Free Speech and (Big Tech) Censorship Thread

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
Ah, they compete for time but not viewers you say. And if not viewers exactly who's time are they competing for? I have little interest in such semantics games. And you've yet to actually establish how videos and tweets are remotely a similar or substitutable product. I mean the definition you've given is this:
I should clarify what I meant in that post. I meant that that post wasn't about demographics (of course they do compete for viewer's time, which includes how many viewers there are), which you claimed it was, but instead it was stating, again, that the product is similar enough to clearly be competitors.

If you want an explanation of how they do compete, maybe read the whole post:
Facebook used to be popular among kids though. Then it was... outcompeted by competitors, and now it isn't, so the fact that its missing some demographics is evidence of competition, and successful competition.

In a hypothetical world where there was no alternative to facebook, with no twitter, no TikTok, etc, teens do end up using Facebook. Facebook would love to have that demographic, but doesn't, because other social media companies came and used demographic niches to compete against it.

That's competition. Viewership of facebook went down and viewership of twitter went up.

With a brush that broad TV is social media, as are books, speeches, newspapers, billboards, radio, movies, power point, mail, email, music, paintings, murals, and smoke signals. You've begged the question by starting with the assumption that social media is so incredibly broad and interchangeable that it can't help but be competitive because so many things count as "social media" and what kind of media they are or what their actual function is is "immaterial." And I could get behind that as a thought experiment but it's rather pointless when we're trying to discuss economics and how big tech companies can use their excessive market share to censor competing viewpoints.
Here's another reason they are competitors: that multiple different companies need to act to silence them. Now, them acting in seeming concert is concerning, just like any competitors acting the same way and banning people. But that's yet more evidence they are competitors.

But 144 character texts and videos are totally switchable. Sure.
The 144 characters or videos is really just the packaging. The value, again, to the content creator is the ability to communicate with huge numbers of people, and thus build a fan following, which they can then monetize.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I should clarify what I meant in that post. I meant that that post wasn't about demographics (of course they do compete for viewer's time, which includes how many viewers there are), which you claimed it was, but instead it was stating, again, that the product is similar enough to clearly be competitors.

If you want an explanation of how they do compete, maybe read the whole post:

That's competition. Viewership of facebook went down and viewership of twitter went up.
My, my, yes look at those incredible drops in viewership.

IZtjexf.jpg


You know, people making "facts" up is one of my hot buttons, especially when I'm the only one providing proof and the other party's clearly just making unsupported claims.

As for demographics, that's the only metric usable for showing that the same people don't use the same media and thus they aren't competing. If there was another reasonable way to slice populations up I would use it, but such data is not available.

Here's another reason they are competitors: that multiple different companies need to act to silence them. Now, them acting in seeming concert is concerning, just like any competitors acting the same way and banning people. But that's yet more evidence they are competitors.
Kay, the problem becomes apparent.

com·pe·ti·tion
the effort of two or more parties acting independently to secure the business of a third party by offering the most favorable terms

co·op·er·a·tion
association of persons for common benefit

Antonym of Cooperation: Competition

You appear to have no idea what the word competition is, and have mistaken it for literally it's opposite meaning. You think companies working together to squash others is proof them competing rather than cooperating. That explains a lot about this discussion.

The 144 characters or videos is really just the packaging. The value, again, to the content creator is the ability to communicate with huge numbers of people, and thus build a fan following, which they can then monetize.
Okay, I don't agree. Present your proof if you have any, citation needed.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
My, my, yes look at those incredible drops in viewership.

IZtjexf.jpg
IZtjexf.jpg


You know, people making "facts" up is one of my hot buttons, especially when I'm the only one providing proof and the other party's clearly just making unsupported claims.

As for demographics, that's the only metric usable for showing that the same people don't use the same media and thus they aren't competing. If there was another reasonable way to slice populations up I would use it, but such data is not available.
My quote was refering to kids:
Facebook used to be popular among kids though. Then it was... outcompeted by competitors, and now it isn't, so the fact that its missing some demographics is evidence of competition, and successful competition.

In a hypothetical world where there was no alternative to facebook, with no twitter, no TikTok, etc, teens do end up using Facebook. Facebook would love to have that demographic, but doesn't, because other social media companies came and used demographic niches to compete against it.

And evidence:

Oh, that looks like competition to me.

Kay, the problem becomes apparent.

com·pe·ti·tion
the effort of two or more parties acting independently to secure the business of a third party by offering the most favorable terms

co·op·er·a·tion
association of persons for common benefit

Antonym of Cooperation: Competition

You appear to have no idea what the word competition is, and have mistaken it for literally it's opposite meaning. You think companies working together to squash others is proof them competing rather than cooperating. That explains a lot about this discussion.
So here's the thing. Competitors (an economic term where you went to a normal dictionary for instead of an economics definition) working together is something that can happen, which you would know if you knew more economics. It's called a cartel (drug cartel's get their name from this). It usually consists of agreeing to set a price floor/supply cap to jack prices and profitability, to create a joint monopoly... which can't happen if there's a sole monopoly. So for this to happen, Twitter can't be a monopoly, or there would be no one to cooperate illegally with.

Here's a better definition of competition for you, from wikipedia:
In economics, competition is a scenario where different economic firms[Note 1] are in contention to obtain goods that are limited by varying the elements of the marketing mix: price, product, promotion and place.
So the firms are varying their product to get a good (viewer eyes).

Okay, I don't agree. Present your proof if you have any, citation needed.
Prove that content creators make money based on their following, not on the specifics of what they create? or something else?
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
My quote was refering to kids:


And evidence:

Oh, that looks like competition to me.
Well at least you did a citation this time so commendations for that.

However when you look at the Pew data it leads to a different set of conclusions that what The Guardian edited the data to. Youtube wasn't included in the first poll at all so needless to say, including an entirely different media that wasn't present the first time around is going to change your results, a lot. As I already showed, their userbase decreased not a whit and in fact steadily grew without drops so something's up with those numbers, specifically they changed what they were asking and thus got different results.

So here's the thing. Competitors (an economic term where you went to a normal dictionary for instead of an economics definition) working together is something that can happen, which you would know if you knew more economics. It's called a cartel (drug cartel's get their name from this). It usually consists of agreeing to set a price floor/supply cap to jack prices and profitability, to create a joint monopoly... which can't happen if there's a sole monopoly. So for this to happen, Twitter can't be a monopoly, or there would be no one to cooperate illegally with.

Here's a better definition of competition for you, from wikipedia:

So the firms are varying their product to get a good (viewer eyes).
Yay, more semantics and passive-aggressive insults. Your different definition isn't even all that different considering I used the economic one. Your base assumption here is false. You allege that a company can't have a monopoly unless there's nobody to cooperate with. But you don't have to own all the business in the universe to have a monopoly. Example:

Wicked Person Airlines owns all the airlines while Evil Person Industries owns all the steel mills. When Friendly Phil tries to set up an airline of his own, Wicked Person Airlines asks Evil Person Industries to deprive him of steel to make his planes. Friendly Phil promptly goes out of business for lack of planes.

By your reasoning, cooperation between Wicked Person and Evil Person proves that there's competition because otherwise there would be nobody to cooperate. This is obvious false, Wicked Person has a monopoly on airlines and Evil Person on steel mills. They cooperate to prevent competition, they do not compete with each other.

Further this is an extremely close simile to what we actually saw happen IRL. Non-competing social media like Twitter vs. Tiktok vs. Facebook don't hit each other, because they have different products and thus don't actually compete, videos are not substitutable with texts. However when actual competition appears in the form of a social media that provides the same product, for instance Hatreon vs. Patreon or Parler vs. Twitter, suddenly the monopoly is threatened and we see a third party cut off infrastructure access and starve them out. Now we can't specifically prove collusion, granted, but as it's happened repeatedly it's a deeply suspicious and suggestive pattern.

Further if a company merely owns most of a field and has enough market share to act monopolistically and distort the market away from free-market competition, I'm willing to call that monopoly even if technically it's not because there's some other company with a small percentage share out there and technically monopoly means 100% control. I'm not interested in semantic gotchas.

Prove that content creators make money based on their following, not on the specifics of what they create? or something else?
Prove that having different products, such as videos vs. extremely short bits of text, is insignificant to the question of whether said extremely different products compete or not.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
A piece by Author Ryan T. Anderson:

Ryan T. Anderson said:
My book When Harry Became Sally: Responding to the Transgender Moment was released exactly three years ago. It was attacked twice on the New York Times op-ed page. The Washington Post ran a hit piece on it that was riddled with errors. It was obvious the critics hadn’t read the book. But they were threatened by it and wanted to discredit it lest anyone pick it up and learn from it.
Now, three years after publication, in the same week that the House of Representatives plans to ram through the Equality Act—a radical transgender bill amending the Civil Rights Act of 1964—Amazon has erased my book opposing gender ideology from its cyber shelves.

The people who did read the book discovered that it is an accurate and accessible presentation of the scientific, medical, philosophical, and legal debates surrounding the trans phenomenon. Yes, it advances an argument against transgender ideology from a viewpoint. But it doesn’t get any facts wrong, and it doesn’t engage in heated rhetoric.

After three years on Amazon it was removed from their website, including from third party sellers. The book is skeptical of some of the claims made about gender identity in relation to the Transgender "ideology." It's a long column, but a good one I feel talking about Big Tech censorship and highlighting a lot of the crux of the issues with their market monopoly on certain parts of the Western economy. Though this specifically, naturally, discusses Amazon.

Ryan T. Anderson said:
I say “Big” Tech on purpose. No one would (or should) care if one brick-and-mortar shop decided over the weekend to no longer sell one of my books. The market would more than pick up the slack. But what would happen if all the booksellers in a locale got together and agreed to no longer carry the book? Or what would happen if one of the booksellers had, let’s say, an 83 percent market share of all book sales, and that seller memory-holed the book?

We regulate businesses all the time. We need not apply to Big Tech all the features of an existing form of regulation that was designed for other contexts—whether it be nondiscrimination law, antitrust and monopoly law, or legal rules for common carriers and utilities—but policy makers need to take seriously the question of what limits should be placed on the power of Big Tech. The point is that absolutism about market freedoms is untenable. Repeating the mantra “it's a private business” doesn’t cut it anymore. It never did.

None of this is to downplay the importance of economic freedom and property rights. It is just to say that while those freedoms are important, so are other things. The common good is multifaceted. Promoting liberty as the highest good—libertarianism—improperly downplays other important facets. We want laws that take into account all the relevant factors.

To take another example: If all the bakers in Colorado refused to serve LGBT-identifying people, there might be justification for a law. But when all the bakers (including the conservative Christian ones) readily serve LGBT-identifying customers, and exactly one baker in the entire state objects to creating just one kind of product—a custom cake celebrating a same-sex wedding—there is no justification for the state to limit his property rights or to violate his religious liberty.

 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
A piece by Author Ryan T. Anderson:



After three years on Amazon it was removed from their website, including from third party sellers. The book is skeptical of some of the claims made about gender identity in relation to the Transgender "ideology." It's a long column, but a good one I feel talking about Big Tech censorship and highlighting a lot of the crux of the issues with their market monopoly on certain parts of the Western economy. Though this specifically, naturally, discusses Amazon.



Modern day book burning.

Book burning was bad then and it's bad now.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Modern day book burning.

Book burning was bad then and it's bad now.

Ironically, I decided to search for the book on Amazon and sure enough its not there, but you know what is?

Let Harry Become Sally: Responding to the Anti-Transgender Movement
Buy the other Harry/Sally book, and then read this one to understand the realities of the issue.


So the response book is available on Amazon, but not the actual book it is responding to. The description of the response book even encourages you to buy the other book first... fat chance of that happening now I guess. 🤡
 

Urabrask Revealed

Let them go.
Founder
maybe letting companies like twitter have all the rights of both platform and publisher was a mistake and one that should be corrected now.
Lil bit too late for that now. We will have to wait until 2022 or Biden falls down the stairs before we can start strangling the social media until they stop moving and seperate them.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
If Biden falls down some stairs, Horizontal Kamala takes over and she is personally beholden to big tech.
 

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