In Defense of Imperium of Man

[evilchumlee]

Besides the Left acts more like a Chaos cult than the right does. Filthy Heretics.

40K started as a parody...over the decades it has forgotten this. How many Ork players would pay money for an Ork model holding an American Football. It is actually a bomb and if the Ork gets close enough to a valuable target...it explodes when the Ork spikes the ball.

I think there are alot of people who would like to see it return to parody.

I think 40k works best when it's just... kind of ridiculous.

 

[ATP]

I think there are alot of people who would like to see it return to parody.

I think 40k works best when it's just... kind of ridiculous.

Well,parody and tabletop game made to fight in melee when dudes had lasers.
That is why we do not need to defend WH40 logic,becouse such thing do not existed ,at least in the beginning.

Just embrace melee with lasers and grim ending,becouse it is why we love WH4 0 - for melee with lasers and grim ending for everybody including winners.

 

[evilchumlee]

Well,parody and tabletop game made to fight in melee when dudes had lasers.
That is why we do not need to defend WH40 logic,becouse such thing do not existed ,at least in the beginning.

Just embrace melee with lasers and grim ending,becouse it is why we love WH4 0 - for melee with lasers and grim ending for everybody including winners.

I totally agree.

I CAN see where some criticism comes from in the days since 40k has drifted a bit from parody. Some might see glorifying the actions of the IoM to be "problematic". I personally don't agree with that... but at the same point, from my own experience, 40k does attract a certain pro-fascist type (despite the fact that, as this thread shows, calling the IoM "fascist" is probably poor terminology)

I like to take in different perspectives. Some of the criticisms come from GW justifying the actions of the IoM. Again I don't really see the issue... they've created a world where, unfortunately yeah the IoM needs to be the way it is. That's not to say the IoM's model would be a good thing literally anywhere else, but for 40k... yeah it actually IS necessary for survival.

 

[Ixian]

If the Imperium even had the mere ability to be a fascist state (one with high degree control by a central government with an autocratic leader), it would be a very different setting.

What the leftists really mean is that the whole setting, and Imperium in particular, are covered in enemy colors through the lens of their ideology, by mere existence attacking their many sensibilities.
Basically, it's a setting where in many ways leftist ideals, particularly the current year incarnations of them do not work, and the setting is painfully clear about this.
There isn't much leftism, what is there doesn't work very well, and it's not a safe space culturally either.
And if you haven't noticed, future oriented fiction and non fiction are something which holds a special place in leftist's hearts. After all, leftism is supposed to be what history and civilization progress towards, and when they say that they are "on the right side of history", that's what they mean. James Lindsay's lectures bring it up sometimes, the future, fictional or not, and the idea of being judged by history, has an additional, ideological meaning to leftist idealists.
Meanwhile in 40k, it's the friggin 41st millenium, and socialist utopia is nowhere to be seen, bah, it's further away than it was in the mere 3rd millenium.
40k, by its shape alone, is a middle finger to leftist theory.

The Socialist utopia is in the backstory of 40k, it ended in 20k in fire, blood, madness, and death.

In my opinion the Imperium is the worst regime imaginable by humans, which doesn't mean it's the worst in the setting.

But yeah, they are evil by our standards, all the factions are, and that's a good thing

 

[evilchumlee]

But yeah, they are evil by our standards, all the factions are, and that's a good thing

Yeah the entire point is a... grimdark future. It's supposed to be terrible.

I have been getting more ok with the idea of kind of pushing the IoM to being not so much just mustache twirling evil for the sake of it, but more... "it is what it is" types. I was having a discussion about the possible inclusion of female Space Marines and I was initially against it just on grounds of that's not how the Imperium is.

But then it made me think... why not, especially with Guilliaman. If the situation is that the IoM is on the verge of defeat and they need every available possible weapon they can get, especially with the introduction of Primaris... fuck it.

Now I did argue that a female Space Marine would probably be moot and that the geneseed would just... basically overwrite all of it anyway. Made me also think that Space Marines aren't exactly "men"... they don't reproduce. Their sex might just be, "Space Marine".

For an out of universe perspective... it kind of makes sense for GW to do it. I'm sure there's people out there would buy female SM models. More shit to sell. In-universe, it makes the IoM a bit more pragmatic...

 

[Ixian]

Yeah the entire point is a... grimdark future. It's supposed to be terrible.

I have been getting more ok with the idea of kind of pushing the IoM to being not so much just mustache twirling evil for the sake of it, but more... "it is what it is" types. I was having a discussion about the possible inclusion of female Space Marines and I was initially against it just on grounds of that's not how the Imperium is.

But then it made me think... why not, especially with Guilliaman. If the situation is that the IoM is on the verge of defeat and they need every available possible weapon they can get, especially with the introduction of Primaris... fuck it.

Now I did argue that a female Space Marine would probably be moot and that the geneseed would just... basically overwrite all of it anyway. Made me also think that Space Marines aren't exactly "men"... they don't reproduce. Their sex might just be, "Space Marine".

For an out of universe perspective... it kind of makes sense for GW to do it. I'm sure there's people out there would buy female SM models. More shit to sell. In-universe, it makes the IoM a bit more pragmatic...

The "why not" would be that 1. It goes against the established lore, and 2. Its completely unnecessary both from a watsonian and doylist perspective.

Also some space marines do reproduce, in a limited number of chapters, and only prior or just in the beginning of the organ implant process.

The Space Wolves & Salamanders are the best example.

But really from a lore perspective female space marines make no sense, and even from a "diversity & inclusion" perspective they make no sense, already plenty of female inclusive factions and characters in the setting.

 

[Marduk]

Yeah the entire point is a... grimdark future. It's supposed to be terrible.

I have been getting more ok with the idea of kind of pushing the IoM to being not so much just mustache twirling evil for the sake of it, but more... "it is what it is" types. I was having a discussion about the possible inclusion of female Space Marines and I was initially against it just on grounds of that's not how the Imperium is.

But then it made me think... why not, especially with Guilliaman. If the situation is that the IoM is on the verge of defeat and they need every available possible weapon they can get, especially with the introduction of Primaris... fuck it.

Now I did argue that a female Space Marine would probably be moot and that the geneseed would just... basically overwrite all of it anyway. Made me also think that Space Marines aren't exactly "men"... they don't reproduce. Their sex might just be, "Space Marine".

For an out of universe perspective... it kind of makes sense for GW to do it. I'm sure there's people out there would buy female SM models. More shit to sell. In-universe, it makes the IoM a bit more pragmatic...

Even vast majority of men are not compatible with the geneseed as is.

I don't see why the Imperium would invest incredibly scarce resources into trying to massively modify it to work on a token amount of women, as opposed to thousands of other possible research avenues. Instead of trying to give it abilities even Emperor didn't engineer into it, they could, say, try to slightly increase the genetic and age compatibility range for the geneseed, which would definitely be easier and dramatically expand the pool of available recruits. The age one would be particularly useful, as it would allow Astartes to stop having to recruit from feral worlds and underhive gangs because implantation generally fails if started on recruits older than mid teens or so and otherwise good luck getting teenagers with good combat record, and they could go for exceptionally heroic, already battle tested guardsmen if they could extend it to 25 or so, also imagine the storytelling possibilities.

 

[Ixian]

Even vast majority of men are not compatible with the geneseed as is.

I don't see why the Imperium would invest incredibly scarce resources into trying to massively modify it to work on a token amount of women, as opposed to thousands of other possible research avenues. Instead of trying to give it abilities even Emperor didn't engineer into it, they could, say, try to slightly increase the genetic and age compatibility range for the geneseed, which would definitely be easier and dramatically expand the pool of available recruits. The age one would be particularly useful, as it would allow Astartes to stop having to recruit from feral worlds and underhive gangs because implantation generally fails if started on recruits older than mid teens or so and otherwise good luck getting teenagers with good combat record, and they could go for exceptionally heroic, already battle tested guardsmen if they could extend it to 25 or so, also imagine the storytelling possibilities.

Thats essentially what they did with the Primarius Marines, although I spend a lot of time trying to forget they exist, alongside the resurrected Squats, neither of which really fit the gothic vaguely mideval feudal aesthetic in space that I enjoy so much.

 

[Marduk]

Thats essentially what they did with the Primarius Marines, although I spend a lot of time trying to forget they exist, alongside the resurrected Squats, neither of which really fit the gothic vaguely mideval feudal aesthetic in space that I enjoy so much.

It can be retroactively applied to normal Astartes as an upgrade, but i don't think it changed the recruitment age limits.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

The Imperium of Man is an unbreakable shield, forged by the God Emperor to defend humanity from the horrors beyond the stars. Without it, mankind would have been destroyed long ago.

To say otherwise is heresy. And to be frank, for the majority of the God Emperor’s subjects, life isn’t so terrible. It can be monotonous, but you’ll live out your life in peace for the most part.

 

[Typhonis]

Don't they already HAVE the Sisters of battle as a female space marines ? They wear power armor, they carry bolters and love flamers.

 

[Marduk]

Don't they already HAVE the Sisters of battle as a female space marines ? They wear power armor, they carry bolters and love flamers.

They aren't stronk superhumans like Astartes, which triggers certain kinds of people for ideological reasons. They are just very religious humans with nice gear. In practice anyone with sufficient money and connections can get even nicer gear, like, say, a rogue trader.

 

[Aldarion]

But then it made me think... why not, especially with Guilliaman

Because women are not men, and hormonal makeup is extremely different.

Also, there already are female space marines. They are called Sisters of Battle.

 

[Simonbob]

They aren't stronk superhumans like Astartes, which triggers certain kinds of people for ideological reasons. They are just very religious humans with nice gear. In practice anyone with sufficient money and connections can get even nicer gear, like, say, a rogue trader.

I still think that nobody should be listining to those morons who won't even buy any 40K stuff.

Warhammer should ignore non-customers.

 

[Marduk]

Because women are not men, and hormonal makeup is extremely different.

Also, there already are female space marines. They are called Sisters of Battle.

SoB don't have the same combat ability as Astartes, plus have different roles and organization. Also forgot, Callidus assassins are also all-female.

 

[ATP]

The Socialist utopia is in the backstory of 40k, it ended in 20k in fire, blood, madness, and death.

In my opinion the Imperium is the worst regime imaginable by humans, which doesn't mean it's the worst in the setting.

But yeah, they are evil by our standards, all the factions are, and that's a good thing

Worst regime imaginable? Orwell and Huxley say otherwise - becouse they imagined worst.
And worst were arleady made by Lenin,Trocky,Sralin,Hitler ,Mao and Polpot.

Do be frank,compared to what various leftist arleady did,IoM are bunch of boyscouts.

 

[Ixian]

Worst regime imaginable? Orwell and Huxley say otherwise - becouse they imagined worst.
And worst were arleady made by Lenin,Trocky,Sralin,Hitler ,Mao and Polpot.

Do be frank,compared to what various leftist arleady did,IoM are bunch of boyscouts.

We are talking about a civilization that performs lobotomies on babies and sticks anti-gav thrusters and flutes in them.

Your examples are worse, because they are real, but if we are to take the fiction of the Imperium at face value they are definitely far more horrific than the above. Much of the Imperium would be a nightmare that would make a Stalinist gulag seem heavenly.

 

[Ixian]

SoB don't have the same combat ability as Astartes, plus have different roles and organization. Also forgot, Callidus assassins are also all-female.

Besides the point in my opinion, also ignores that the Sisters aren't just Humans in power armor, they are also warp witches who draw their power from the Emperor as opposed to one of the Chaos Gods.

 

[ATP]

We are talking about a civilization that performs lobotomies on babies and sticks anti-gav thrusters and flutes in them.

Your examples are worse, because they are real, but if we are to take the fiction of the Imperium at face value they are definitely far more horrific than the above. Much of the Imperium would be a nightmare that would make a Stalinist gulag seem heavenly.

True.But there are many worlds when you could live almost normal live,too
Something not possible in soviet state - even elites there was prisoners living in better conditions.

In other worlds,there was places worst then gulag there,but also almost good ones.When in soviets there simply was no good place to live.

 

[StormEagle]

Because women are not men, and hormonal makeup is extremely different.

Also, there already are female space marines. They are called Sisters of Battle.

That doesn’t matter to the lefties, because it’s not actually about female representation in the setting.

It’s about infiltration, co-opting the setting to serve leftist messaging, and driving out the old fans that loved said setting.

The did it with Star Wars, they did it with Star Trek, they semi-accomplished it with LotR, Dungeons and Dragons, Magic the Gathering, and I believe Battletech.

In short, it’s about taking the setting from old fans and breaking it on the yoke of THE MESSAGE.

Space Marines are the poster boys for 40K. They’re what most normies think of when they think of 40K at all. Therefore, the space marines must be co-opted first.

Doesn’t matter that there’s already an all female army in the game. They aren’t the headliners, even if they are fairly popular. So they don’t matter for ideological purposes, and are actually harmful to their demands.