Hamas Launches Offensive Against Southern Israel

[Bacle]

Hi people
I think this discussion might be more civil, and perhaps even more informative, if some of you could refrain from making it personal with the people you are disagreeing with, or posting speculations about their inner motives.
Especially when such speculations boil down to "I reject your arguments because I consider you a bad person".

Abhorsen does it when he gets cornered on not wanting or desiring to understand military matters, and when he is confronted by arguments he has no witty NAP approved comeback to.

Notice he just keeps trying to use 'baby killer' type rhetoric to ignore the realities on the ground in Gaza and keeps trying act like his morals are the only morals that matter, and that no one else could have other views about what is moral or not, views not reliant on the NAP.

Frankly being called immoral by an AnCap is like being called a sinner by the Westboro Baptist Church; utterly meaningless and just makes me laugh.

You hate me because I have a moral system. It doesn't matter what that moral system is, btw, it wouldn't have justified the atrocities you want, and you would have replaced NAP with whatever that was. "Stupid AnCap, you hate mass murder of kids! What a stupid AnCap, you need to be less naive and let us kill kids." Replace AnCap with any type of decent moral system, and it sounds just as stupid. You want Israel to do evil and to be evil. But Israel is better than that.

I have a morals system, and it includes not wasting/spending the lives of people I value to save people who hate me.

It also is a morals system that acknowledges that a 10 year old proto-jihadi can still wear a suicide vest or fire missiles at a tank/APC, and that willing human shields don't get a pass just for being Christians who never left Gaza/Hamas's control.

Israel is going in on the ground because there are hostages they want to attempt to rescue; I'm not expecting they will find many alive if they people holding them are true Hamas zealots.

This sort of understanding the tactical realities of what Israel is going to do, and how many lives it is likely to take, and thinking Israel would be completely justified in deciding not to risk anymore of their people to do this the 'nice' way.

PS:

Bacle: You're naive!
Also Bacle: Japan could totally beat Russia in a land invasion!

Of the Kuril's, yes Japan could successful liberate those, given they have much higher sea-lift capacity and and that the Kuril's are in range of landbased weapons from Hokkaido as well.

The logistics and firepower balance of Japan reclaiming it's islands, vs Russia attempting to defend them at the ass end of their supply chain (while also keeping sending troops to invade Ukraine), favors Japan by a long shot.

Moscow won't toss nukes over the Kuril's, and wouldn't be able to supply it's forces on the island very well; plus a lot of Russia's Far Eastern units have been gutted to get mobiks to toss at Ukraine, so the forces facing Japan would be thinner than normal as well.

 

[King Arts]

Gee, it's almost like:

1. Israel doesn't want to have a nest of vipers under its doorstep anymore.

2. The leftist governments have actively solicited and encouraged migrants from MENA for a decade or more now, and fought tooth and nail to keep even the worst of actors from being sent away.

There's no conspiracy to this. It's literally just the obvious consequences of people's actions.

How are you not as much of a traitor as the lefts China shills? It doesn’t matter that leftists traitors like it. Israel is doing something to benefit themselves (get rid of Arabs) at our expense (sending them over here)

Your argument is no different than leftist “we did wrong in the past so we should accept the consequences.”

 

[Marduk]

So remember how everyone doubted me for showing that report about how Isreal wants to ship its Palestinian troubles over to the west?

As you can see, they don't care about shipping them to the West. Their real preference would be to ship them to just about anywhere, be it Europe, America, Egypt even Antarctica or hell itself, just for it to stop being their problem.

 

[Bacle]

A lot of the posts here are just a tragic rerun of the Ukraine shit show where so many talking heads made fools of themselves. Covid drove you mad, you picked up an adversarial mindset and strong cognitive bias without your brain bothering to tell you, and now you are projecting that baggage onto a conflict which doesn’t have much to do with what twisted your brain in the first place.

So strong is that distrust that you are seeking out nuance in situation where there isn’t all that much, making you helplessly susceptible to the aggressor’s propaganda. It’s sad to see and I expected better.

Conspiracy theories, people. Not. Even. Once.

The problem is, some conspiracies have proven true over the last few years (Wu Flu coming from a lab, the Vax's being unsafe, the 2020 election being stolen, etc), so some are acting as though ALL conspiracies must be true, and any situation that is rather cut and dried is being 'secretly manipulated' in one way or another.

Being able to sort which conspiracies have proven true, from which ones are just bullshit all the way or the results of racist, jihadi, or socialist propaganda, requires more than kneejerk contrarianism, and kneejerk contrarianism seems to be the go-to mindset of an unfortunately large number of people.

Lots of antisemtic memes are also getting tossed around, and a lot of people dropping their masks about their feelinge towards Jews/Israel since Oct 7th.

 

[Marduk]

How are you not as much of a traitor as the lefts China shills? It doesn’t matter that leftists traitors like it. Israel is doing something to benefit themselves (get rid of Arabs) at our expense (sending them over here)

They are sending them over here?
No, they are asking leftist idiots if they are idiot enough to invite them over with all their virtue signalling about how much they care about Palestinians, and unsurprisingly they may be getting a few quiet yeses.

 

[Terthna]

A lot. They do polls of Hamas and Fatah support. It's always around 20-40%, more around 20% usually. That's a lot of people not indoctrinated.

The majority may not support Hamas or Fatah as organizations, but most Palestinians support their goals of conquering Israel and exterminating the Jews; they just don't like the heat their actions tend to bring upon them, or the suffering they're willing to inflict on their own people in the pursuit of their goals.

I think the REAL source of the misunderstanding is that I felt that it should go without saying that Hamas and the rest of the islamic extremists are absolutely, 100% the worst. They need to be purged from the planet. Don't even feel the need to say it. Should just be universally accepted truth.

I'm not arguing it needs to be done. I'm arguing how it's being done.

You're presenting a lot of criticism, but no alternatives beyond "stop killing Palestinians"; ignoring the fact that not only are members of Hamas Palestinians, but also that people in Gaza who aren't members still support, if not their actions, then at least their overall goals.

Hamas dead, presumably. Probably also a destruction of the existing tunnels. My personal solution to Hamas as a long term problem is to let Fatah take control over Gaza, and give them the a bunch of small arms. They hate Hamas, so will stamp out any more of Hamas.

Fatah also hates Israel though, desires their destruction, and have been responsible for many terrorist attacks over the years. Putting them in charge would change little in Gaza, and would lead to more bullhonky accusations of Israel propping up their own enemies in order to justify oppressing the Palestinian people.

 

[evilchumlee]

If they were doing wholesale slaughter of civilians, you'd have a point. But despite what some disgusting morally empty people want, Israel is better than that.

Hamas dead, presumably. Probably also a destruction of the existing tunnels. My personal solution to Hamas as a long term problem is to let Fatah take control over Gaza, and give them the a bunch of small arms. They hate Hamas, so will stamp out any more of Hamas.

I think this is my issue.

The goal is... Hamas dead. Yes. I understand that and that would be a great thing.

Also... that's almost downright impossible without pretty much just, killing everyone in Gaza. What measurable metric can we use to determine "Hamas dead"? To that, what is "Hamas"? Active combatant? Somebody who gives them money? Somebody who says "I support Hamas" and otherwise goes about their day?

If the goal is to defeat Hamas, what does that mean?

Remember when the US spent two decades fighting the Taliban, "won", and then the Taliban came back?


EDIT -

Removed a quote, unsure of how to edit to quote the correct person so just deleted.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

The problem is, some conspiracies have proven true over the last few years (Wu Flu coming from a lab, the Vax's being unsafe, the 2020 election being stolen, etc), so some are acting as though ALL conspiracies must be true, and any situation that is rather cut and dried is being 'secretly manipulated' in one way or another.

Being able to sort which conspiracies have proven true, from which ones are just bullshit all the way or the results of racist, jihadi, or socialist propaganda, requires more than kneejerk contrarianism, and kneejerk contrarianism seems to be the go-to mindset of an unfortunately large number of people.

Lots of antisemtic memes are also getting tossed around, and a lot of people dropping their masks about their feelinge towards Jews/Israel since Oct 7th.

My rule of thumb with conspiracy theories, which is the opposite of a few on here, is that ten percent happen to be right whilst ninety percent just aren’t. Simply put, conspiracy theories are fountains of sewage that on occasion hit the target, and not even fully at that (the vaccines were nowhere near as dangerous as some thought, with the distinct lack of microchips to boot…).

Edit: They also have a nasty habit of whipping people up into frenzies who then do things they wouldn’t normally do. Speaking of anti-Semitic lunacy, I am an Englishman, and my country was on the doorstep of a conspiracy theory that spiralled completely out of control some eighty years ago.

That conspiracy theory got national power, and its path ended at Auschwitz.

Never again.

 

[Bacle]

My rule of thumb with conspiracy theories, which is the opposite of a few on here, is that ten percent happen to be right whilst ninety percent just aren’t. Simply put, conspiracy theories are fountains of sewage that on occasion hit the target, and not even fully at that (the vaccines were nowhere near as dangerous as some thought, with the distinct lack of microchips to boot…).

Eh, I'd put it at 50/50 on being reasonable or not.

When someone says a conspiracy is 'because of the Jews controlling the world' I tend ro dismiss it out of hand, same when it's shit like 'the moonlanding was faked'.

When the conspiracy is 'undercover depopulation scheme by people who buy the lies of Malthus', or 'greedy medical corps/commercial interests want to be able to sell harmful stuff via government mandate', or 'our government is controlled by mutually blackmailing pedos' it is far more believable.

Also, I don't think the chip thing is the main concern, more the cancer causing SV40 sequences that have been found, and the fact the vax's spike proteins do not stay in the injection site like advertised and tend to accumulate in the heart and brain.

And when you get stupidity like 'Mossad allowed Oct 7th to happen', it becomes obvious some people cannot accept that sometimes things just happen, and not everything is part of some grand conspiracy.

 

[Terthna]

So the goal is... kill all the Palestinians?

No; the goal is to kill their will to fight. Which unfortunately may necessitate the deaths of a large number of Palestinians. There's really no alternative; other than allowing events like October 7th, and retaliations in response to them, to keep happening.

I mean consider this; do you think stopping Nazi Germany, and the horrors they inflicted, was worth the deaths of several million Germans? Because that's what it costed.

 

[Husky_Khan]

My rule of thumb with conspiracy theories, which is the opposite of a few on here, is that ten percent happen to be right whilst ninety percent just aren’t. Simply put, conspiracy theories are fountains of sewage that on occasion hit the target, and not even fully at that (the vaccines were nowhere near as dangerous as some thought, with the distinct lack of microchips to boot…).

Edit: They also have a nasty habit of whipping people up into frenzies who then do things they wouldn’t normally do. Speaking of anti-Semitic lunacy, I am an Englishman, and my country was on the doorstep of a conspiracy theory that spiralled completely out of control some eighty years ago.

That conspiracy theory got national power, and its path ended at Auschwitz.

Never again.

Well there's also a largely subjective difference between conspiracies and conspiracy theories and you can't really expose the latter without positing a conspiracy existing in the first place.

For example there were a lot of conspiracies regarding the Election of 2020 and while there was a conspiracy... There were a lot of conspiracy theories that turned out to be bunk in relation to it. But the latters existence doesn't deny that the conspiracy itself didn't exist, just that some facets of it were wrong.

So you can say that there was a 2020 Election Conspiracy but that doesn't mean US Special Forces raided a CIA Server Bank in Germany where the election data was being held was also true. Likewise that particular theory being bunk doesn't mean all Election 2020 conspiracies are false or don't exist.

So throwing out percentages of ones true or not seems a bit too broad.

Plus there's literally lots of conspiracy theories out there. Like lots... And many are pretty far out.

 

[TheRejectionist]

I'm honestly fucking laughing at some of the pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli posts in this thread. Seriously.

Why any of the posts that are in contrast your perspective necessarily mean they are pro-Palestinian?

Yes, Israel isn't exactly innocent and have done some underhanded and nasty shit on their own, but for fuck's sake if you're equivalating a deluded Islamic death-cult with them, then there's something seriously wrong with you.

I mean, the organizations supporting are

I'm dipping out for now. This shit is just too funny.

See you on other threads I guess

A lot of the posts here are just a tragic rerun of the Ukraine shit show where so many talking heads made fools of themselves. Covid drove you mad, you picked up an adversarial mindset and strong cognitive bias without your brain bothering to tell you, and now you are projecting that baggage onto a conflict which doesn’t have much to do with what twisted your brain in the first place.

No it clearly showed that the enemies are already inside and is, so we have a legitimate grievance and an ethical and moral right to oppose anything they try to do or not do. Your reasoning is that we should support Israel no matter what, at least @Abhorsen and @mrttao can come up with a compelling argument to why we should do so, meanwhile you are being the adversarial one. If we were the ones with a twisted brain, we would writing down sentences like this or like the proposal of @GoldRanger to throw Palestinians into gas chambers or be deported to Europe, which both are creepily appaling for different reasons.

So strong is that distrust that you are seeking out nuance in situation where there isn’t all that much, making you helplessly susceptible to the aggressor’s propaganda. It’s sad to see and I expected better.

There is reason to be distrustful of anything, especially considering the last 23 years of geopolitics.

Conspiracy theories, people. Not. Even. Once.

Sure. USS Liberty was a conspiracy theory then? Pollard's contribution to compromise US citizens is just a conspiracy? The Lavon Affair false flag operation was just a conspiracy theory? Or how about Lillehammer affair ? Or how about when the Mossad murdered a countrymen of mine, José Alberto Albano do Amarante, because we were trying to develop our own nuclear weapons? Or how about when the Israeli intentionally helped the Syrian moderate(only in fighting capability and ability) opposition and admitted it when they were failing ? Or how one of their intelligence members explicitly said they would have ISIS controlling Syria than anyone else?

 

[Cherico]

They are sending them over here?
No, they are asking leftist idiots if they are idiot enough to invite them over with all their virtue signalling about how much they care about Palestinians, and unsurprisingly they may be getting a few quiet yeses.

to be fair that support for them has been one of Israels biggest pains in the ass over the years and historically the quickest way to turn people against the palastinians is to have them as neighbors.

 

[commanderkai]

1.Support of communism till soviet fell,support of leftists now.Voting for Democrats in USA.Spitting on priests in Holy Land.
Attacking christians in Holy Land.
Of course,not all jews - but those who rule in Izrael are responsible for supporting Putin,and attacking christians there.

2.What "our"? Palestine was never christian enemy.Certainly not Poland.
I do not care about their fight with jews,becouse jews,at least those ruling in Izrael,are christians enemies and want us dead.

Let's say all of this is true.

There are some Jews (I think specifically those same Jews who also shit on Israel as a main culprit of this) who are rude, and even spit on Christians.

Meanwhile, Christian communities across the Muslim world have been massacred, and Lebanon, a once beautiful Christian country, is now a cesspit because of Muslims taking over. Muslim Ottomans destroyed Christian culture throughout Eastern Europe.

So, yeah, at worst, you should be indifferent to Israel. The Palestinians will (and have) attacked Christians, and decimated the Christian Palestinian population. They are not friends of Christians.

 

[Abhorsen]

Remember when the US spent two decades fighting the Taliban, "won", and then the Taliban came back?

We never got near winning. We tried to nation build. We never had control over the borders. And the Taliban were not a death cult. These are two vastly different examples that have little to do with each other.

So the goal is... kill all the Palestinians?

That wasn't my statement you quoted, do you mind fixing that? Leaving off Terthna makes it look like a continuation of the quote above.

Fatah also hates Israel though, desires their destruction, and have been responsible for many terrorist attacks over the years. Putting them in charge would change little in Gaza, and would lead to more bullhonky accusations of Israel propping up their own enemies in order to justify oppressing the Palestinian people.

There's a difference between hating Israel, antisemitism, even wanting to genocide another group, etc, and being a death cult. A death cult is one where the the group views their own death as a positive good. Fatah doesn't seem to be that, though I could be wrong.

As long as the other side doesn't want to die, you can actually negotiate. If they do want to die, there is no possible negotiation that can be done.

I have a morals system, and it includes not wasting/spending the lives of people I value to save people who hate me.

No, you clearly don't. Not a real one. It's "I do what I like because it's convenient for me." Any moral system worth anything actually causes you problems.

Abhorsen does it when he gets cornered on not wanting or desiring to understand military matters, and when he is confronted by arguments he has no witty NAP approved comeback to.

Of the Kuril's, yes Japan could successful liberate those, given they have much higher sea-lift capacity and and that the Kuril's are in range of landbased weapons from Hokkaido as well.

Please. They would just nuke the Kurils if it even looked like they might lose. What incentive would they have to not just nuke the Kurils? It's their own land, no one is actually going to condemn them harshly for nuking their own land, and Russia comes off as a lot scarier.

Or more likely, Russia just retaliates by chucking non-nuke rockets at Mainland Japan, killing thousands of Japanese citizens, and everyone in the world would be fine with this, because Japan FAFO'd.

Seriously, genius idea: let's push the crazed dictator with nukes even further into a corner by harnessing a military with no desire to actually have an offensive fight and no capacity for an invasion.


As for me having no arguments, that's simply not true. I had arguments, you decided "WAH, I don't like it when Abhorsen talks about basic moral theory, such as responsibility for an action, because I have no morals."
You've consistently failed to respond to any arguments I have with anything but "Hamas Bad, Hamas is death cult" as if everyone and their mother didn't know that, then reply to my response to that argument with "Hamas bad, Hamas is death cult". Why would I bother coming up with new arguments when you haven't even attacked my original ones?

You haven't changed any of your beliefs from when you were a Dem. You've instead simply lost all morality entirely, and gone from woke to Clinton. To quote myself, because you are so boring to argue with that I can just recycle my old put downs of you in regards to you trying to chuck Ancap at me:

It's also funny how quickly you try to resort to (attempted) scare words like ANCAP when you realize that you have no argument. It's a sad attempt at an ad hominem that fails on a number of levels. First, I'm barely arguing libertarian points right now. That you think telling Israel to be slightly circumspect about it's bombing the DoD how to get its shit together is at all ANCAP shows everyone with a wrinkle in their prefrontal how little you understand really anything. Second, an ad hominem doesn't work well when I go "yes, and?" Third, you already used up your quota of "No, you are!" In your first paragraph. Look, libertarians understand that neolibs aren't really playing with a full deck, so we do offer a handicap of allowing kindergarten level debate tactics, but we draw the line at allowing using the same one over and over again. Maybe swap it up with a "sticks and stones" attempt?

 

[TheRejectionist]

Let's say all of this is true.

There are some Jews (I think specifically those same Jews who also shit on Israel as a main culprit of this) who are rude, and even spit on Christians.

Meanwhile, Christian communities across the Muslim world have been massacred, and Lebanon, a once beautiful Christian country, is now a cesspit because of Muslims taking over. Muslim Ottomans destroyed Christian culture throughout Eastern Europe.

So, yeah, at worst, you should be indifferent to Israel. The Palestinians will (and have) attacked Christians, and decimated the Christian Palestinian population. They are not friends of Christians.

Both are not our friends.

Israeli nationals or pro-Israelis about shipping their problem elsewhere, which seems to be Europe now.
So, I am very inclined to say they are a detrimental element to Europe and the wider world. In turn, I am very much inclined to me not wanting to support it. It's a problem they themselves created so it is only fair they deal with it.

 

[Marduk]

Both are not our friends.

Israeli nationals or pro-Israelis about shipping their problem elsewhere, which seems to be Europe now.

No its not its one of the options, and only if its retarded enough to volunteer - which only our internal enemies are, who also happen to love Muslim immigration and go with said immigrants to protests against Israel. I think those comments are very much aimed at such people.

So, I am very inclined to say they are a detrimental element to Europe and the wider world.

Very obviously pre-concieved conclusion from your saide that oh so surprisingly fits the rest of your agenda.

 

[evilchumlee]

No; the goal is to kill their will to fight. Which unfortunately may necessitate the deaths of a large number of Palestinians. There's really no alternative; other than allowing events like October 7th, and retaliations in response to them, to keep happening.

So if their will to fight goes down to the last man... guess it is what it is?

I mean consider this; do you think stopping Nazi Germany, and the horrors they inflicted, was worth the deaths of several million Germans? Because that's what it costed.

You're comparing apples to hand grenades right there.

The biggest issue here is that Israel fighting a nation, they're fighting an idea. Nazi Germany had a clear, measurable way to be defeated. It should also be noted that... the Allies did not go in and kill all the Nazi's... in fact, a scant few years after the way many (former) Nazi's were back in positions of power. There are still Nazi's both within Germany and abroad.

Hamas is barely an organization, and it's also just one of many. Israel... might be able to "kill all Hamas", until... there's just more Hamas.

Unlike the Nazi's, who would have needed a massive political apparatus to be any threat again, a few Hamas dudes could pull off another October 7th. I get why could support of the idea "well then just kill them all" but... that's just not acceptable.

 

[Bacle]

No, you clearly don't. Not a real one. It's "I do what I like because it's convenient for me." Any moral system worth anything actually causes you problems.

No, I just don't let lolbertarian morals dictate what I find to be a morally acceptable situation or outcome, nor allow naive compassion to cloud my eyes about people who want most everyone not under their banner dead.

You just don't like that your NAP morals are not being treated as the gold standard, and your foolishness regarding military affairs and international politics as not treated as the norm.

If people like you and others hadn't been tut-tutting at Israel for decades anytime they try to protect themselves from Hamas and friends, maybe Israel wouldn't have endured Oct 7th and dealt with Hamas and friends long before now.

Please. They would just nuke the Kurils if it even looked like they might lose. What incentive would they have to not just nuke the Kurils? It's their own land, no one is actually going to condemn them harshly for nuking their own land, and Russia comes off as a lot scarier.

The fallout that would fall on North Korea, China, and their own people in near the NK/CCP/Russia border area is why the nukes would not be used, and because losing the Kuril's does not endanger the core of the Russian nation around Moscow and St. Petersberg.

And the Kuril's are not Russian land, they are Japanese territory that Russia has illegally occupied; but then again, you knowm that but don't want to admit it.

Or more likely, Russia just retaliates by chucking non-nuke rockets at Mainland Japan, killing thousands of Japanese citizens, and everyone in the world would be fine with this, because Japan FAFO'd.

Russia launching conventional rockets at Japan would require them to divert forces and ammo away from hitting Ukraine, and unlike Ukraine, Russia has no land connection to Japan it can push troops through, and Japan has far more sea-lift capacity than Russia does in the Far East. Not to mention hitting Japanese Home Island over Japan liberating the Kuril's risks the US responding due to the defense treaty with Japan.

As well, if Japan simply says that all Russian forces must leave the Kurils in 24 hours, and after that Japan is going to start wrecking their military hardware that is still on their island, and only when that is all dealt with will Japnese troops physically liberate the island.

Seriously, genius idea: let's push the crazed dictator with nukes even further into a corner by harnessing a military with no desire to actually have an offensive fight and no capacity for an invasion.

Japan has Marines who are trained specifically to retake outlying islands from foreign occupiers, due to the CCP's actions in the South China Sea and around Taiwan, and the JSDF has plenty of ability hit shit in the Kuril's with stand-off weapons before any Japanese troops liberate the island on foot.

As for me having no arguments, that's simply not true. I had arguments, you decided "WAH, I don't like it when Abhorsen talks about basic moral theory, such as responsibility for an action, because I have no morals."

No, you have morals as dictated by the NAP and AnCap ideology, which you try to foist onto the rest of us and judge the rest of us by.

Where as I have morals that are dictated by preserving the US Constitution as much as possible, in protecting friends/allies from mutual enemies, and in not allowing the lies and manipulations of compassion by the Lefties and foreign powers to dictate how I view military matters.

And I notice when I actually have good, hard arguments for my position that you cannot refute, you just ignore them and keep trying to push your 'you are moralless because you don't adhere to my AnCap ideology and isolationist views' bullshit.

You've consistently failed to respond to any arguments I have with anything but "Hamas Bad, Hamas is death cult" as if everyone and their mother didn't know that, then reply to my response to that argument with "Hamas bad, Hamas is death cult". Why would I bother coming up with new arguments when you haven't even attacked my original ones?

No, I have replied with details about the tactical situation on the ground, the reasons for my views on Gaza due to wanting to minimize IDF/Jewish deaths in the ground action, and the realities on the ground with regards to how deep the Hamas indoc goes.

Where as you just keep ignoring said arguments and details to just bleat about how 'moralless' I am, then continuing to push the lie that the Kuril's are Russian land, and that most of Gaza aren't part of either Hamas or Islamic Jihad due to how they have controlled the place for years, long enough whole a generation to know nothing but Hamas rule/control.

Your ignorance of the actual state of many military matters around the world becomes very evident when you make claims about who can do what/who would respond to what with what force.

You haven't changed any of your beliefs from when you were a Dem. You've instead simply lost all morality entirely, and gone from woke to Clinton. To quote myself, because you are so boring to argue with that I can just recycle my old put downs of you in regards to you trying to chuck Ancap at me:

And you trying to claim I have no morals, simply because I do not share your morals, is you just trying to claim your morals are the only morals that matter.

Also, you forget the Dems left me when they pushed the Woke shit and I didn't go along with it. And my objection to the Dems was never about the MIC or being willing to fuck up our nations legit enemies, so your assumption that such had anything to do with me leaving the Dems is you pushing your isolationist AnCap ideals onto my past self.

And the post you picked doesn't actually help your argument, because it is from an exchange where once again you started assuming you could push your morality on me, insulting me for not hating the MIC/seeing is as 'rotten skinsuit', and pretending that just because I do not agree with your AnCap beliefs it means i have no morals.

You also made rather large assumptions about my life and mindset in the post, and have bore a grudge against me for daring to call out your AnCap BS for what it is.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

in what way are they our enemy?

Why will they always be our enemy?

We are the West! The Great Satan! Need I say more? Palestine is an Islamic fundamentalist hellhole them driving Israel into the sea won't moderate them.

What actions have they taken against us?

What? Is their vast connection to Islamic extremist groups not enough? Do you think that even if every Israeli dropped dead tomorrow the Palestinians would just moderate and we all just sing Kumbaya?

No, their leaders will need a new scapegoat to pawn off all problems on and *hint* it won't be Russia, China or any other local country that will be public enemy number #1 it's going to be the United States as usual.

What possible harm can they do against us?

I don't know what harm can a highly uncentralized nation of insanely fundamentalist Islamist do? You tell me literally, Afghanistan was a breeding ground for Al Qaeda long before we were ever there, and lord knows we did nothing but help them against the Soviets.

Were they our enemy in the 1800's when the Ottoman Empire was still around? That area was solidly Muslim then.

Thats some bullshit if I ever heard it, the modern breed of thought that is the fundamental Islamic theology connected to terrorism arose in the late 1800's and early 1900's in Egypt long after the time of irrelevance you are bringing up and well before subject we are discussing.

In other words Kings Arts people have changed since then and the Islamic religion as a whole has changed since then, that isn't changing because you wish things were different.

Even if the U.S. personally executed evert Jew in Israel televised, I have no fucking faith that Fundamentalist Islamic Thought will change for the better in any immediate future.

And what do you mean by "us" anyways?

The United States and for reference for anybody here who isn't an American I couldn't give a damn what argument anyone gives otherwise unless they have citizenship because they are neither voters nor taxpayers nor is the U.S. supposed to in an ideal world cater to anybody's needs but its own.

This sounds like some Bush tier apologism for forever wars.

Watch your language little lady! I have never advocated for any ground intervention (By the U.S. at least) in Gaza nor have I advocated for any genocide, Heh, you can't touch me!

Certainly not Poland.

I will be honest I don't care about Poland's opinion in this, my taxpayers dollars at work.