Important Civility Rules Enforcement

[Zachowon]

We don't give a damn about "hate speech" as a concept. Nor about what other environments allow and expect.

What we do care about is the environment that we set out to create and maintain. Think of TS as being invited to Thanksgiving at your grandmother's with the whole extended family. You can have frank, civil, and pleasant discussion about controversial topics but even if your grandmother agreed with a slur she would still smack you upside the head for polluting her home with them.

We expect polite and civil behavior.


And Threadbanned. Here's an example of the kind of behavior that is no longer being tolerated.

I do think that is a little extreme for calling someone hitler.
This would be a good example as to ask what is to far?

That’s not how I reacted? Like at all?

I said I liked the character, you and one other person said you didn’t. I expressed dismay with your lack of knowledge of the material. (Such as it is).

That isn’t calling you stupid. I literally can not comprehend how that post was so easily misunderstood.

Except we did and it helped point out how what you are thinking about him makes you call us ignorant. The guy who was mainly arguing had read the series compared to me.

 

[Deleted member 88]

I would hope we can debate ideas that are neither mainstream nor milquetoast.

That doesn’t mean we condone every crazy ideology we discuss, but I would be most dismayed if the Sietch became a mainstream site where only the most trite and repeated ideas are acceptable exchange.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

I understand the desire to "keep civility", but don't let this snowball and turn us into a copy of Spacebattles or Sufficient Velocity-

And Threadbanned. Here's an example of the kind of behavior that is no longer being tolerated.

Threadbanned for a joke? Jesus, it's day one and we're already snowballing.

 

[Spartan303]

Out of sheer curiosity, what exactly brought this about?

I can answer this. A number of things finally catching up to us at once. As many of you may or may not know I have been running a. Outreach program to get others to cross pollinate to our board. Not to leave the other boards, but just also post on ours too. And I've been fairly successful at this. However a group of people who I had in fairly high esteem soundly rejected us. Then they showed us why. I conferred with the Staff and we did an internal investigation and found that not only was it true, it's been going on for a while. We debated about what to do and here you see the results. That's how this came about in a nutshell.

We admit to being slow to catch on and missing the signs but we can and do learn.

 

[Deleted member 88]

I do think that is a little extreme for calling someone hitler.
This would be a good example as to ask what is to far?

Except we did and it helped point out how what you are thinking about him makes you call us ignorant. The guy who was mainly arguing had read the series compared to me.

Even his knowledge of the material wasn’t as strong as mine. That’s not boasting on my part. It’s simply fact. I don’t begrudge your dislike or like. I was dismayed by your lack of knowledge of what you were discussing.

I can answer this. A number of things finally catching up to us at once. As many of you may or may not know I have been running a. Outreach program to get others to cross pollinate to our board. Not to leave the other boards, but just also post on ours too. And I've been fairly successful at this. However a group of people who I had in fairly high esteem soundly rejected us. Then they showed us why. I conferred with the Staff and we did an internal investigation and found that not only was it true, it's been going on for a while. We debated about what to do and here you see the results. That's how this came about in a nutshell.

We admit to being slow to catch on and missing the signs but we can and do learn.

So, I have to ask, is the site trying to appeal to people on SB or SV? Is this a marketing operation by the Sietch staff to make the board more palatable? Less unique? More in line with the tastes of Whitehall and SV General?

I know I don’t actually hold any sway here, but that strikes me as a rather bad idea.

 

[LordSunhawk]

Ideas are not the problem, civility is the problem.

You can debate any idea you want to... so long as you do it in a civil manner within the forum rules. The only topics that are off limits are clearly delineated in the ToS.

This is not rocket science.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

Threadbanned for a joke? Jesus, it's day one and we're already snowballing.

Civility people. This is a "serious" topic and his response to being told that slurs aren't acceptable is to go and (joking or not) call another poster Hitler. How does that contribute to a civil discussion?

Yes. I am fully aware that he was joking. That doesn't change the fact that his joke was in bad taste, disruptive to the thread, and not conducive to civil discussion. Hence a Rule 2 violation.

 

[Zachowon]

I can answer this. A number of things finally catching up to us at once. As many of you may or may not know I have been running a. Outreach program to get others to cross pollinate to our board. Not to leave the other boards, but just also post on ours too. And I've been fairly successful at this. However a group of people who I had in fairly high esteem soundly rejected us. Then they showed us why. I conferred with the Staff and we did an internal investigation and found that not only was it true, it's been going on for a while. We debated about what to do and here you see the results. That's how this came about in a nutshell.

We admit to being slow to catch on and missing the signs but we can and do learn.

I think the issue Spartan is that this could be seen as a start to a new SB with how they enforce things. People are worried we start heavily infracting for simple jokes or the like. If the posts that these people don't like are an issue and definitely are not wanted, that makes sense. If it is something say..."Yeah Hitler guy has a point" When talking about another user in a joking manner, it could lead to this being a "No Fun Allowed Zone." As my first post goes about how such thing could be abused

Even his knowledge of the material wasn’t as strong as mine. That’s not boasting on my part. It’s simply fact. I don’t begrudge your dislike or like. I was dismayed by your lack of knowledge of what you were discussing.

We noticed a fascination and denial of what happened in the lore....

 

[Deleted member 88]

Ideas are not the problem, civility is the problem.

You can debate any idea you want to... so long as you do it in a civil manner within the forum rules. The only topics that are off limits are clearly delineated in the ToS.

This is not rocket science.

The site is civil? As someone who spends a great deal of time perusing KF, 4chan, and having ventured to the most ideologically extreme sections of Twitter; the Sietch is a paradise of decorum and calm discussion.

Maybe, that’s a skewed perception, but there are far less civil places on the internet than the Sietch.

 

[Harlock]

Consider the Bus Stop test. If you and a few friends are chatting about stuff at a bus stop and there are several normal people hanging around at the same stop who may overhear you, would you be more careful in the words you pick?

 

[The Original Sixth]

I understand concerns over civility, of course, but this is supposed to be a free speech centered forum no?

Well, 90% of what we say is probably not even close to being up for review. And we all knew coming in that some things were going to be off-limits. We all know that any of the mods would break out a 40k gif if someone here ever promoted pedophilia or sexual assault. What we're really looking at is the middle ground where people aren't clear.

It’s concerning, that the Sietch staff seem to be moving the forum in a more hug box centered direction. When the forum at least as far as I understood, wasn’t supposed to be one.

Again, this brings about the issue of feedback.

Is this going to be a shift towards a forum culture where only the most banal and mainstream ideas and beliefs are allowed to be exchanged? Simply for the sake of not upsetting or offending people?

If so, that is extremely disturbing.

Well, that's not the issue. The issue here is one of expression. So what we need, is proper feedback, so we're all on the same page. What I see here is two different sides saying much the same thing; "This isn't what we expected, what the hell are you doing?"

So what we need is for the mods to show us some examples.

Civility people. This is a "serious" topic and his response to being told that slurs aren't acceptable is to go and (joking or not) call another poster Hitler. How does that contribute to a civil discussion?

Yes. I am fully aware that he was joking. That doesn't change the fact that his joke was in bad taste, disruptive to the thread, and not conducive to civil discussion. Hence a Rule 2 violation.

Well, that was one and it was certainly in bad taste given the seriousness of the discussion, but we should be aware that not everyone picks up tone well. Especially on a web forum, were tone is not conveyed well. Someone here used the argument of a factory floor worker using profanity, even amongst mixed company.

That is certainly true. What is also true is that he'd be thrown out of almost any middle or even lower-middle class establishment. So far that tells me that difficulty in tone expectations is also an issue.

 

[LordSunhawk]

That's lovely that those other sites are comparative cesspools compared to here.

It's also completely irrelevant.

We have civility rules. We are going to enforce them more strictly because some people see them as checklists of things to do rather than things not to do.

Is this so hard to understand?

 

[Deleted member 88]

Consider the Bus Stop test. If you and a few friends are chatting about stuff at a bus stop and there are several normal people hanging around at the same stop who may overhear you, would you be more careful in the words you pick?

Honestly probably not. I’ve had discussions where the people overhearing me probably left appalled, confused or angry.

 

[Spartan303]

Even his knowledge of the material wasn’t as strong as mine. That’s not boasting on my part. It’s simply fact. I don’t begrudge your dislike or like. I was dismayed by your lack of knowledge of what you were discussing.


So, I have to ask, is the site trying to appeal to people on SB or SV? Is this a marketing operation by the Sietch staff to make the board more palatable? Less unique? More in line with the tastes of Whitehall and SV General?

I know I don’t actually hold any sway here, but that strikes me as a rather bad idea.

No. We are our own forum. But we have been negligent in pushing out own rules. Whether out of Naive optimism, failure to catch it or negligence is immaterial. What it boils down to is this. We've been Lax in enforcement of the rules. Now we are not. That's what is happening.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

That's lovely that those other sites are comparative cesspools compared to here.

Also, "There are worse places on the Internet" is a ridiculously low bar, considering...well, the Internet.

 

[Zachowon]

The site is civil? As someone who spends a great deal of time perusing KF, 4chan, and having ventured to the most ideologically extreme sections of Twitter; the Sietch is a paradise of decorum and calm discussion.

Maybe, that’s a skewed perception, but there are far less civil places on the internet than the Sietch.

I think the issue is that there have been cases of where civility does not exist. Oh of course we are Civil compared to those sites.

Civility people. This is a "serious" topic and his response to being told that slurs aren't acceptable is to go and (joking or not) call another poster Hitler. How does that contribute to a civil discussion?

Yes. I am fully aware that he was joking. That doesn't change the fact that his joke was in bad taste, disruptive to the thread, and not conducive to civil discussion. Hence a Rule 2 violation.

I still think this is what people are worried about. Harsh crackdowns over jokes. I think every post that could be considered a break in Rule 2 should be discussed over by multiple moderators to ensure an unbiased decision. Would you like to be tempo banned or infracted for a joke you thought was in good taste as did others, but a single person who did not decides to get you in trouble because they have a bad sense of humor?

Consider the Bus Stop test. If you and a few friends are chatting about stuff at a bus stop and there are several normal people hanging around at the same stop who may overhear you, would you be more careful in the words you pick?

As a Soldier I will cuss and only say words I know can get me in trouble with my friends less then those around me. This test is not a good one for everyone.

No. We are our own forum. But we have been negligent in pushing out own rules. Whether out of Naive optimism, failure to catch it or negligence is immaterial. What it boils down to is this. We've been Lax in enforcement of the rules. Now we are not. That's what is happening.

I do think we should have a discussion on ways to enforce it without it seeming over the top like SB and SV.

people are worried we will be what we left.

 

[Spartan303]

think the issue Spartan is that this could be seen as a start to a new SB with how they enforce things. People are worried we start heavily infracting for simple jokes or the like. If the posts that these people don't like are an issue and definitely are not wanted, that makes sense. If it is something say..."Yeah Hitler guy has a point" When talking about another user in a joking manner, it could lead to this being a "No Fun Allowed Zone." As my first post goes about how such thing could be abused

Which is understandable. But people need to remember that the Staff here were also victims of that too. And we want to be very careful not to repeat those mistakes.

Had we caught these earlier they still would have been hit for violations of the rules. But now it's a spectacle because we are making a decisive effort to stop clear rule breaking.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Is this so hard to understand?

Well yes it is. Unfortunately on the internet, the line between tone and content is not near as clear cut.

Tone policing, the manner in which things are discussed, very often and does lead to what things can be discussed. Because certain topics by their nature will not encourage a civil or calm tone. Some debates and ideas will be contentious by nature or history.

This leads to tone and decorum being used to narrow the range of which ideas may be discussed.

It’s not a hop and skip. But the slippery slope is real.

 

[Harlock]

Honestly probably not. I’ve had discussions where the people overhearing me probably left appalled, confused or angry.

Then you need to mitigate that a little. You're going to have to think a bit about the fact that it is infinitely better if people have a neutral or favourable view of you in the world. It isn't hard to put a limit on yourself, to use some wisdom in how you express yourself.
I guarantee you that you gain more by tempering the image you present. I would very, very strongly suggest you make every effort to do so because it is a small effort to make your life better.

 

[Deleted member 88]

I think the issue Spartan is that this could be seen as a start to a new SB with how they enforce things. People are worried we start heavily infracting for simple jokes or the like. If the posts that these people don't like are an issue and definitely are not wanted, that makes sense. If it is something say..."Yeah Hitler guy has a point" When talking about another user in a joking manner, it could lead to this being a "No Fun Allowed Zone." As my first post goes about how such thing could be abused

We noticed a fascination and denial of what happened in the lore....

What? I have literally no idea what your talking about.

My main complaint(such as I had one) is that if your going to talk about a character, please be knowledgeable.

I got infracted for that once on SB-only time on appeal it got overturned. Because I convinced the mod the person I was arguing with had no idea what he was talking about.