Important Civility Rules Enforcement

[Flintsteel]

I think the issue Spartan is that this could be seen as a start to a new SB with how they enforce things. People are worried we start heavily infracting for simple jokes or the like. If the posts that these people don't like are an issue and definitely are not wanted, that makes sense. If it is something say..."Yeah Hitler guy has a point" When talking about another user in a joking manner, it could lead to this being a "No Fun Allowed Zone." As my first post goes about how such thing could be abused

I still think this is what people are worried about. Harsh crackdowns over jokes. I think every post that could be considered a break in Rule 2 should be discussed over by multiple moderators to ensure an unbiased decision. Would you like to be tempo banned or infracted for a joke you thought was in good taste as did others, but a single person who did not decides to get you in trouble because they have a bad sense of humor?

If you cannot make a joke without coming across as an asshole or edgelording, then it's not a joke worth making.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Is this so hard to understand?

It may be.

Look, you tell people "Hey, we need to crackdown on rulebreakers" after leaving a forum where "crackdown on rulebreakers" generally involved slapping people with over the top bans and citations out of malice and with hard to define rules. You had people whose infractions went from only a few dozen a year to hundreds within months, while trying to avoid said infractions.

It's why whenever anyone says something along the lines of "You know, the problem with the Jews is..." because we've all seen that movie before. And who know what happened last time someone filmed it. You guys are obviously feeling as though you got blindsided by something, but you need to give us some feedback and be ready to receive feedback or else you're going to cause a board schism and there will be NOTHING left.

Which is understandable. But people need to remember that the Staff here were also victims of that too. And we want to be very careful not to repeat those mistakes.

Had we caught these earlier they still would have been hit for violations of the rules. But now it's a spectacle because we are making a decisive effort to stop clear rule breaking.

Which brings us back to feedback. Can we get some feedback on what's going on? You can't have the staff going by one playbook and the core posters going by another, because people are going to start getting frustrated.

 

[Deleted member 1]

I would hope we can debate ideas that are neither mainstream nor milquetoast.

That doesn’t mean we condone every crazy ideology we discuss, but I would be most dismayed if the Sietch became a mainstream site where only the most trite and repeated ideas are acceptable exchange.

I understand the desire to "keep civility", but don't let this snowball and turn us into a copy of Spacebattles or Sufficient Velocity-



Threadbanned for a joke? Jesus, it's day one and we're already snowballing.

There is a real distinction between politely and legally advocating for something you believe in, and using slurs and promoting illegal activity. What is legal here is, for example, advocating for changing the law in the US to allow for all Jews to be deported to Israel. What is not allowed is advocating for killing them or calling them racial or religious-ethnic slurs. That is a clear distinction between promoting an idea, however personally noxious I find it, and engaging in discourtesy or promoting violence.

 

[Deleted member 88]

There is a real distinction between politely and legally advocating for something you believe in, and using slurs and promoting illegal activity. What is legal here is, for example, advocating for changing the law in the US to allow for all Jews to be deported to Israel. What is not allowed is advocating for killing them or calling them racial or religious-ethnic slurs. That is a clear distinction between promoting an idea, however personally noxious I find it, and engaging in discourtesy or promoting violence.

On a matter of curiosity, can we make an argument along the lines of,

“At a certain point, violence is an acceptable tool of politics if every other avenue has been closed off”-hypothetically speaking of course?

Because that’s hardly a fringe position and is accepted(to a certain extent) in most systems of political theory and ethics. That I’m aware of.

In short, can we make arguments in favor of revolution(or reaction) either in the speculative abstract or concrete today?

 

[Zachowon]

Which is understandable. But people need to remember that the Staff here were also victims of that too. And we want to be very careful not to repeat those mistakes.

Had we caught these earlier they still would have been hit for violations of the rules. But now it's a spectacle because we are making a decisive effort to stop clear rule breaking.

Oh I have seen how you and others have been, and still are being treated, on SB and our sister sites. Itr just seems that those here will think Power corrupts, especially with you saying that you are trying to get others to come here AND to sister sites. It seems like you are trying to make this a place where Hurtful words to one person are banned and everyone needs to be nice.

TLDR: If i cant say Ship is an Asshole in a thread when it should be said that he is. Is this a site of free speech?
I being a Soldier know that Free speech one can have, but what people don't like is when there is consequence. That is what this is sure, but having such a broad term as civility, can lead to people not wanting to talk any more and start to perhaps do things that are worse for them. Such as talking with Train Dodger. My civility is somewhat screwy there, but the reason is, is because I feel like one should be a little harserh to try and help that. I don't hate the guy and I will gladly try to help him as much as I ridicule him.

If you cannot make a joke without coming across as an asshole or edgelording, then it's not a joke worth making.

That is where Humor is subjective and can be an issue as well. I find jokes that make people like assholes if they are in good taste.

It may be.

Look, you tell people "Hey, we need to crackdown on rulebreakers" after leaving a forum where "crackdown on rulebreakers" generally involved slapping people with over the top bans and citations out of malice and with hard to define rules. You had people whose infractions went from only a few dozen a year to hundreds within months, while trying to avoid said infractions.

It's why whenever anyone says something along the lines of "You know, the problem with the Jews is..." because we've all seen that movie before. And who know what happened last time someone filmed it. You guys are obviously feeling as though you got blindsided by something, but you need to give us some feedback and be ready to receive feedback or else you're going to cause a board schism and there will be NOTHING left.



Which brings us back to feedback. Can we get some feedback on what's going on? You can't have the staff going by one playbook and the core posters going by another, because people are going to start getting frustrated.

Hell, if we Schism, SB and SV win..

On a matter of curiosity, can we make an argument along the lines of,

“At a certain point, violence is an acceptable tool of politics if every other avenue has been closed off”-hypothetically speaking of course?

I see nothing wrong with it. I think she is saying as long as you are not gong "WE MUST RISE UP TO FIGHT THEM! We must use Violence!".
We can discuss why you think so.

 

[Deleted member 1]

On a matter of curiosity, can we make an argument along the lines of,

“At a certain point, violence is an acceptable tool of politics if every other avenue has been closed off”-hypothetically speaking of course?

A discussion over whether or not the Declaration of Independence permits violence against a tyrannical government in some situations would not be banned, but promoting violence would be.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

Well, that's not the issue. The issue here is one of expression. So what we need, is proper feedback, so we're all on the same page. What I see here is two different sides saying much the same thing; "This isn't what we expected, what the hell are you doing?"

So what we need is for the mods to show us some examples.



Well, that was one and it was certainly in bad taste given the seriousness of the discussion, but we should be aware that not everyone picks up tone well. Especially on a web forum, were tone is not conveyed well. Someone here used the argument of a factory floor worker using profanity, even amongst mixed company.

That is certainly true. What is also true is that he'd be thrown out of almost any middle or even lower-middle class establishment. So far that tells me that difficulty in tone expectations is also an issue.

And @Shipmaster Sane was very useful in providing an example for elucidation. His post was exactly the kind of generalized thing that will be getting hit in future.

When you go to post ask yourself the following questions:
1) Is this post at least broadly on-topic for this thread? If no, look at posting a new thread about that topic.

2) Is this post presented in a reasonable, calm, articulate, manner that can be engaged with politely? If no, look at rewording it so that it meets those standards.

3) Is this post idiotic and/or insane? If yes, then expect someone to call you out for said stupidity and perhaps go back to the drawing board.

4) Is this post similar to lots of other posts that you have made in the thread or other threads? If yes, then perhaps a single thread on that topic is a better idea than shitting up LOTS of threads with your idea/position/belief.

---
If someone says something stupid, you can call them on it. You are generally expected to point out the flaws in a given post however, unless the stupidity level raises to the point where any sane adult feels like this:

 

[Spartan303]

Which brings us back to feedback. Can we get some feedback on what's going on? You can't have the staff going by one playbook and the core posters going by another, because people are going to start getting frustrated.

Right now the Staff is on the same page as full enforcement of the rules and ensure civility while maintaining our adherence to free speech; with both the benefits and responsibilities that come with it. For all involved.

Edit: Apologies for the slow responses. I'm on mobile and it's a very busy day at work.

 

[balom]

Civility seems like the camels nose of SJW convergence. It's always " can we have a little civility" at first, with the meaning of this civility always being stretched further and further in a leftward direction.

 

[Zachowon]

And @Shipmaster Sane was very useful in providing an example for elucidation. His post was exactly the kind of generalized thing that will be getting hit in future.

When you go to post ask yourself the following questions:
1) Is this post at least broadly on-topic for this thread? If no, look at posting a new thread about that topic.

2) Is this post presented in a reasonable, calm, articulate, manner that can be engaged with politely? If no, look at rewording it so that it meets those standards.

3) Is this post idiotic and/or insane? If yes, then expect someone to call you out for said stupidity and perhaps go back to the drawing board.

4) Is this post similar to lots of other posts that you have made in the thread or other threads? If yes, then perhaps a single thread on that topic is a better idea than shitting up LOTS of threads with your idea/position/belief.

---
If someone says something stupid, you can call them on it. You are generally expected to point out the flaws in a given post however, unless the stupidity level raises to the point where any sane adult feels like this:

I still think judging ones Humor can start the slide into horrible territory

 

[Emperor Tippy]

Civility seems like the camels nose of SJW convergence. It's always " can we have a little civility" at first, with the meaning of this civility always being stretched further and further in a leftward direction.

Our definition of civility is much more along the lines of "would grandma wash your mouth out with soap" and "would your parent's be offended to introduce you as their child at a work dinner".

We don't care about the content of posts (with a handful of exceptions), we care about the tone being used to express that content.

 

[Deleted member 1]

Civility seems like the camels nose of SJW convergence. It's always " can we have a little civility" at first, with the meaning of this civility always being stretched further and further in a leftward direction.

No. A lack of civility is the first step on the road to leftism. Degeneracy arises from the end of politeness and good comportment. Uncaring in your speech, uncaring in your conduct, uncaring in your dress and mannerism, and soon enough, you will also find yourself having becoming uncaring of right and wrong. That is an absolutely fundamental belief of the owner of this website. If you disagree, you are welcome to find another website to post at.

 

[Deleted member 88]

One aspect that must be taken under consideration, if nothing else for the record keeping, is that in the past five months, RW events have made everyone very hyperbolic(justified I would argue), we are living at a time where history is being made. People are dying, ideas are taking shape, forming, being discredited.

In such a juncture, even at this little forum, people will get worked up. People will say things they really feel. Even if they did not say them in real life.

Some of the issues discussed, both in the politics section and in the essays/commentary are serious business-in that they aren’t abstract. The consequences matter. Ideas and events have lasting and real effects. People could live or die, rise or fall depending on some of the issues we discuss. Even if from a distance.

It’s probably the highest stake year of the 21st century. We have crises everywhere, serious discussion about a second American civil war, some of the most insane and dangerous ideas being propounded on high, and shifts in the fortune of nations.

So who can be surprised that people get agitated, worked up, and less than civil?

This isn’t the 1990s.

Or to quote Hector Barbarossa, “you best start believing in history, your in it.”

 

[Deleted member 1]

Our definition of civility is much more along the lines of "would grandma wash your mouth out with soap" and "would your parent's be offended to introduce you as their child at a work dinner".

We don't care about the content of posts (with a handful of exceptions), we care about the tone being used to express that content.

This is exactly correct. The whole point of this website is to have a place for a Viennese coffee house type format where Trotsky and a monarchist can sit down over a cup of coffee and have a polite debate. If the waiters in a 1910 vintage Viennese coffee house would have kicked you out for your behaviour, then you will also be punished for your behaviour here.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Hell, if we Schism, SB and SV win..

No, SB will still lose. They're choking themselves into submission. It really has nothing to do with us at this point.

Right now the Staff is on the same page as full enforcement of the rules and ensure civility while maintaining our adherence to free speech; with both the benefits and responsibilities that come with it. For all involved.

My concern is that people are generally out looking to engage in something fun and safe. Most forums that are high-minded and with high standards are either very niche or fail. You certainly have the safe part in mind, but some of us are unsure of the fun part. And this is a difficult time to go through, because of what's happening in world politics. The forum too, needs an adjustment to our strategy, because we have issues like spam threads that eat up areas of the forums.

 

[Arch Dornan]

In such a juncture, even at this little forum, people will get worked up. People will say things they really feel. Even if they did not say them in real life.

I do get worked up when I see personal property get damaged so I can post something someone can get upset at.

 

[Zachowon]

One aspect that must be taken under consideration, if nothing else for the record keeping, is that in the past five months, RW events have made everyone very hyperbolic(justified I would argue), we are living at a time where history is being made. People are dying, ideas are taking shape, forming, being discredited.

In such a juncture, even at this little forum, people will get worked up. People will say things they really feel. Even if they did not say them in real life.

Some of the issues discussed, both in the politics section and in the essays/commentary are serious business-in that they aren’t abstract. The consequences matter. Ideas and events have lasting and real effects. People could live or die, rise or fall depending on some of the issues we discuss. Even if from a distance.

It’s probably the highest stake year of the 21st century. We have crises everywhere, serious discussion about a second American civil war, some of the most insane and dangerous ideas being propounded on high, and shifts in the fortune of nations.

So who can be surprised that people get agitated, worked up, and less than civil?

This isn’t the 1990s.

Or to quote Hector Barbarossa, “you best start believing in history, your in it.”

They are saying as long as you don't go "I AM GOINGNTO FUCKIMG KILL insert person, place, thing etc here." Or start to say, tell someone to kill them selves or stuff. It is fine. Things get heated and emotional.

I think a point that should be discussed is if they post uncivil once and say are told to hey go calm down. If they come back and have calmed they should not get an infraction.

It allows for people to have a reason to calm down

 

[Deleted member 88]

They are saying as long as you don't go "I AM GOINGNTO FUCKIMG KILL insert person, place, thing etc here." Or start to say, tell someone to kill them selves or stuff. It is fine. Things get heated and emotional.

I swear I do not think I have ever seen that on this site? Even from the banned users.

Hell, if we Schism, SB and SV win..

If there is ever a Sietch splinter forum, I call first dibs on being Mod.

 

[Zachowon]

I swear I do not think I have ever seen that on this site? Even from the banned users.

They broke other rules besides the civility ones.

What I am saying is don't be the kind of person who goes and claims they are gonna do soemthing gonna say they want to hurt something.

You can get worked up. Just...don't let it control how you post

 

[The Original Sixth]

They are saying as long as you don't go "I AM GOINGNTO FUCKIMG KILL insert person, place, thing etc here." Or start to say, tell someone to kill them selves or stuff. It is fine. Things get heated and emotional.

I think a point that should be discussed is if they post uncivil once and say are told to hey go calm down. If they come back and have calmed they should not get an infraction.

It allows for people to have a reason to calm down

See, reading Tippy's and Zoe's posts, I'm not sure I'm getting that. It feels as though they're trying to insist we debate like high minded philosophers in regards to high minded subjects. As opposed to a large group of people who are very passionate about what we say and believe, which tends to devolve into colorful language.

Which is why I say we need some feedback.