Mass Effect Mass Effect general thread

Iconoclast

Perpetually Angry
Obozny
Is there anything you would consider "conflict among the protagonists" in previous Mass Effect games, or other Bioware RPGs?

In the first Mass Effect, Wrex comes inches from literally shooting Shepard in the face, because Shepard is planning on destroying a facility that might hold a cure to the Genophage.



In Andromeda, Drack crumbles under a weak retort after being literally the only person in the game to ever question the competence of the Pathfinder and their crew.



There is no real interpersonal conflict in Andromeda. There's no bollocking.



Drew Karpyshyn knew how to write some bollockin'-good characters. The one-liners were actually funny in the original trilogy. This is the franchise where, if you want, you can punch a reporter for putting you on the spot. Multiple times. And get away with it. Andromeda had nothing like that.

That's because all the conflict in centered in the Initiative leadership.

The lack of conflict among the crew makes sense, since they were trying to go for a lighter tone, but then they made the situation so dire that it kinda went against that whole idea...

Sort of like Star Trek: Insurrection.

They're literally two inches from Lord of the Flies, and they're all jokey with each other. The main characters in Andromeda spew their biographies with minimal prompting, but they never actually say anything of substance. Everyone in Andromeda kisses the ground that the Pathfinder walks on, right out of the starting gate, without you ever earning their trust, admiration, or respect.

The writing is just so irritating, for me. I was half-expecting us to find out, in a twist, that everyone in the Initiative was part of a hive mind with SAM, just to keep them in line.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
I really enjoyed the gameplay and graphics of Andromeda, but yes, the plot is very thin in places.

Cora is too busy making sure everyone knows she's an Official Asari Commando Charity Case Mascot to bother asking relevant questions like, "Why the hell did my *mentor* decide to screw me over by passing the Pathfinder mantle to his *totally unqualified* kid?"

(Also, *someone* should have called for the player Pathfinder to resign once they found out exactly why that dear Daddy in fact did it, because that is in fact what the Pathfinder should have done.)
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
The writing is just so irritating, for me. I was half-expecting us to find out, in a twist, that everyone in the Initiative was part of a hive mind with SAM, just to keep them in line.
I really enjoyed the gameplay and graphics of Andromeda, but yes, the plot is very thin in places.
I mean, there's a 90% chance the game script is literally a first draft, because Mac Walters had to slap together a game in 12-18 months out of whatever the previous directors had actually gotten around to making.

If the management on the production hadn't been utter shit, there probably would've been a better everything, including the script.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
I mean, there's a 90% chance the game script is literally a first draft, because Mac Walters had to slap together a game in 12-18 months out of whatever the previous directors had actually gotten around to making.

If the management on the production hadn't been utter shit, there probably would've been a better everything, including the script.

As I understand it, Andromeda's development cycle was one hell of a mess. Hadn't the previous dev teams wasted a tremendous amount of time figuring out what sort of game they wanted to make, let alone complete it?
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
As I understand it, Andromeda's development cycle was one hell of a mess. Hadn't the previous dev teams wasted a tremendous amount of time figuring out what sort of game they wanted to make, let alone complete it?
Well, it was the same dev team, just under previous management and leadership.

That said, yes, they did waste horrific amounts of time trying to figure out what to make.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
Well, it was the same dev team, just under previous management and leadership.

That said, yes, they did waste horrific amounts of time trying to figure out what to make.

They aimed for the sky then came crashing back down to Earth. It's why one must establish limitations in a creative project or else you'll go all over the place. As I understand it, one of their biggest slip ups was making the map too big. Too many placeholder planets, when they'd probably have been better off focusing on a handful of solar systems so they could truly flesh out the planets there.

Had you been in charge of Andromeda, what would you have made?
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Had you been in charge of Andromeda, what would you have made?
First of all, I would've fucking fired everyone who was bitching about getting tools and/or information from the Dragon Age team in Edmonton.

Second, the aesthetic for the ancient alien technology is "Bismuth Up in This Bitch":
large-bismuth-crystal_400x333.jpg


Third, there's one, maybe two big ass open world maps. One of them is going to have a crashed ancient alien warship that's shaped like Libra from Gundam Wing, but bismuth:
p01qi956rta11.jpg


Every other planet is basically going to be the same map size as Havarl, so that it doesn't take forever to traverse. There'll be specific missions/sequences where you need the Nomad, aside from the open world planets.

Fourth, definitely keep the loyalty missions and Nomad banter.

Fifth, I'd change the story so that the Andromeda Initiative is getting there at the same time some aliens from Andromeda are showing up, and there aren't any natives more advanced than cavemen on a handful of worlds. But there's plenty of weird shit floating around that indicated something happened between when the Initiative and the advanced Andromeda race(s) left their homes and when they arrived. Game is all about figuring out what's what, who's who, and trying to team up to survive.

Sixth, the opening prologue mission is set in the Milky Way to introduce the starting cast to each other.

Seventh, there needs to be a fucking replacement for or enhancement of Paragon/Renegade. The tone thing they tried to go for just didn't hit, and there needed to be way more interrupts.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
An admittedly small side point, but it would have been nice to have a bit of dialogue where someone points out it would have been fucking nice to have THEIR OWN WARSHIPS, and someone actually says, "Yeah, but the Alliance banned us from having armed ships because we're a private organization, and we haven't had the resources to jury-rig our ships with anything now that we're out here."

And then perhaps an actual subplot about gathering enough resources to actually fit weapons, maybe even with showing that the Initiative ships were pretty blatantly "fitted for but not with" weapons to technically comply with the Alliance regs?
 

Stargazer

Well-known member
In the first Mass Effect, Wrex comes inches from literally shooting Shepard in the face, because Shepard is planning on destroying a facility that might hold a cure to the Genophage.



In Andromeda, Drack crumbles under a weak retort after being literally the only person in the game to ever question the competence of the Pathfinder and their crew.



There is no real interpersonal conflict in Andromeda. There's no bollocking.



Drew Karpyshyn knew how to write some bollockin'-good characters. The one-liners were actually funny in the original trilogy. This is the franchise where, if you want, you can punch a reporter for putting you on the spot. Multiple times. And get away with it. Andromeda had nothing like that.



They're literally two inches from Lord of the Flies, and they're all jokey with each other. The main characters in Andromeda spew their biographies with minimal prompting, but they never actually say anything of substance. Everyone in Andromeda kisses the ground that the Pathfinder walks on, right out of the starting gate, without you ever earning their trust, admiration, or respect.

The writing is just so irritating, for me. I was half-expecting us to find out, in a twist, that everyone in the Initiative was part of a hive mind with SAM, just to keep them in line.


Right, the confrontation with Wrex on Virmire was a great moment. Added meaning to your interactions through the later games, too.

One really underwhelming aspect of Andromeda for me was the squad member characters, certainly. The fun, interesting, and emotionally engaging cast of characters you bring along on your adventures is always a big part of what I enjoy about Bioware RPGs. I mean, what other major Western developer still does that, really? It's rather unique. So it's a major blow for Andromeda's cast to be so lackluster and uninteresting. And part of that probably is, as you said, from a lack of any real interpersonal conflict and tension with the player character or each other.

I wouldn't put the character writing all on Drew Karpyshyn, though. He was really only the lead writer for ME1; he's credited for ME2, but he really just contributed the basic outline before leaving to work on "Star Wars: The Old Republic". I think Mac Walters deserves some credit for the strengths of ME2 and ME3's story and characters (as well as the ample amount of flaws in the writing). There's also the rest of the writing team, guys like Chris L'Etoile, Patrick Weekes, and John Dunbrow.
 

Iconoclast

Perpetually Angry
Obozny
The one thing I did really like about Andromeda was the environment art.

image - 2022-07-27T102835.121.png

EA's "let's use Frostbite for everything" idea was terrible, though. The original ME trilogy were built on Unreal Engine 3, if memory serves. They should have stuck with Unreal instead of trying to shoehorn single-player RPGs into Frostbite. A team having pre-existing experience with an engine is a big deal in game production. Apparently, ME4 is going to be built on UE5, so that's good to hear.

UE5 has a lot of features that make it incredibly attractive for game developers. Nanite means you can throw in unoptimized models without having to author LODs by hand and the engine will just automatically tessellate them so that they draw no more than one poly per pixel, and Lumen gives you real-time global illumination out of the box, so there's no need to bake lighting into a level.

One of the hardest parts of making a game is coming up with all the art, and UE5 has massive asset libraries and photogrammetry materials that speed all that along. There are only so many kinds of dirt, gravel, rock, grass, et cetera, and game developers shouldn't have to remake all-new assets every single time.

People loved the art in Crysis 3, but very few people realize that it was a result of like, 800 people at Crytek sleeping under their desks with insane crunch shortly before the company nearly went bankrupt. Devs shouldn't need to do that.

Right, the confrontation with Wrex on Virmire was a great moment. Added meaning to your interactions through the later games, too.

One really underwhelming aspect of Andromeda for me was the squad member characters, certainly. The fun, interesting, and emotionally engaging cast of characters you bring along on your adventures is always a big part of what I enjoy about Bioware RPGs. I mean, what other major Western developer still does that, really? It's rather unique. So it's a major blow for Andromeda's cast to be so lackluster and uninteresting. And part of that probably is, as you said, from a lack of any real interpersonal conflict and tension with the player character or each other.

The characters in the first trilogy felt like actual people. The characters in Andromeda don't feel like people. They feel like museum kiosks. You walk up to them, press the red button on top of their heads, and receive perfunctory and boring expository monologues about their backstories. Liam was about halfway through blabbering all about his lovely little gasoline-fueled antique car he had shipped all the way from the Milky Way for nothing more than sentimental value before I let out a deep, agonized belly-groan.

I wouldn't put the character writing all on Drew Karpyshyn, though. He was really only the lead writer for ME1; he's credited for ME2, but he really just contributed the basic outline before leaving to work on "Star Wars: The Old Republic". I think Mac Walters deserves some credit for the strengths of ME2 and ME3's story and characters (as well as the ample amount of flaws in the writing). There's also the rest of the writing team, guys like Chris L'Etoile, Patrick Weekes, and John Dunbrow.

Absolutely, and I think this is the essential lesson, here. An RPG is only as good as its writing team. It doesn't matter what it looks like. It can have Dwarf Fortress-like ASCII art for graphics, but there is no excuse to skimp on writing.
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
Back to playing Mass Effect 2 Legendary Edition for the first time in a few months. Now I'm 10 hours in to the campaign.

Its a good game, though, I don't think the Collectors are nearly as good as antagonists as Saren so far. Saren always felt one step ahead, was menacing, and was personal. Even Sovereign felt personal, at least in time.

The Collectors feel really vague in comparison.

The missions feel more fleshed out though. Level design is definitely improved. ME1 had that really obvious straight corridor feel, which they corrected in ME2. You're still just going down a corridor, but it isn't nearly as obvious and in your face about it.

Character progression is a huge downgrade though, and they somehow managed to make the galaxy map worse
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
This will likely be controversial, but why is Citadel DLC so popular? I’ve never played it, but from seeing the sheer overload of cringe marvel humour in it, I never intend to.

It doesn’t feel like a serious story at all.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
This will likely be controversial, but why is Citadel DLC so popular? I’ve never played it, but from seeing the sheer overload of cringe marvel humour in it, I never intend to.

It doesn’t feel like a serious story at all.
Because it is just a load of fun with all your teammates from all the games. No saving the world, no grand deeds... just having fun, joking, relaxing, and shooting up a bunch of mercenaries.

Think of it as Mass Effect's equivalent to a group visit to a theme park.
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
This will likely be controversial, but why is Citadel DLC so popular? I’ve never played it, but from seeing the sheer overload of cringe marvel humour in it, I never intend to.
It's basically a proper sendoff for the characters (it originally released post ME3 ending controversy), and is a ground level story, which the franchise is actually really good at, but doesn't focus on enough. And it's a big palette cleanser, because a lot of ME3 is very depressing and bittersweet, especially if you play Citadel when you're supposed to, pre-final mission.
 

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