time, they reacted by turning towards the sea and instigating trade. This tells me that if you want a Chinese trade empire, South China is to be the cradle for it.

Alternative options include OTL's mercantile empires in Indonesia. Although, as we've discussed in conversation, these were typically somewhat 'brittle', and often one really bad ruler away from getting screwed over by the competition. Said competition was often the aformentioned merchant-princes of Tamilakam. It didn't help the Indonesians that they're much closer to Southern India than a Southern Chinese trade empire would be. (The outcome is that their heartland could be attacked directly.)
 

Buba

A total creep
'AHC: Pacific Carthage'.
To add to what has been already mentioned - the Cham kingdom of what is today south Viet-nam. Or Mallaca. Johor?
But I have a soft spot for Chinese fleeing Mongol conquest - or simply industrious expats - creating a mercantile state on Luzon, Borneo or Taiwan in XIIIth century or so. It may "malayify" to large extent for an interesting Chinese-Hindu cultural mix.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
‘PC: Performance and Reliability of a Japanese-backed “Russian Liberation Army”, or the Asano Detachment becoming a real military’

IOTL, there were actual Russians who enlisted in the Imperial Manchukuo Army and were in a unit called the Asano Detachment. However, they were mainly used as reconnaissance units, and didn’t do much. In a larger Soviet-Japanese border clash as a result of additional purges, would the Red Army officers that are marked for death be more tempted to defect to the Japanese Empire? Unlike the Germans, the Japanese might actually try to treat the Red Army defectors a bit more decently. How would a larger version of the Asano Detachment, or what would be the Japanese backed “Russian Liberation Army”, perform against the Red Army, should Japan enter the war against the Soviet Union?
Yes,it would work.Till at least 1933 soviets do not have serious forces there.
And Japan with Siberia would have oil,and probably not attack China.
Different WW2,with USA fighting only germans,and after it end we would have 3 world superpowers,not one.
Normal China,too.

'AHC: Pacific Carthage'.

As in, a fearsome mercantile power in the Asia-Pacific that establishes a large trade empire. Japan's the obvious candidate, but as I understand it, they never developed much of a commercial streak until the US came in and Westernized it after World War II, so...
Good idea,but Japan is poor candidate as state.
But,if you use their merchants...i read some AH long ago about japaneese merchant leaving Japan after Tokugawa closed Japan,and taking Pacyfic islands,Indonesia,Australia and part of North America.
Could worked.

A Majapahit that avoids its historical decline, perhaps? They were already the grandest, wealthiest and most powerful of the Southeast Asian thalassocracies (following in the footsteps of Srivijaya & Singhasari from centuries before) but happened to go into a death spiral of divisions & succession crises right before the Europeans arrived in the region, making them easy prey for the newly-established Muslim sultanate of Demak. None of its successors even come close to its size, riches or lasting influence - Gajah Mada, Majapahit's most famous prime minister, is still considered a national hero in modern Indonesia and you bet he's way better-remembered and has way more places named after him than even the competent Islamic monarchs from succeeding centuries, such as Sultan Agung of Mataram. (Helps that Majapahit's influence was spread out all over the Indonesian archipelago, while the reach of the Muslim successor kingdoms never really extended beyond Java)

Have the 15th century be much less of a trainwreck for Majapahit, then if they can survive contact with the Portuguese/Spanish/English/Dutch while also absorbing useful lessons from and cultivating at least periodically friendly relations with the newcomers (and also probably centralize to a greater degree out of necessity, lest the Europeans effortlessly play divide-and-conquer with their various subjects - politically Majapahit had been set up along the traditional Indic mandala model so that most of its empire were actually autonomous vassal kingdoms still ruled by their native dynasties which just happened to be under Majapahit suzerainty), they should be superbly positioned to become the hegemon of SE Asia. Majapahit's survival would also hugely alter Indonesia's religious trajectory by keeping the Hindus (of which Majapahit itself was one) & Buddhists in ascendancy over Islam.
Good idea,they have their chance and fucked it.

To add to what has been already mentioned - the Cham kingdom of what is today south Viet-nam. Or Mallaca. Johor?
But I have a soft spot for Chinese fleeing Mongol conquest - or simply industrious expats - creating a mercantile state on Luzon, Borneo or Taiwan in XIIIth century or so. It may "malayify" to large extent for an interesting Chinese-Hindu cultural mix.

Or Tang dynasty in Exile.They could known Australia,but even if not,it is still interesting.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
‘Strange ATL Religions’.

In fairness, we had some real aberrations IOTL, such as Christianity being met with "WTF?!" reactions from Jews and Romans at first — only to become the greatest success story in the history of religion, two-thousand years and counting.

Nonetheless, the question still stands, so any ATL mythologies or religious beliefs you can come up with that’d make OTL observers blink are what I’m looking for here. After all, OTL proved it was possible for something like Christianity to arise, so who knows what else could've emerged that OTL audiences couldn't wrap their heads around?
 

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