Eh, I wouldn't consider it a waste of money. It definitely seems to be working. About every year, there's a few examples of a thwarted white nationalist group trying to do something. I just wish they'd infiltrate the lefties more.
Feds
- Thread starter AnimalNoodles
- Start date
I'm sure they are. It's just that the left wing groups like ANTIFA are considerably larger, and mostly just LARP as revolutionaries...so it's harder to catch than the neo-nazi types. They're a smaller group, with a history of violence, and likely contain a higher percentage of violent individuals. Easier to catch. You just see more violence in general from the likes of ANTIFA lately, because there are a lot more of them, so while the majority of them are not actually violent, you see more violent incidents because there are so many of them.
This isn't me defending ANTIFA either. Fuck antifa. They're just harder to catch because a majority of them are just LARPing soy boys and blue haired lesbians who won't do anything but shout and reee in the streets. Neo-nazis, as awful as they are, seem more motivated to go out and get shit done. And by "get shit done," I mean commit acts of violence.
Let's be real. Antifa commits acts of terror, and has some terrible and violent bad actors. However, the majority of them are just spoiled middle class white kids who just want to larp and tell their parents to fuck off.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
...Maybe I missed it, but can you list some neo-nazi initiated violence in the last 20 years?
Dylan Roof ring a bell?
FBI raises neo-Nazi threat level to same as Isis
Director Christopher Wray says far-right and racially motivated terror attacks are 'national threat priority'
www.independent.co.uk
Remember, I am not excusing antifa, and I am not saying that right wingers are neo Nazis. I lean right of center these days and I'm pretty tired of being called a Nazi myself.. I'm just saying that neo Nazis tend to have violent goals and aspirations, and are a rather small group, so they're far easier to infiltrate and catch. There could be just as many violent antifa, but there are A LOT MORE antifa, so the violent ones are harder to catch, they're drowned out and hidden by LARPing lesbians and soy boys.
What militia group did he belong to and how would Federal infiltration work to prevent it?
No one said a neo nazi HAS to belong to a group, you're just shifting the goal posts.
What militia group did he belong to and how would Federal infiltration work to prevent it?
He took pictures with Nazi symbols, including a 1488, which stands for "Heil Hitler."
I think it's pretty safe to say Dylan Roof was a Neo-Nazi. He was just self radicalized rather than being part of a group.
None, but that wasn't what was asked, was it?
What militia group did he belong to and how would Federal infiltration work to prevent it?
You have anything to add here, or you just trying to take a shot at me again?
But since you want to be pedantic troll, here's a very recent example:
He's just being an ass in a sad attempt to troll me.
Sorry I'm being on topic. The thread waa about Fed infiltration of Neo Nazi groups. The question you answered was in direct chain to people talking about Fed infiltration of said groups and their efficacy. Maybe he meant Nazis in general but I prefer discussing the topic on hand.
And get over yourself. Good grief.
Behind a paywall. Please take two seconds to Google another article.
It's not paywalled for me.
So how about you Google the shit yourself this time, instead of asking to be spoon fed.
You did read the responses to the thread, and understand the context, correct? Bacle was responding to the question:Shifting goal posts?
The title of the thread is FEDS. Not the Scary Neo-Nazi Cower Hour. The discussion I thought was about FEDS infiltrating Neo-Nazi organizations.
So im not moving goal posts. Im actually perfectly on topic.
Are you arguing random Lutheran churches need to be infiltrated? Maybe turn Moms into bribed ATF informants? I don't wanna shift the goal posts here so I'll keep it focused on Dylann Roof and how the FEDS infiltration could've stopped him.
With:
To which you replied:
What militia group did he belong to and how would Federal infiltration work to prevent it?
The question which Bacle was answering never gave qualifiers such as "belonged to a militia," or "would have been prevented by federal infiltration."
Bacle answered the question satisfactorily. You then tried to refute it with these qualifiers that weren't part of the original question to which he was answering.
This is shifting goal posts. Cut and dry.
I suspect, however, that you are already well aware of this. If you're going to take pot shots and try to troll Bacle, try a little harder. This lazy and low effort attempt is as transparent as it gets.
I believe ad blockers avoid the Pay wall on Washington Post. Private browser tabs definitely avoid it.
AnimalNoodles
Well-known member
Neo Nazi groups dont get anything done. Most of them are useless, either full of feds or lead by drug addicts and pedos. They dont do much. Most of the violence from the right is cause by loners with mental illnesses.
The right wing in general has very poor organising power for several reasons, namely the fact that its leadership is either bought off, actively hostile, or made up of greedy cowards who dont believe in anything and just want to enjoy the perks of office. They had an ebryonic street corps that literally drove antifa off the streets in several street brawls in Portland and Berkeley. But instead of leading it, protecting it, and guiding it towards productive ends, they cheered as it was dismantled and pushed to the fringes.
The biggest enemy of the populists, nationalists and dissident right are the conservatives and Con Inc who serve as Vichy administrators.
Antifa OTOH actually drove the cops out of police stations, siezed territory and has carried out 50 days of street action in Portland. They have elite support, funding, deep organisation structures and are lead by people with convictions. Spoiled or not, they forced the president into his bunker.
I am so fucking tired of hearing this lie.
Trump was place in the bunker by the Secret Service, who have authority over his physical well being, and have full authority to bodily move him if to the bunker if he does not want to go there himself. He would have been forcably placed in the bunker by his guards regardless of his wishes to remain in the Oval, if he didn't go there under his own power.
Read up on some fucking Secret Service history and protocols before criticizing Trump on a matter where he didn't have a choice. Obama was forced to do the same thing several times when the White House was deemed to be under threat, even if it was just a crazy guy on the lawn or a false alarm.
Eric Feight gets 8 years in 'death ray' plot against Muslims
[...] the chief judge imposed a term on Feight at the lenient end of federal sentencing...
Also, the impression that there are a lot of FBI agents in organized groups stops organized groups from organizing violence. That's a good thing as well.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
Huh, I hadn't known he was a neo-nazi. Okay, so that's one.
There's two, even if it's paywalled.
A plot that that included both a Klukker and undercover agents investigating it.Eric Feight gets 8 years in 'death ray' plot against Muslims
[...] the chief judge imposed a term on Feight at the lenient end of federal sentencing...www.timesunion.com
Also, the impression that there are a lot of FBI agents in organized groups stops organized groups from organizing violence. That's a good thing as well.
And there's another paywalled example. Still, that'd put us up to three.
In comparison, Antifa have openly and actively been engaging in regular street violence in the USA since 2015. The riots this year are a massive escalation, but they're not remotely new.
I'd say they're still clearly the larger threat.
I have a hard time considering neo-nazis and the like large-scale threats, when they can't get so much as a hundred people at a march, and most of the times they act up it's solo operators. They should still absolutely be dealt with, but compare that to Antifa and the militant parts of BLM...
Who have thousands of members, regularly have hundreds to thousands in the streets, and have active cooperation from local and state governments.
I think that it's pretty clear which deserves more attention, and has for at least the last couple of years.
I mean, there's a long list of white supremacist attacks, I just chose one that hit @Husky_Khan 's requirements.
Here's a short list of some notable ones that were successful:
Terrorism in the United States - Wikipedia
Antifa is a problem of a different type than white supremacy. They mostly riot, have a large number of associated members that aren't actually doing anything illegal, and are a threat to society, rather than a specific threat to certain people's lives. I've rarely heard of Antifa planning murder.
Keep in mind that I wasn't arguing that antifa isn't violent. I was pointing out that they probably are actually infiltrated by feds too, but that it's harder to catch them because they have a far larger member base than probably all neo nazis put together. Also that most of them are just spoiled brat rich kids LARPing. The spoiled LARPers are essentially a shield for the violent actors. Antifa is a pretty fucking big movement, isn't centralized, and it's the bad actors that are the problem. It most definitely IS a problem, just as bad or worse than neo Nazis...but because of these things, feds likely have trouble catching them. Most cells that feds infiltrate are likely just full of a bunch of whiney brats planning to go march in the streets to piss off their parents, and not much beyond that.
As far as murderous violence goes? It appears Neo-Nazis may have them beat. However, antifa's violence is backed by democrat politicians and they've taken over cities. They're far more dangerous to society as a whole. They are a far more powerful group, with establishment support backing them.
My entire point summarized: it's harder to catch violent antifa members, they're a large and unorganized group made of of different cells, many of which aren't actually violent, but are just angsty teens.
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LordsFire
Internet Wizard
I mean, there's a long list of white supremacist attacks, I just chose one that hit @Husky_Khan 's requirements.
Here's a short list of some notable ones that were successful:
Terrorism in the United States - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Antifa is a problem of a different type than white supremacy. They mostly riot, have a large number of associated members that aren't actually doing anything illegal, and are a threat to society, rather than a specific threat to certain people's lives. I've rarely heard of Antifa planning murder.
Seven attacks since 2000. It's more than I'd expected; Antifa has conducted more attacks than that that in the last two months; the only reason more people aren't dead, is because they're so incompetent. And again, Antifa has cooperation from people within the government, white supremacists and neo-nazis overwhelmingly do not, and have not since the Democrats started moving away from overt racism in the 70's.
I'll also note the article you link has an incredibly partisan take on the car ramming in Charlottesville.
It's also interesting, if unrelated to my point, that only 7 out of the 25 most deadly terrorist attacks in the US have taken place since WWII. You'd think, given the population explosion, that wouldn't be the case. I'm genuinely curious as to why that is.
This is just the seven wikipedia decided to list, and also these are only the successful ones. This is by no means exhaustive (the one I mentioned isn't listed), especially because the feds are good at their jobs, so thwart a good deal of them. Also, there are more in the anti-semetic (which is split between muslims hating jews and whites hating jews), and some of the right wing ones I'd consider white nationalist as well (one has a guy drew a swastika on dead bodies, if I recall correctly).
For why the deadly attacks happened pre-1940's, that's because about 11 of them are really massacres where there wasn't resistance after a time period. Cars, better communication, and general policing eventually made that rare, as reinforcements could be had quickly. If we except those, we are left with about 7 pre 1940, and 7 post 1940.
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There's probably loads of examples. Ever since Clinton came into office back in 1992, the Federal government has had a big thick boner for suppressing and oppressing dangerous right wing types ranging from survivalists and firearm aficionados to white nationalists and neo-nazis and every group in between.
It's not politically practical to do so most likely. Right Wing extremists are much easier and more politically favorable to target. Even Antifa thanks to its disorganized nature would be far harder to penetrate meaningfully. For the Right Wing groups, many tend to basically be criminal gangs that happen to be White (as opposed to ethnic Latin, Asian, Black gangs etc) and those that aren't criminal groups tend to be militia types who have things like legal jobs, and websites and membership rolls and very poor discipline when it comes to information and membership control and none of the institutional wisdom that actual criminal or terrorist groups have.
So basically, you have White gangs (biker gangs and other gangs that sell things like meth) who are about as racist and supremicist and identitarian as your typical Black urban gang or Somali or Latino urban gang, but because they're White, they're not just a gang, they're White Nationalists/White Pride/White Identitarian and everything they do is construed as a hate crime and the reason they have weapons is clearly for some sort of nefarious attack on our government institutions as opposed to just shooting cops that get in the way like any properly desperate criminal would do.
Then with the militia groups, you have local, state and federal law enforcement who can't even manage an anti-gang task force in the inner city without blowing away a half dozen unarmed people a year and drowning in controversy so why dedicate resources into those urban organized crime groups when you can hit a much softer and more politically acceptable target... White gangs and militia gangs. They're easier to infiltrate since you don't have to get beaten or raped into membership and you can trap members into things like outing them to their friends and family and work, trap them into firearms charges, or real estate malfeasance, or having a too-brown Uncle from Paraguay and then get them to inform on their friends and embellish as needed and coax their members into various legal traps and strategies so they can cough up other people and turn them from merely loathing the government into becoming criminals and then get those fat juicy criminal charges against the entire group of scary White terrorists.
It's basically what they did with Ruby Ridge back in 1992. It's what they did with the Hutaree militia in 2011 (remember how that suddenly disappeared from the national conversation) and they've been targeting these scary groups everytime a Democrat has been in office. Back in 2009, Obama's DHS (pdf) released a pretty well publicized report on how terrified we should be of Right Wing groups despite the opening paragraph stating it was unaware of any current threats (but thankfully they made some up soon enough). The Government has such a throbbing boner for throwing these dangerous anti-gubmint people in prison for nebulous reasons they somehow completely fumbled their case against the McBundy's despite the fact they literally took over a federal building for several weeks because the Federal law enforcement has such a strong bias against people of their ilk.
Reading about the so-called militia movement is sad because most are pretty blah and powerless and kinda pathetic (still). Some of the militias have obviously extremist ideologies, but what's even more startling is how obsessed/retarded law enforcement and most of the news media and government is in dealing with them. It's just as bad as the anti-Muslim hysteria, only with far less suicide bombings. And it's not just the scary militia that's being singled out, it's always guilt via association. If the militias are bad, well that's directly adjacent to Tea Partiers, Gun Owners and Pro-Life or Health Care Activists.