Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

[ATP]

1956 - Eisenhower, sensing weakness in USSR after XX Congress, unrest in Poland and revolt in Hungary, goes WWIII.
Starts by nuking Kremlin in early November during parade to commemorate the Day that will live in Infamy, i.e. the October Revolution. This kills the entire top leadership as on that day you either watch the parade from top of Lenin's Tomb, or you are not in the government.
How do things go?

USA win,soviet lost,not able to harm USA,and even english cities.
Much better for Poland.And basically everybody except soviets party members and those workers,who die in atomic blasts.

The USSR does have about 500 nukes at that point. The USA has roughly nine times that number, but still-- 500 nukes can do very nasty things, even if you kill their whole government in a decapitation strike. I have no doubt that the relevant commanders have standing orders to throw all the atomic bombs they have at the West, in such an event.

I don't know what either side's capabilities are when it comes to delivery. Basic estimate is that the USA is able to completely crush the USSR with the liberal application of nukes (basically: what LeMay wanted in OTL becomes a reality here). But before its final fiery end, the USSR will reduce quite a few European cities to ash.

Ultimately, I doubt the premise. I don't think Eisenhower would go for this, because he'd understand the cost of it all too well.



(...if you want an "early" scenario where the USA would actually consider it, then you need to go earlier, and run with a premise where things really escalate over the Berlin blockade-- and the Soviets shoot down the airlift planes. That brings everything to a nadir, and then the Korean War breaks out and MacArthur gets his way. The USSR and China go ape-shit over it, and the result is all-out nuclear war in 1950. With 350 American nukes versus... all of 12 Russian ones.)

Both sides used bombers - but americans had jet bombers escoeted by fighters,when soviets had B.29 copies /Tu4/

who do not have fighters which could escort them to England.
So,few german and french cities could die,but that would be all.

1950 - even better.

 

[Buba]

Saw an 2010 Eastern USA overwrites 1950 Eastern USA thread on Alt-Hist.
This is a SIMPLE ISOT so only what was in 2010 EUSA gets sent across time.

Leaving aside economics etc. - how much military did 1950 WESTERN USA have, and how much 2010 Eastern USA did?
As to the latter - I'm fairly sure that the three light divisions, a Marine Division (?) and AF. What else? What about nukes? Only tacticals for AF? Any for Army? Navy?
Let us leave Navy ships out of it for a moment - although "do 2010 Naval bases have nukes for ships" contines pertinanent.

ADDED LATER:
This happens on 1.I.1950

 

[ATP]

Saw an 2010 Eastern USA overwrites 1950 Eastern USA thread on Alt-Hist.
This is a SIMPLE ISOT so only what was in 2010 EUSA gets sent across time.

Leaving aside economics etc. - how much military did 1950 WESTERN USA have, and how much 2010 Eastern USA did?
As to the latter - I'm fairly sure that the three light divisions, a Marine Division (?) and AF. What else? What about nukes? Only tacticals for AF? Any for Army? Navy?
Let us leave Navy ships out of it for a moment - although "do 2010 Naval bases have nukes for ships" contines pertinanent.

2010 Eastern USA mean Obama.Western 1950 would rebel,and Obama would gave everytching to sralin.
Why not made it 2018?

 

[Buba]

Why not made it 2018?

Comedy/drama value of POTUS Obama.
So, about those EUSA and WUSA military forces in 1950 ...

 

[ATP]

Comedy/drama value of POTUS Obama.
So, about those EUSA and WUSA military forces in 1950 ...

Before Korean war,american Army was rather small.They have problems with find tanks fo face korean T.34.85/all they had in Japan was M24/

But,you created two worlds here:
1.1950 with eastern USA from 2010 - i fear,that Democrats here would rather invade rest of USA,then liberate Europe from sralin.
2. 2010 with eastern USA from 1950 - i fear cyvil war here,becoue 2010 democrats would not want Truman.Both Putin and China would use that to their advantage.

 

[Zyobot]

'ASB Scenario: Actual Flat Earth'.

 

[Skallagrim]

'ASB Scenario: Actual Flat Earth'.

Ignoring the many complications for the moment:


-- Any part of a disk's surface would always receive the same amount of sunlight as any other part. Any seasonal cycle would have to be purely based on a supposed eccentricity in the disk's orbit around the Sun, and even then, all places on the surface would experience the same season at the same time.

-- There would be no climate zones, as such: no tropics getting more sunlight and poles getting less sunlight. It would all average out. Earth would be a single-climate world.

-- Lack of a coriolis effect would dramatically alter weather patterns, too, in addition to the above.

-- There would be no time zones. The Sun would always go up and down at the exact same time for everyone on the surface of the disk.

-- We'd also see the same stars from all places on the surface (rather than seeing different constellations, depending on where we are on the globe's surface in OTL). All the surface always faces the same direction at any given point.

-- The orbit of the Moon would be impossible around a disk, so we'd have no Moon and no lunar tides.

-- Satellites would not be possible, as they would not be able to orbit.

-- Depending on the actual configuration of the "world map", the distances between certain places are going to change considerably.

-- On a clear day, an observer will be able to see things that are hidden by the Earth's curvature in OTL.


Anything like OTL history would be impossible, and in fact evolution would be very different from the outset due to the totally different conditions (uni-climate, no moon...), meaning there would never be humans at all. The disk would be completely alien.

Then there's the issue of gravity, which really must be addressed. A disk whose surface roughly equals the surface of the globe would not have a surface gravity even close to that of Earth. The disk would have to be a few thousand km thick, in order to get the mass and volume right. So it's more of a cylinder, really. And even then, gravity would still be messed up, since things would gravitate to the centre of the disk. Things would 'fall' a bit, uh... sideways. Worse, though: the atmosphere would pile up near the centre of the surface, where it would be unbreathably thick, whereas further 'out', towards the rim, you'd have no atmosphere at all.

I expect you could solve or at least ameliorate all this by spinning the disk/cylinder. But the speed difference between the centre and the rim is going to have... interesting consequences. I think we've just created "the world of deadly hyper-storms that never stop".

Let's keep the planet spherical, yes? It's a good shape. It works.

 

[Zyobot]

*Big ol' snip.*

Flat Earthers reacting to ATL, colorized:

 

[Blasterbot]

So here is a hilarious video where a guy let his audience vote to decide the Treaties that end WW1.



to the surprise of nobody Greece gets Constantinople back. most of it would be a shit show. but that amuses me.

 

[Zyobot]

Sorry if this is repetitive, but: 'Earth With A Ring System'.

Found an interesting video on that, so long as we're posting those here:

 

[Blasterbot]

As long as it still is AH and the goal is to generate discussion or flesh out an idea I don't see why a video couldn't serve as a prompt. if a mod or others dislike it then we can not post anymore vids. Your vid doesn't talk as much about history as science but it would be an interesting idea.

 

[Zyobot]

As long as it still is AH and the goal is to generate discussion or flesh out an idea I don't see why a video couldn't serve as a prompt. if a mod or others dislike it then we can not post anymore vids. Your vid doesn't talk as much about history as science but it would be an interesting idea.

Definitely more "science-oriented", yeah.

It still touched upon how ATL human cultures and their understanding of the universe might develop, though, which lets loose a whole school of pterodactyl-sized butterflies that'd probably render ATL history unrecognizable. Heck, there's a chance humans might not even emerge IATL, either, courtesy of how the POD would take place billions of years earlier than when humans first arrived on the scene.

 

[Blasterbot]

I think for the purposes of making the setting work you would kinda hand wave things a bit at least to the pre bronze age. set up how differing cultures view the darker moon and ring, how it influences the developing sciences. you would still have civilizations developing in similar places that are fertile flood plains. playing on how those differing cultures interact compared to the OTL. show that in spite of some advanced maths and further tech advancement that people's culture matters. show how much harder actually getting to space is.

there is a fertile ground for ideas there and the idea of ancient Rome and China engaging in competition while still acting like Rome and China but with some tech behind them would be fun.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Ignoring the many complications for the moment:


-- Any part of a disk's surface would always receive the same amount of sunlight as any other part. Any seasonal cycle would have to be purely based on a supposed eccentricity in the disk's orbit around the Sun, and even then, all places on the surface would experience the same season at the same time.

-- There would be no climate zones, as such: no tropics getting more sunlight and poles getting less sunlight. It would all average out. Earth would be a single-climate world.

-- Lack of a coriolis effect would dramatically alter weather patterns, too, in addition to the above.

-- There would be no time zones. The Sun would always go up and down at the exact same time for everyone on the surface of the disk.

-- We'd also see the same stars from all places on the surface (rather than seeing different constellations, depending on where we are on the globe's surface in OTL). All the surface always faces the same direction at any given point.

-- The orbit of the Moon would be impossible around a disk, so we'd have no Moon and no lunar tides.

-- Satellites would not be possible, as they would not be able to orbit.

-- Depending on the actual configuration of the "world map", the distances between certain places are going to change considerably.

-- On a clear day, an observer will be able to see things that are hidden by the Earth's curvature in OTL.


Anything like OTL history would be impossible, and in fact evolution would be very different from the outset due to the totally different conditions (uni-climate, no moon...), meaning there would never be humans at all. The disk would be completely alien.

Then there's the issue of gravity, which really must be addressed. A disk whose surface roughly equals the surface of the globe would not have a surface gravity even close to that of Earth. The disk would have to be a few thousand km thick, in order to get the mass and volume right. So it's more of a cylinder, really. And even then, gravity would still be messed up, since things would gravitate to the centre of the disk. Things would 'fall' a bit, uh... sideways. Worse, though: the atmosphere would pile up near the centre of the surface, where it would be unbreathably thick, whereas further 'out', towards the rim, you'd have no atmosphere at all.

I expect you could solve or at least ameliorate all this by spinning the disk/cylinder. But the speed difference between the centre and the rim is going to have... interesting consequences. I think we've just created "the world of deadly hyper-storms that never stop".

Let's keep the planet spherical, yes? It's a good shape. It works.

Clearly, we need to go beyond mere Flat Earth and embrace the Great Ice Ball Earth Theory.

 

[lordhen]

'ASB Scenario: Actual Flat Earth'.

Well then on this Flat Earth you will have people think the Earth is round instead of flat.

 

[Zyobot]

Well then on this Flat Earth you will have people think the Earth is round instead of flat.

Might need a second helping of ASB hand-waving there, friend.

As @Skallagrim explained, existing conditions would be too foreign for anything like humans to evolve. Unless ASB lends a butterfly net to ensure humanity comes into existence, we won't be getting anyone with the brainpower (though obviously, lack of smarts) to cook up wacky silliness like that.

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

PC: Enduring Old Great Bulgaria, Scattered Khazaria

The advent of the Khazars had been a major factor in the scattering of the Bulgar tribes, with Kotrag and his followers ending up on the Volga, and Asparukh and his tribe ending up on the Danube, eventually forming the Bulgaria that we know as it is today.

Would different circumstances have allowed Old Great Bulgaria to thrive while the Khazars would end up scattered instead?

 

[Buba]

I'd guess a Greater Volga Bulgaria (or GVB for short) is equally possible as there being two Bulgarias of OTL.
Although it is likely that GVB will get smashed by another wave of Turks from the east - Pechengs? Kipchaks (also known os Kumans or Polovtsy)? Seldjuks? Or maybe they survive until the Mongols?

The impact of no Asparukh and Freinds on the Danube is quite interesting
A GVB will affect - besides Balkans and neighbourhood - Central Asia and the Caucasus. With potential ramifications for the Middle East (Seldjuks!!!!11) and maybe even India.

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

I'd guess a Greater Volga Bulgaria (or GVB for short) is equally possible as there being two Bulgarias of OTL.
Although it is likely that GVB will get smashed by another wave of Turks from the east - Pechengs? Kipchaks (also known os Kumans or Polovtsy)? Seldjuks? Or maybe they survive until the Mongols?

The impact of no Asparukh and Freinds on the Danube is quite interesting
A GVB will affect - besides Balkans and neighbourhood - Central Asia and the Caucasus. With potential ramifications for the Middle East (Seldjuks!!!!11) and maybe even India.

Old Great Bulgaria was actually based in the Priazovye and Don area, roughly the same territorial shape as the OTL Crimean Khanate. If that entity would eventually become as large as OTL Khazar state, it would probably stretch from the Dnieper to indeed, the Volga.

 

[Agent23]

I'd guess a Greater Volga Bulgaria (or GVB for short) is equally possible as there being two Bulgarias of OTL.
Although it is likely that GVB will get smashed by another wave of Turks from the east - Pechengs? Kipchaks (also known os Kumans or Polovtsy)? Seldjuks? Or maybe they survive until the Mongols?

The impact of no Asparukh and Freinds on the Danube is quite interesting
A GVB will affect - besides Balkans and neighbourhood - Central Asia and the Caucasus. With potential ramifications for the Middle East (Seldjuks!!!!11) and maybe even India.

In OTL a lot of these tribes ended up in Danubian Bulgaria and we managed to turn them into allies and assimilate them.

In any case, it is not impossible that OGB could stretch
to take the lands down to Stara Planona or the Danube and take everything that GVB owned.

And given the populations of those regions I would hazard a guess that it might get Slavianized eventually, like Danubian Bulgsria was in OTL.

The one possible problem with further South-Western expansion will certainly be Byzantium and unlike Asparuch his father Kubrat who founded OGB was very chummy with the Byzantines
enough for them to give him very high titles and expansive swag.