If the Byzantines avoid losing Bulgaria in the 1180s, then maybe? Especially once the age of mass literacy will come around. But I don't know if you would actually consider a surviving Byzantine Empire to be a Greater Greece or not.
Alternate History Map Thread
- Thread starter Basileus_Komnenos
- Start date
If the Byzantines avoid losing Bulgaria in the 1180s, then maybe? Especially once the age of mass literacy will come around. But I don't know if you would actually consider a surviving Byzantine Empire to be a Greater Greece or not.
Basileus_Komnenos
Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
Nah not really tbh. Greece was nowhere near strong enough for that to occur. And by that point, it would have been counterproductive to its goals of expanding West and regaining Constantinople.
There was quite a heavy amount of Greek influence within those lands. In urban centers like Philippopolis (modern day Plovdiv), Greeks were a majority if not outright majority of the population. Though there was some slavic languages spoken in the countryside as well.
Within the Ottoman Empire the Phanariotes existed who are a group of wealthy middle class merchants, tradesmen, and bankers who were largely of Greek or Armenian origin. They had influence in the Balkans and were largely made from the old Roman nobility.
The modern Romanian noble house of Cantacuzino as you can probably tell, was descended from the Imperial House of Kantakouzenos.
There wouldn't really be an ethnic identity in the Empire. One would then identity first and foremost as Roman regardless of ethnicity. As for Bulgaria's development, it would have its nobility greatly integrated into the wider Roman world with it being gradually Hellenized over time. Though while the Bulgarian language would still likely exist in some form, it would probably be very heavily influenced by Greek.
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
In 1526 after the Ottoman Conquest of Hungary, Austria called for a crusade. With many young men eager, and with political turmoil with the pope at the time, Clement VII called for the Crusade, in hopes to distract the people from the growing Protestant Horde. His assumption that it would distract were correct. With Clement being able to prevent Protestantism from spreading to fifteen German Kingdoms and Duchies.
The so called 'Habsburg' Crusade was a long Crusade, and one that involved plenty of death. All major nations joined, save England. France, Austria, Denmark and Spain all joined, and eastern Europe became a bloodbath. The Ottoman's were winning the Crusade for the first two years, and then Spain began what would be known as the Anatolia Offensive. Greatly gaining land, but inflicting much damage to the peoples of Anatolia. Going town to town and massacring any people who would not convert to Catholicism, before burning everything. Most towns would not covert, and Anatolia would burn. With the Ottoman forces being split in two to deal with the Spanish, the Crusader forces would time after time again obliterate Suleiman's armies, Suleiman himself decided to retreat to Constantinople after loosing a hand to the flail of a French soldier. Which would become his doom.
After the Spanish lured the Ottoman army to the coastline, where with the aid of the Spanish Armada, they would be blown to bits. It was a easy trek to Constantinople, where Suleiman, His harem, and all but one son would be burned at the Stake. A close friend and Adviser would flee to Egypt with what would become Bayezid I of the Ottoman Sultanate of Egypt. Several attempts were made to enter Egypt, but all failed. Finally at the Treaty of Athenos, borders were drawn up by men and women who fought. Crowns were handed out to the Drăculești, Acestes, Abadden, Levre, Komnemos, Goromich, Lusignan, Hauteville, Capet and Hohenzollern families respectively. With each kingdom becoming Melting pots of Euopean and Arabic Cultures. Several Islamic Invasions would occur, but each would be repelled.
After the Crusade was over, many would stay, populating the 'Kingdoms' of what remained.
The so called 'Habsburg' Crusade was a long Crusade, and one that involved plenty of death. All major nations joined, save England. France, Austria, Denmark and Spain all joined, and eastern Europe became a bloodbath. The Ottoman's were winning the Crusade for the first two years, and then Spain began what would be known as the Anatolia Offensive. Greatly gaining land, but inflicting much damage to the peoples of Anatolia. Going town to town and massacring any people who would not convert to Catholicism, before burning everything. Most towns would not covert, and Anatolia would burn. With the Ottoman forces being split in two to deal with the Spanish, the Crusader forces would time after time again obliterate Suleiman's armies, Suleiman himself decided to retreat to Constantinople after loosing a hand to the flail of a French soldier. Which would become his doom.
After the Spanish lured the Ottoman army to the coastline, where with the aid of the Spanish Armada, they would be blown to bits. It was a easy trek to Constantinople, where Suleiman, His harem, and all but one son would be burned at the Stake. A close friend and Adviser would flee to Egypt with what would become Bayezid I of the Ottoman Sultanate of Egypt. Several attempts were made to enter Egypt, but all failed. Finally at the Treaty of Athenos, borders were drawn up by men and women who fought. Crowns were handed out to the Drăculești, Acestes, Abadden, Levre, Komnemos, Goromich, Lusignan, Hauteville, Capet and Hohenzollern families respectively. With each kingdom becoming Melting pots of Euopean and Arabic Cultures. Several Islamic Invasions would occur, but each would be repelled.
After the Crusade was over, many would stay, populating the 'Kingdoms' of what remained.
In 1526 after the Ottoman Conquest of Hungary, Austria called for a crusade. With many young men eager, and with political turmoil with the pope at the time, Clement VII called for the Crusade, in hopes to distract the people from the growing Protestant Horde. His assumption that it would distract were correct. With Clement being able to prevent Protestantism from spreading to fifteen German Kingdoms and Duchies.
The so called 'Habsburg' Crusade was a long Crusade, and one that involved plenty of death. All major nations joined, save England. France, Austria, Denmark and Spain all joined, and eastern Europe became a bloodbath. The Ottoman's were winning the Crusade for the first two years, and then Spain began what would be known as the Anatolia Offensive. Greatly gaining land, but inflicting much damage to the peoples of Anatolia. Going town to town and massacring any people who would not convert to Catholicism, before burning everything. Most towns would not covert, and Anatolia would burn. With the Ottoman forces being split in two to deal with the Spanish, the Crusader forces would time after time again obliterate Suleiman's armies, Suleiman himself decided to retreat to Constantinople after loosing a hand to the flail of a French soldier. Which would become his doom.
After the Spanish lured the Ottoman army to the coastline, where with the aid of the Spanish Armada, they would be blown to bits. It was a easy trek to Constantinople, where Suleiman, His harem, and all but one son would be burned at the Stake. A close friend and Adviser would flee to Egypt with what would become Bayezid I of the Ottoman Sultanate of Egypt. Several attempts were made to enter Egypt, but all failed. Finally at the Treaty of Athenos, borders were drawn up by men and women who fought. Crowns were handed out to the Drăculești, Acestes, Abadden, Levre, Komnemos, Goromich, Lusignan, Hauteville, Capet and Hohenzollern families respectively. With each kingdom becoming Melting pots of Euopean and Arabic Cultures. Several Islamic Invasions would occur, but each would be repelled.
After the Crusade was over, many would stay, populating the 'Kingdoms' of what remained.
Which Capetians got which crowns?
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
A bastard son of Louis XII. For now We will call this dude Louis I of Rumelia. I might try to do a update to who I think should get each holding tbh.
Last edited:
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
The Third CrusadeIn 1526 after the Ottoman Conquest of Hungary, Austria called for a crusade. With many young men eager, and with political turmoil with the pope at the time, Clement VII called for the Crusade, in hopes to distract the people from the growing Protestant Horde. His assumption that it would distract were correct. With Clement being able to prevent Protestantism from spreading to fifteen German Kingdoms and Duchies.
The so called 'Habsburg' Crusade was a long Crusade, and one that involved plenty of death. All major nations joined, save England. France, Austria, Denmark and Spain all joined, and eastern Europe became a bloodbath. The Ottoman's were winning the Crusade for the first two years, and then Spain began what would be known as the Anatolia Offensive. Greatly gaining land, but inflicting much damage to the peoples of Anatolia. Going town to town and massacring any people who would not convert to Catholicism, before burning everything. Most towns would not covert, and Anatolia would burn. With the Ottoman forces being split in two to deal with the Spanish, the Crusader forces would time after time again obliterate Suleiman's armies, Suleiman himself decided to retreat to Constantinople after loosing a hand to the flail of a French soldier. Which would become his doom.
After the Spanish lured the Ottoman army to the coastline, where with the aid of the Spanish Armada, they would be blown to bits. It was a easy trek to Constantinople, where Suleiman, His harem, and all but one son would be burned at the Stake. A close friend and Adviser would flee to Egypt with what would become Bayezid I of the Ottoman Sultanate of Egypt. Several attempts were made to enter Egypt, but all failed. Finally at the Treaty of Athenos, borders were drawn up by men and women who fought. Crowns were handed out to the Drăculești, Acestes, Abadden, Levre, Komnemos, Goromich, Lusignan, Hauteville, Capet and Hohenzollern families respectively. With each kingdom becoming Melting pots of Euopean and Arabic Cultures. Several Islamic Invasions would occur, but each would be repelled.
After the Crusade was over, many would stay, populating the 'Kingdoms' of what remained.
Families and Lineage.
Kingdom of Rumelia
King Louis I Visites
Capet
Founder of the Visites branch of Capet/Valois.
Line would rule Rumelia until the modern day.
Kingdom of Aktí
King Othon I Acestes
Acestes
Founder of the Acestes line.
Kingdom would later be annexed by the Kingdom of Greece
I'll update more when I feel like it.
WW2 Operation Sealion: Axis Europe Greatest Extant (Extent) by TheTexasRanger on DeviantArt:
WW2 Operation Sealion: Axis Europe Greatest Extant (Extent) by TheTexasRanger on DeviantArt:
Italy wanted Syria? I mean I'm sure they wouldn't mind having Syria, but I figure they'd be more interested in all of those Aegean islands and maybe relevant portions of North Africa (though I see they got Tunisia and Corsica).
Italy already controlled the Dodecanese, no? And I wonder: Is there no Italian invasion of Greece at all in this TL?
Yeah in this Timeline Greece and Yugoslavia must've either never gotten involved or aligned with the Axis. I see Hungary still boned Romania (literally) and I'm assuming that Romania will be getting Bessarabia back so those two are clearly aligned with the Axis again. France must've not been Vichy'd or given a lot of their territory back for being good boys, especially now that Britain is out of the fight. Though apparently the United States is still backing the Commonwealth and there is fighting in the Middle East and Egypt according to the Deviantart Artist.
Also no idea what's going on with Northern Finland/Sweden either...
Yeah in this Timeline Greece and Yugoslavia must've either never gotten involved or aligned with the Axis. I see Hungary still boned Romania (literally) and I'm assuming that Romania will be getting Bessarabia back so those two are clearly aligned with the Axis again. France must've not been Vichy'd or given a lot of their territory back for being good boys, especially now that Britain is out of the fight. Though apparently the United States is still backing the Commonwealth and there is fighting in the Middle East and Egypt according to the Deviantart Artist.
Also no idea what's going on with Northern Finland/Sweden either...
I think that France's territorial losses are a part of the peace deal that Vichy gets.
As for northern Finland, maybe Nazi Germany has a direct occupation zone there to protect the natural resources there--or something like that? Not sure, TBH.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
This one bothers me so much. It's actually just seven partition plans, and two of the flags (centre row left and centre row right) have their 'central circles' mis-aligned.
Otherwise, it's pretty cool, and I actually used some of the ideas seen here in a scenario once -- specifically a blend of the Suhrawardy plan, Choudhry Rahmat Ali's proposal, and the Aryavarta-Dravidia divide:
(Originally posted on AH.com a few years ago. Map depicts the setting in two different decades, but I've forgotten which decades those were supposed to be.)
"Inshallah laddies! Wanna get knackered?"
When Pope Innocent III interdicted King John I of England and then subsequently excommunicated him from the Catholic Church in November 1209, Innocent III believed that like most Excommunicated Monarchs, John I would come back to the Church, either through crawling or by resolution with the Church. John I, however went into a semi-state of depression over the interdiction as pressure of the English Aristocracy and Merchant class over the Interdiction grew. In 1210, John I cracked, and sent an emissary...........not to the Pope however, but to the Almohad Caliphate, the Great Muslim Empire that ruled Maghreb and Al-Andalus from Isbilliya. There, John I's emissaries told the great Almohad Caliph Muhammad Al-Nasir that the King of England wished to convert to Islam (covertly at first), and that as one of the Caliphs of Islam, it was Al-Nasir's duty to send representatives of all the great sects of Islam to England, so that John could choose which sect to convert to in England. Al-Nasir however extracted promises first, and got English naval and military support against the Castilians and Leonese to the North. In return, Al-Nasir sent priests of all Islamic Sects - Almohadism, Fatimid Shiitism, Sunnism, Ismailism, Twelver Shiitism etc to London. There, in private, each representative made their case. John I chose Nizari Ismailism as his choice of conversion - mainly due to its many similarities with Christianity (With which John had been comfortable with - such as prohibition of polygamy, allowance of alcohol {to varying degrees depending on which school} etc). John I converted to Nizari Ismaili Shiitism, becoming the Islamic 'Sultan' of England, as the title was granted to him by Caliph Al-Nasir.
Europe reacted with horror. Innocent III died of heart attack when he heard the news. English lords reacted with horror and from 1211 - 1225, the English War of Religion waged simultaneously alongside the Anglo-French War of 1202-1212 and the English naval war against the Iberians. England lost against France, but won domestically, and the Christian rebellion was suppressed. Surprisingly, John I was mostly reconcillatory and despite his newfound zeal with Islam, he knew that ruling a Christian majority country through the sword was perhaps not a good idea. Despite his reconciling policies however, it was strongly encouraged to convert. By 1300 AD, the situation had changed. John I was long dead, but his descendants had taken up the Ismaili drive, and had expanded the realm, and Ismaili Islam was finally starting to grow out of the aristocracy into the general people after 9 decades of continuous encouragement. In 1300 AD, Pope Innocent V called a Grand Crusade Against the English Sultanate, with the French, Iberians, and Germans participating, in a call to save the Irish, Welsh and Scottish Kingdoms from Islamic Rule. The English Crusade was about to start.
Spoiler Alert: Whilst the English lost their holdings on mainland France - the Crusaders lost horribly during their invasion of England. Islamic England - much like most islamic places targeted by Crusades, had endured.
From my reddit post:-
"Inshallah laddies! Wanna get knackered?"When Pope Innocent III interdicted King John I of England and then subsequently excommunicated him from the Catholic Church in November 1209, Innocent III believed that like most Excommunicated Monarchs, John I would come back to the Church, either through crawling or by resolution with the Church. John I, however went into a semi-state of depression over the interdiction as pressure of the English Aristocracy and Merchant class over the Interdiction grew. In 1210, John I cracked, and sent an emissary...........not to the Pope however, but to the Almohad Caliphate, the Great Muslim Empire that ruled Maghreb and Al-Andalus from Isbilliya. There, John I's emissaries told the great Almohad Caliph Muhammad Al-Nasir that the King of England wished to convert to Islam (covertly at first), and that as one of the Caliphs of Islam, it was Al-Nasir's duty to send representatives of all the great sects of Islam to England, so that John could choose which sect to convert to in England. Al-Nasir however extracted promises first, and got English naval and military support against the Castilians and Leonese to the North. In return, Al-Nasir sent priests of all Islamic Sects - Almohadism, Fatimid Shiitism, Sunnism, Ismailism, Twelver Shiitism etc to London. There, in private, each representative made their case. John I chose Nizari Ismailism as his choice of conversion - mainly due to its many similarities with Christianity (With which John had been comfortable with - such as prohibition of polygamy, allowance of alcohol {to varying degrees depending on which school} etc). John I converted to Nizari Ismaili Shiitism, becoming the Islamic 'Sultan' of England, as the title was granted to him by Caliph Al-Nasir.
Europe reacted with horror. Innocent III died of heart attack when he heard the news. English lords reacted with horror and from 1211 - 1225, the English War of Religion waged simultaneously alongside the Anglo-French War of 1202-1212 and the English naval war against the Iberians. England lost against France, but won domestically, and the Christian rebellion was suppressed. Surprisingly, John I was mostly reconcillatory and despite his newfound zeal with Islam, he knew that ruling a Christian majority country through the sword was perhaps not a good idea. Despite his reconciling policies however, it was strongly encouraged to convert. By 1300 AD, the situation had changed. John I was long dead, but his descendants had taken up the Ismaili drive, and had expanded the realm, and Ismaili Islam was finally starting to grow out of the aristocracy into the general people after 9 decades of continuous encouragement. In 1300 AD, Pope Innocent V called a Grand Crusade Against the English Sultanate, with the French, Iberians, and Germans participating, in a call to save the Irish, Welsh and Scottish Kingdoms from Islamic Rule. The English Crusade was about to start.
Spoiler Alert: Whilst the English lost their holdings on mainland France - the Crusaders lost horribly during their invasion of England. Islamic England - much like most islamic places targeted by Crusades, had endured.
From my reddit post:-
One of the best extremely unlikely but still somewhat remotely plausible Medieval AH scenarios ever!
Also, off-topic, but do you think that India would have still eventually gotten partitioned without one or both World Wars? It's also an Islam-related question, after all. And you yourself appear to be Indian or at least of Indian descent.
With a Medieval English Sultanate, we basically see this trend accelerated by several centuries and on a dramatically larger scale:
Converting to Islam - the white Britons becoming Muslims
The BBC's Catrin Nye reports on the growing number of white people in the UK who are converting to Islam.
www.bbc.co.uk
The Census of 1450
This is the followup of this map.
The English Crusades of 1301 - 1337 saw the loss of English territories in France, but the failure of the mainland Crusaders to properly invade England proper. Furthermore, the intended and stated goal of saving Ireland, Wales and Scotland from Islamic England failed horribly, as by the end of the Crusade, the remnant states in Wales had been completely annexed, and the Scottish Lowlands had been fully annexed. By 1347, the Scottish Incorporation saw the rump Scottish state ruled by pro-English statesmen ask for annexation to support the economy of the region. By 1400, England had fully annexed Ireland as well, and the next year, Sultan William III of England declared the Sultanate of England, Kingdom of Scotland, Emirate of Wales, and Amirate of Ireland were no longer in existence, as he declared the formation of the Caliphate of Albion - a Shia Islamic Caliphate. A second motion to crusade Albion was opened in Europe in 1404, but by this point, France no longer had the appetite to attempt a large scale naval invasion of England, especially considering the massive English naval buildup during the reign of Sultan Henry V, William III's father.
Societally, the English Crusades had an adverse effect on Christendom, as it pushed many Englishmen to embracing Ismaili Islam fully during the Crusade Era, and the refugees from mainland Europe only cemented islam on the continent even further. Islamization was followed through in Scotland and Ireland as well after their conquests, but was met with mixed results (though Scotland proved much harder than Ireland). One of the main reasons why Ireland was much more successful in islamization was because the English Conquest had led to severe amount of deaths in the Christian clergy, leading to a scarcity in christian structure in the post-conquest Ireland, allowing for the common people of Ireland to be more receptive of the English branch of Ismaili Islam, unlike the Scots who were more resistant to Islamization.
In 1448, Caliph John III ordered a complete honest religious census to take place on the isles, with the intention of gauging how 200 years of islam had gone on the isles. After two years of compilation and information gathering, the Census of 1450 was published, and is today considered to be one of - if not the - most accurate census's published in the late medieval/early modern period. With a population of around ~6.1 Million, the Albionese government found out that just above half of the population of the isles practised the English branch of Ismaili Shiite Islam.
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
I was playing CKIII and watched in horror as Byzantium fell to the Seljuks in 1082. Obviously they couldn't seize everything, but watching a 12k army topple Constantinople was, well, eye opening. I threw this together quickly, and plan to make a legit map of it later.
