Nowa Polska

Spy

Cherico

Well-known member
Wladyslaw Bartoszewski- polish spy


The Soviets lost a million people in the Russian Polish war, they lost more then a hundred thousand fighting the Finns, they lost 40 million in world war 2, and they easily lost over 300,000 men because of various partazin groups during the occupation. At the end of the day the Russians only had so many people. That's why they blinked.

The Russian bear had taken too many casulities and was dealing with too many conflicts all at once. That's why when confronted with their utter destruction they blinked and dragged their troops out of Poland. After that we brought in Nato forces after that we brought in our nukes, american nukes so that the Russians wouldn't try it again.

The country was in ruins, the russians took as much plunder as they could before they left destroyed as much as possible out of spite, but they were on a time limit so we found the reeducation camps we found the mass graves we found the documentation they left behind, and the response to that was.

"Its not real socialism."

Give these people pictures, camera's, film, audio tapes, writen transcripts show them the actual mass graves and their response?

"Not real socialism."

Frustrating, but we were able to get the idea that the Russians were hit hard by all of their wars. They didn't have the people to resettle the baltics with ethnic russians like they wanted to, they didn't have enough people for a lot of things but the insult of 'losing' Poland hit them just as hard as 'losing' china hit the yankees.

There was very much the sense in Moscow that they couldn't back down that they couldn't show weakness. For our part we had won an impossible victory. Our efforts to befriend Nixon paid off and that's why we took his death hard. It was just after Nixon passed the Civil rights act and he decided to take a trip to Texas.

A man ran up to the car with a revolver and emptied the whole clip into him. Lee Harvy Oswald, he got captured for it was given the chair for it and the fact that he was a member of the american communist party? Well there was yet another crack down on that lot.

Not just in America we had a lot of traitors who we killed off informers and the like but we understood that we had lost a friend. In Poland his statue still stands.

OIP.w61a9mqhVv4z1VPBVLIIdQHaJ4
 

ATP

Well-known member
Wladyslaw Bartoszewski- polish spy


The Soviets lost a million people in the Russian Polish war, they lost more then a hundred thousand fighting the Finns, they lost 40 million in world war 2, and they easily lost over 300,000 men because of various partazin groups during the occupation. At the end of the day the Russians only had so many people. That's why they blinked.

The Russian bear had taken too many casulities and was dealing with too many conflicts all at once. That's why when confronted with their utter destruction they blinked and dragged their troops out of Poland. After that we brought in Nato forces after that we brought in our nukes, american nukes so that the Russians wouldn't try it again.

The country was in ruins, the russians took as much plunder as they could before they left destroyed as much as possible out of spite, but they were on a time limit so we found the reeducation camps we found the mass graves we found the documentation they left behind, and the response to that was.

"Its not real socialism."

Give these people pictures, camera's, film, audio tapes, writen transcripts show them the actual mass graves and their response?

"Not real socialism."

Frustrating, but we were able to get the idea that the Russians were hit hard by all of their wars. They didn't have the people to resettle the baltics with ethnic russians like they wanted to, they didn't have enough people for a lot of things but the insult of 'losing' Poland hit them just as hard as 'losing' china hit the yankees.

There was very much the sense in Moscow that they couldn't back down that they couldn't show weakness. For our part we had won an impossible victory. Our efforts to befriend Nixon paid off and that's why we took his death hard. It was just after Nixon passed the Civil rights act and he decided to take a trip to Texas.

A man ran up to the car with a revolver and emptied the whole clip into him. Lee Harvy Oswald, he got captured for it was given the chair for it and the fact that he was a member of the american communist party? Well there was yet another crack down on that lot.

Not just in America we had a lot of traitors who we killed off informers and the like but we understood that we had lost a friend. In Poland his statue still stands.

OIP.w61a9mqhVv4z1VPBVLIIdQHaJ4

They still should made all soviet and german death camps museums,and made movies about that.
Even better - war movies about polish partisants.
Green Berets was movie made to support USA in Vietnam - now,they could made 10 such movies about Poland fight and soviet and germans crimes.

By the way - Poland should demand money from both soviets and germans now,not later - keeping showing to the world,tat they were allies.

And,in case id USA get pinky again,made alliance with Italy and Spain.

So,since those poles are smart,they would made few plans:
1.Making Poland as strong as possible - relatively easy,just let people made money,and made beaurocrat caste as small as possible.Inly serious state spending - military.

2.Made alliance with USA

3.In case of USA getting another FDR - keep our own nukes independent,and keep alliance with Spain and Italy.Help them get nukes.

4.In case they fell to leftists,too - help them develop their colonies.It would be Algier.Libya,part of Sahara and Angola/from Portugal/
Keep nukes there,too.
If shit hit the fan,it would be enough to survive.

P.S if France,Italy and Spain get taken by leftist later,their colonies could still remain as kind of Chad France,Italy and Spain in exile.
And as allies of Poland.
 
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Sino Soviet war

Cherico

Well-known member
Map-280x184.jpg



Peter Wozinac -the Sino soviet war.


Poland did not get its prewar boarders back.

While the hated communist puppet state collapsed as the russians left the boarders they left behind were the boarders of the new poland, any thing more then that just wasn't possible. The Polish missle crisis and the loss of poland was a moment that caused the soviet to lose a massive amount of face and repulation. It was followed by revolts in eastern europe that were put down with horrific brutality.

Into this scene came Mao who saw weakness and decided to build his own nuclear weapons and challange Moscow for the position of master of the communist world. This was something that the Soviets took personally and both sides openely bickered and attempted to meddle in the third world, often times getting in each others way.

One case where this bickering blew up in their faces was Eithopia where the fighting between Soviet and chinese backed communist militias was so vicious that the monarchy was able to regain its breath and reconquer and obliterate both with western aid. Such was the story in much of africa which during the 60s became a bloodsoaked nightmare world as the three blocks backed different leaders.

The two countries bickering came to a head in 1969, JFK had triumphantly returned to politics in a rematch against the much weaker Lodge. But dispite his charisma Kennedy very much lived in Nixons shadow. Under Nixon the civil rights act had passed, under Nixon the liberation of poland had happened, under Nixon Cuba's communist government had been crushed, and in death he became a maytre.

Dispite his charisma he was more timid then Nixon and this lead to disaster. When Russia had enough of Mao and invaded on flimsy pretext Kenedy dithered, sending naval assets to protect local allies but doing little else. When the Russians used gas on Chinese defenders Kenedy condemed it but did little more then use words.

When the chinese responded to this with their own gas attacks and when Russia launched nuclear weapons Kenedy shut down. Filled with indecision he did nothing for days while nuclear fire rained down upon china. Then China responded with what nuclear weapons they had destroying much of the Russian far east but doing no actual damage to european russia. The Russian counter response horrified the world as every chinese city of importance was hit.

It was only after this that Kennedy decided to send weapons and supplies to china to help them fight off the invading russians. By this point Mao was dead as was more then half the country. The remaining chinese population was filled with terrible anger about Russias' aggression.

The Russian attempt to create a puppet state failed, remaining chinese generals turned into warlord armies, civilians who had lost family members seized weapons from caches and took the fight to the russians.

The Russians used tanks, gas, mass murder and systimatic rape, attempts to hide the results of the Sino Soviet war failed, and the far left in much of the world which had already been realing from the revelations of attocities against the poles took a body blow, and attitudes towards the soviet union hardened.

The russians had the technological edge they were increadbly brutal and they were willing to do anything to win, but each attrocity just further fueled chinese resistance. Dispite all of their advantages the Russians found themselves in a Quagmire fighting all across china, but the soviet system having done all of this could not leave china. They could not allow another loss of face to happen and doubled down.

And as this happened weapons and training from all over the world flowed into china.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Now,something which should happened in RL,if Kissinger do not saved Mao ass.Much better world with no Mao and Polpot,and soviets without western help.

On OTL they should fall becouse of economy,but both Wall Street and Germany saved them with money and technologies.
Now,it would be no longer possible,and we would have much bigger Afganistan.

What about Tibet here? would they get independent? and would North Vietnam use it as chance to get more territory from China?

Would North Korea and Vietnam armies help soviet here in occupation ?

In Europe - what about Germany? in OTL they get money and help from USA,now part of that would get to Poland.
How much weaker it made them?
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Now,something which should happened in RL,if Kissinger do not saved Mao ass.Much better world with no Mao and Polpot,and soviets without western help.

On OTL they should fall becouse of economy,but both Wall Street and Germany saved them with money and technologies.
Now,it would be no longer possible,and we would have much bigger Afganistan.

What about Tibet here? would they get independent? and would North Vietnam use it as chance to get more territory from China?

Would North Korea and Vietnam armies help soviet here in occupation ?

In Europe - what about Germany? in OTL they get money and help from USA,now part of that would get to Poland.
How much weaker it made them?

The german economic miracle has happened so western germany is doing better. Poland basically blocks all of the land acess points so east germany is doing worse then OTL.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
The german economic miracle has happened so western germany is doing better. Poland basically blocks all of the land acess points so east germany is doing worse then OTL.
German economy miracle,at least partially,was possible thanks to come back of money stolen by germans from entire Europe.
And,in OTL germans in 1956 start lying about "polish death camps" to made world forget about their crimes.They succed.

How it was made in your TL ? did german tried lie about it,too?
And did poles try better to get german cryminals and stolen goods ?
 

Cherico

Well-known member
German economy miracle,at least partially,was possible thanks to come back of money stolen by germans from entire Europe.
And,in OTL germans in 1956 start lying about "polish death camps" to made world forget about their crimes.They succed.

How it was made in your TL ? did german tried lie about it,too?
And did poles try better to get german cryminals and stolen goods ?

Germany in ATL both east and west blames everything that happened on east prussia. So you get 'prussian' death camps, and books extoling how the evil prussians forced their evil upon the rest of germany. The fact that the Nazi's core power base was east prussia kind of helps sell this story.

German nationalism in ATL is essentially good germans bad prussians.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
Germany in ATL both east and west blames everything that happened on east prussia. So you get 'prussian' death camps, and books extoling how the evil prussians forced their evil upon the rest of germany. The fact that the Nazi's core power base was east prussia kind of helps sell this story.

German nationalism in ATL is essentially good germans bad prussians.
Logical,kinda hard to blame Poland in your TL.
To be honest,we were stupid to not react in OTL.Commies could do nothing becouse of soviets,but our Church could do more.
Making peace with germans in 1965 was clearly mistake.
 
Xu Deqing - Chinese historian

Cherico

Well-known member
Xu Deqing - Chinese historian


801,430,00 estimated people before the Sino Soviet war.

In the first year 400 million people a little less then half of China's population was dead. It was fortunate for China that much of the population was rural that so many underground shelters had been built during the paranoid years when the Korean war ended, when China feared that the yankees would use nukes to let Taiwan regain the mainland.

That fear never materialized and during the war we realized who our real enemy was. Pretty much every major city on the mainland was hit, our counter strike killed 10 million soviets most of them in the far east and Siberia. The war didn't however end with the bombs.

The Russian army came in expecting that their nuclear weapons gave them victory, it only made us hate them that much more. So we fought. The enemy had the tanks, they had gas, they had planes with all of our industry destroyed we just had our AKs. But by then we were used to gurella conflict.

The Russians' soon realized our resolve to fight wasn't gone and got worse, civilians were targeted heavily and purposefully, campains of mass rape were common. But China is a very big country and the rest of the world was willing to supply us with what ever we needed.

It was around the 3rd year of the war that the Russians realized they couldn't hold the entire country, Tibet and Xinjiang were given independence. Inner mongolia was given to Mongolia. Jilin and Heliongjaing were given to North Korea. Lioling was split between the North Koreans and the Mongolians giving Mongolia access to the sea. Both countries then expelled the han population who lived their in what we now call the march of dispair.

Very few people survived it, we were angry at the Mongolians but we had a special rage for the Norks for they had knifed the chinese people in the back, but dispite this the war went on, because there wasn't one organized resistance group but many and because the soviets had decapitated the old leadership they had to fight each one invidually.

It was in the 5th year of the war that forces from Taiwan looked at the exausted chinese and struck. The Russians screamed bloody murder but with their hands full and facing a power backed by the west they were forced to allow it. Taiwan would be allowed to occupy the land below the Yangzi, but everything else was the peoples republic of china.

Only no one reconized the traitor regime, the Chang hated it but with the south wreaked by nuclear war and bombing he reluctantly accepted. US and western aid flowed into south china as did refugees as the south rebuilt. But weapons flowed northwards to us to those of us in the fight.

Years passed as the war continued, by 1979 a decade had passed, and the Russians were no longer quite as convinced of their superiority. We got better at traps, and anti tank weapons and stingers flowed from the rebuilding south, but it was a matter of national pride the Russian just wouldn't accept defeat and we had grown to hate and dispise them.

More time passed, and we started destroying more and more russian tanks, more of their choppers. Killing more of them in commando raids. A few brave souls traveled north under cover of darkness to destroy the trans siberian railroad, more then once we did so cutting the enemy off from supplies forcing them to retreat, but they kept coming back.

We recieved more supplies more training, more weapons and with each battle we learned and got better. The Russian got worse more or them started doing drugs, their standards fell, the conscripts we faced didn't have the same spirit as before. In 1989 the war finally ended. The Soviet union left china.

China was left a broken nation, before the war we had more then 800 million people, when the war ended we had 200 million. When the nationalists came north of the River there wasn't any organized resistance. We had fought 20 years against the Soviets and any ways they came north with food, water and supplies.

We haven't forgotten what the Russians did here, were still finding mass graves even now, and though its been decades a generation since the war we are still nowhere near our prewar numbers, but we are rebuilding and we will never forgive the Russians for what they did.
 
Vadym Hetman- Ukrainian vet

Cherico

Well-known member
Vadym Hetman- Ukrainian vet


The Soviet union died in China.

Fact is the war was only popular with Russian ethnics, and after the nuclear attacks pretty much everyone else thought it should have been a settled issue. China's industry was dead as was most of their people, the only people who got killed in the chinese response were in the far east and well the soviets started it.

But they wanted to make sure what remained of china was under the direct control of the Kremlin and so the war continued, and we Ukranians, the baltics, and so many others just had no desire to fight in that war. Ethnic russians got the best gear, the newest clothing the tanks and other things and we got second hand stuff.

It only took a few years before some one reached out to the various chinese resistance groups before unofficial deals were worked out. Essentially we didn't want to be there, didn't want to fight, and they wanted to save ammo. Deals of leave us alone we leave you alone, that sort of thing.

Political commisars were brought in and man we hated them, so deals got altered we would purposefully go into enemy territory and then when gun fire happened we would step away from the comisar and point at him, or the officer in some cases. Let the chinese snipe them and then continue with the patrol pointedly not actually looking for the enemy.

This happened a lot the KGB started sending in people to ferrit out traitors but as the war dragged on we knew who they were. Too well fed, too clean, and well same arrangement. Yes our families were threatened but at some point we just stopped caring and just wanted the people who made our lives hell to go away.

Over time the collaberation grew, as more conscripts felt the same way. Weather it was resentment, or personal vengence, ideology, or just getting disgusted as we cleaned up another russian force massacre. More and more of us just got fed up with it, discreetly giving the chinese inteligence. Looking the other way, and in return they fragged any officer we disliked and left us in peace.

Roll this over for decades all of the hardcore communists? The political officers the people who enforced their sick ideology on the rest of us? They died more and more, the informants, the KGB, the whole aperatus slowly exterminated by a thousand cuts as the rest of us grew to hate them they grew weaker.

As the 80s dragged on we started to realize just how much weaker they were. The system of lies could no longer keep itself going and the moment of freedom was coming.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
It all could happened in OTL /except free Poland/ - if Kissinger do not saved Mao.
In long run,war and defeat in 1969 would be better even for China.

And killing agents on battlefield - it would certainly happen,especially if soviet was stupid enough to send units made from minorities.
 

ATP

Well-known member
@Cherico ,what about Tibet and uygurs in this TL ? would they get their own states?
And who would rule Chine? KMN,maoists,somebody else ?

Would Poland reclaim some territories when soviet falls,or not?
Those poles certainly was not PC,so if they could retake Wilno and Lwów,they would do so.
Certainly they could try take Konigsberg - soviets had no right to that territory.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
@Cherico ,what about Tibet and uygurs in this TL ? would they get their own states?
And who would rule Chine? KMN,maoists,somebody else ?

Would Poland reclaim some territories when soviet falls,or not?
Those poles certainly was not PC,so if they could retake Wilno and Lwów,they would do so.
Certainly they could try take Konigsberg - soviets had no right to that territory.

They have their own states.

The Dala lama became a consitutional monarch and Uygurs became a communist state because the Soviets simply couldn't press for a leadership in the south because it would have fucked their logisitics, same reason why they let southern china be a thing.
 
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Peter Bugrov- Russian

Cherico

Well-known member
Peter Bugrov- Russian


The war, was the thing that destroyed the soviet union.

More and more men were drafted into a forever war, our allies well more correctly to say subject people were drained of resources against their will, every thing slowly got worse and worse. Televisions? We stopped making those, cars? They got worse every metric of life slowly got worse from food to housing because it all went into a war that none of us asked for or wanted. We all saw it all knew it and all resented it.

And entire generation sent to die in an increasingly hopless war and we knew and understood that we were being lied to that everyone hated us, and we died in ever larger numbers and lost more tanks, more chopers, more everything. The great stockpiles of weapons we built were ground down we were ground down.

The Famine of the 80s was the breaking point, too many people taken away from the farms, to many tractors that were too old to function so many things that were just breaking down, and the west just wasn't willing to bail us out because all of those left wing socialist voices that ran cover for us? We couldn't fund them and they got quiter and quieter as more attrocities in china got out. So when the hunger hit they were not willing to give us anything for free.

But their president Regan was willing to allow food shipments in exchange for the destruction of our nuclear weapons arsenal confirmed destruction, and quite a few times we had no choice but to hand them over for destruction. Starwars and other programs proved to be too much for us to compete with them globally and deal with china was too much.

By 89, people in berlin realized we were too weak to have a hold over east germany and they brought down the wall, once that happened it was like a damn had broken. Pretty much all of the former eastern pact just left their communist governments collapsing either by force or just giving up.

A grand Soviet was called up to talk about it, only by then people were just so exausted that the ethnic soviet republics just declared seccession en mass, and with the bulk of the army in china, with every one so exausted there was nothing to be done to stop it. The leadership at the time just meakly accepted this and declared an end to the war, and end to the soviet union. It was over.

The remaining hardliners thought otherwise and they killed him.

So I was their guarding this men as the new leader of the coup gave a big speech said how he was going to return us to the era of true communism of stalin and blamed the army's cowardice for losing china for losing europe for losing the soviet union. He talked about needed purges of the veterans for disloyality to the union about an era of purfication.

All of us guards were veterans of that war I had spent 10 years in that nightmare world and we just got scared and angry we were going to be thrown under the bus and purged and put in siberia and we felt so helpless and afraid. And then I heard Gunfire. Sasha was a comrad of mine a quiet man and he had just blown the blowhards brains out.

"KILL THEM BEFORE THEY KILL YOU!"

It was if a spell had been broken, we were the ones with the guns and if these men survived we were all going to die, we massacred them on live telivison. All around the country veterans and current military realized it was either us or the commies. It was spontanious and nationwide. The civilian population didn't stop us.

We gathered forces after the massacre and headed to the KGB building to kill the most dangerous men they had because for us it was now victory or death. They didn't see us coming we massacred them, I remember taking on man and shooting him in the leg and then grabbing him and smashing his head against the desk over and over again. Just filled with hate just wanting this man who helped make me suffer suffer as well.

I killed him slowly, and I grabbed his ID, Vladamir something, I spit on him and his destroyed head and moved to join the slaugher all around the country fellow vets and serving personal all understood the same thing kill or be killed. The commies tried to rally the people but the people didn't care.

In many cases they would reveil their hiding spots or join in the slaughter, we had numbers, training and all of the weapons it all ended in a few months. We ordered all of the commies killed, all of them none of them could be allowed to live they were simply too dangerous.

When it was over we looked around, the west wanted us to put in a civilian government to have elections, but then we actually thought about it. Why?

Every disaster Russia had was done by civilian leadership.

The czars, the soviets they were all civilians, no fuck that they had their chance and it had just led to unending terror. We declared a military junta. Only men who had served were allowed to have a voice in the government were allowed to have positions. Civilians the people who had never been tested who had never fought?

They were to stay out of the affairs of state, their meddling had created too many problems as is. And the world we created was fairer, freerer and more prosperous then the nightmare we ended. Does it have its problems? Yes.

But peoples bellies are filled, and as long as you do not attempt to overthrow the state you are left in peace. A far better deal then the endless meddling of the soviet.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Something like that could happen.But those commies asked for it - never say that you purge veterans when they hear that and have rifles.
Starship trooper style goverment - it would be better then democracy,or at least not worst.Pity,that we could not use it.
@Cherico ,i forget ask about Kurdistan and Armenia - did they become free from soviets ?
 
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Cherico

Well-known member
Something like that could happen.But those commies asked for it - never say that you purge veterans when they hear that and have rifles.
Starship trooper style goverment - it would be better then democracy,or at least not worst.Pity,that we could not use it.
@Cherico ,i forget ask about Kurdistan and Armenia - did they become free from soviets ?
After the collapse yes.
 
Prussian

Cherico

Well-known member
Karl Zundel- Prussian


Most of east Prussia was handed over to the Polish puppet state, some of it was handed over to a Lithania. You would think that being the birth place of the nazi party, that the soviets would have moved us all to east germany. That wasn't the case quite simply put when one looks back upon it, the soviets had taken too many casulities during the war.

What ever plans they had of repopulating the baltics with russians? Well doing that would mean less russians some where else. The few germans that hadn't been able to escape? They were kept in Koinsburg, the soviets took former nazi's and their families the survivors and interned them in prussia what was left of it and it was turned into a part of the USSR. But we were not a republic no Prussia what was left of it became a gulag maybe the largest one in the world.

Food was always of the lowest quality growing up, we worked long hours under soviet masters, rape was common for both men and women, and we hated we hated so much, essentially we were slaves allowed to learn skilled crafts just to serve our masters better punishments came often and were collective, and the russians were cruel.

We were not allowed to have weapons, even our kitchen knives could only be of a certain length and blunted, we dressed in the same grey clothing, not permitted radios, not permitted anything except techical books on how to fix things. Things got worse the food what little of it became worse, the clothing more threadbare, but there were fewer soviets in the streets watching us. We didn't know about the war.

They didn't want us to know about it, and we were not allowed things like radio, or televisions, and were not allowed newspapers. All we knew is they wanted us to work harder, all we knew is that there were fewer hands holding the whips. The walls around Prussia kept us in, the port was controlled and patrolled and we were not allowed to get too close to the shores. We were the last to find out about the collapse.

The guards of our prisons simply left, and we had no idea why, but we were afraid and grew hungry so on make shift rafts we explored the baltics, and found that the world had changed. Poland we had this idea in our heads that they were a foolish people most likely poorer than ourselves.

We found their cities bathed in lights while we lived by candlelight with old lamps reminding us of better days power only existed for factories making things for our masters. The soviet union had fallen the baltic republics had broken free. There was talk of reuniting germany and we put forward a request.

"No."

Both east and west blamed us for the war, blamed us for the nazi's blamed us for everything. They treated us fellow germans as something dirty something contaminated. They did not want us, we were weak and thought we would be annexed by a balt or the Poles, but found that they didn't want anything to do with us either.

We were saved by our own tainted reputation the untouchables of europe. We asked to join Nato to find out request blocked by the Germans. We tried to join the EU, and while the Poles were willing to consider provivisonal membership the Germans said no. We became the untouchables of europe, trapped under a legacy of madness and contained by aging walls build with slave labor.

Its still better then our lives under the soviets dispite it all.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Something which could happen.Poor dudes,but - better them then us.Somebody must be blamed for german crimes,and since it could not be Poland this time,prussia would do.

In normal world germans would be blamed for german crimes,but it not going to happen.Just like not happened in OTL.
P.S @Cherico ,why Poland joined EU ? and is it as fucked as OTL,or normal ?
 
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