Poland's Constitutional Tribunal bans eugenic abortion as unconstitutional.

Tryglaw

Well-known member
Just look up Poland + Abortion, but here's some quality yellow journalism from CNN:


Quote:

"The move to further restrict abortion had been pursued by Poland's populist government for months, and has raised alarm among women's rights campaigners and human rights watchdogs."

"The Constitutional Court's Thursday ruling marked the first change to Polish abortion law since 1993, but comes after a years-long effort from the country's right-wing government to curtail access to terminations."

Nope, they've been avoiding the topic and kicking it down the line every time it came up and every way they could, to the point of alienating some of their base over promises being ignored, and in stark contrast to cases where when they really wanted to, laws were written and passed literally overnight, while abortion issue was "in the freezer" for one full term and a good chunk of the subsequent term as Law & Justice rules for second term in row by the way. The issue was forced by law suit by pro-life groups not part of L&J (which are pseudo-conservatives anyway).
If L&J had it their way the Holy Status Quo would have remained untouched.

"The ruling Law and Justice Party (PiS) has placed anti-abortion rhetoric at the heart of its socially conservative agenda, and attempted to pass a bill banning abortions due to fetal defects in the early weeks of the coronavirus pandemic."

Aaand rhetoric only. They rule for second term now, for the first term they had majority in both chambers of the Parliament plus their own President. For the second term, majority in lower chamber of Parliament, and 48 out of 100 Senators in the upper, plus the President.
If they actually wanted to push through changes, they could do so at any time.

What there was in truth, was some debate as the L&J did everything they could to do nothing at all and kick the bucket down the line.

For ther record, not one political party that has held power in Poland offered to settle this democratically, by national referendum. Which would be interesting since shrill feminists (lauded by MSM) aside, younger generations seem to favour pro-life stance more and more then pro-choice.

A more balanced (amazingly enough, since most mainstream just repeats the same few slogans over and over again) report is here:


And an Orthodox view:

 
I'm sorry, but one of the times when I think one should get an abortion is when the fetus has obvious birth defects; alongside rape, and when carrying to term threatens the life of the mother. I do not agree with this decision, and I hope something like it never happens here in America.
 
I'm sorry, but one of the times when I think one should get an abortion is when the fetus has obvious birth defects; alongside rape, and when carrying to term threatens the life of the mother. I do not agree with this decision, and I hope something like it never happens here in America.
So just because a person is missing an arm, they should be killed?
 
This...seems entirely in-line with what I know and have heard of pro-life philosophy and conceptualization of abortion, and approaching from that standpoint it's difficult to argue with--termination of a baby in the womb for physical or mental defects would be as morally reprehensible as doing so towards a person outside the womb--whether the justification was their poor quality of life or the burden it would place on others or the country to accept them. That's monstrous, obviously-evil stuff that can and has been condemned for decades by civilized societies.

Of course, if a 'baby in the womb' under that conception is interchanged with 'fetus' and stripped of human rights which the mother does have under the pro-choice argument, then it's something to be decried.

I can't answer on that larger question. I wish I could and am probably a moral coward for not being able to, but I just don't know. I can only offer the slim, cowardly answer that is technology will likely eventually forego the conversation. But until then, someone's rights will ineviteably be compromised in either opposing answer to this question and that's...heavy and depressing.

What I can say is that I'm...somewhat suspicious of Poland's abortion cases and their justification for them?
Around 98% of abortions in Poland had been conducted as a result of fetal defects, meaning the ruling bans virtually all termination procedures taking place in the country.
I heavily suspect that there weren't actually fetal defects in 98% of abortions committed in Poland unless there were just a tiny, tiny number of abortions in the country or 'fetal defects' was being used for a catch-all that was claimed in cases where it didn't apply.
 
I heavily suspect that there weren't actually fetal defects in 98% of abortions committed in Poland unless there were just a tiny, tiny number of abortions in the country or 'fetal defects' was being used for a catch-all that was claimed in cases where it didn't apply.
The former, we are talking about 1100 legal abortions per year.
 
I'm sorry, but one of the times when I think one should get an abortion is when the fetus has obvious birth defects; alongside rape, and when carrying to term threatens the life of the mother. I do not agree with this decision, and I hope something like it never happens here in America.
Speaking as someone who was born disabled, from birth defects I rather enjoy being alive.
 
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Speaking as someone who was born disabled, from birth defects I rather enjoy being this alive.
You spoke the opposite of someone on SB who rather be aborted then suffer from the genetic defects that made life miserable.
 
You spoke the opposite of someone on SB who rather be aborted then suffer from the genetic defects that made life miserable.
Unless you are so badly crippled you are like the man from Johnny got his gun you can still find enjoyment in life, and even do well for yourself. On the opposite side is death. Besides if that truly is such a concern for them, they could end themselves now, but at least then the choice would be made by them, rather than someone else deciding they are not fit to live.
 
I'm sorry, but one of the times when I think one should get an abortion is when the fetus has obvious birth defects; alongside rape, and when carrying to term threatens the life of the mother. I do not agree with this decision, and I hope something like it never happens here in America.
And what 'birth defects' would you abort for, even if the fetus is otherwise viable?

Down Syndrome, cleft palette, limb deformity, or only for ones where the child would not survive outside the womb?

Or should they/we be like the Spartan's, and just throw any 'defective' babies off the side of a cliff?

Where is the line?
 
So just because a person is missing an arm, they should be killed?
A fetus isn't a person; not yet at least. It has the potential to become one, and I'd rather not condemn anyone to such an existence.



Speaking as someone who was born disabled, from birth defects I rather enjoy being alive.
Speaking as someone who also was born disabled, I don't. I particularly don't enjoy what my being alive has cost my parents; not to mention what my brother cost them, who is even worse.



And what 'birth defects' would you abort for, even if the fetus is otherwise viable?

Down Syndrome, cleft palette, limb deformity, or only for ones where the child would not survive outside the womb?

Or should they/we be like the Spartan's, and just throw any 'defective' babies off the side of a cliff?

Where is the line?
That's a question only the parents can answer; because ultimately, dealing with any of those problems will be their responsibility until the child becomes an adult, and sometimes even beyond that.
 
What I can say is that I'm...somewhat suspicious of Poland's abortion cases and their justification for them?

I heavily suspect that there weren't actually fetal defects in 98% of abortions committed in Poland unless there were just a tiny, tiny number of abortions in the country or 'fetal defects' was being used for a catch-all that was claimed in cases where it didn't apply.

Well, it's like this:

- we have "very catholic" (the type trying to me more catholic then the Pope himself) doctors refusing to do abortions in public hospitals invoking "conscience clause"; strangely enough they have no problems to abort in their private clinics, "conscience" giving way to a thick envelope filled with portraits of Polish kings issued by National Bank of Poland.
And since you can't write "illegal abortion" on receipt, it's tax-free income.
(I knew of some cases myself, hilariously the doctor in question had a very pro-life public stance with family heavily involved in Church and pro-life movement. And boy did he charge a "hefty premium"... So I guess "pro-life" was about creating artificial scarcity to raise prices.)

- other option, doctor declares "miscarriage in progress", and "cleans up" the results. And since it's medically impossible to disprove, unless someone squeals, this being actually the case being completely optional...
 
At what point do you consider a fetus becoming a person?

Hmmm, once there is brain activity?

According do Saint Thomas Aquinas soul entered the body of the fetus after what, several weeks of pregnancy? I don't recall out of hand...
 
Certainly not before there's brain activity, and perhaps not even after. A person, in my view, is something that is capable of self-determination and complex thought; which a fetus is clearly not. Heck, I'm not quite sure an infant counts.
There are actually bioethicists that support killing infants at birth based on that reasoning. I'd be disappointed if they made it legal without honoring their intellectual ancestors by building altars to Moloch. They don't have to play loud drums to drown out the cries. They can play empowering, feminist rap about bringing down the Patriarchy.
 
There are actually bioethicists that support killing infants at birth based on that reasoning. I'd be disappointed if they made it legal without honoring their intellectual ancestors by building altars to Moloch. They don't have to play loud drums to drown out the cries. They can play empowering, feminist rap about bringing down the Patriarchy.
It was Peter Singer. He said, "Newborn human babies have no sense of their own existence over time. So killing a newborn baby is never equivalent to killing a person, that is, a being who wants to go on living. That doesn’t mean that it is not almost always a terrible thing to do. It is, but that is because most infants are loved and cherished by their parents, and to kill an infant is usually to do a great wrong to her or his parents."
So he advocates infanticide if the baby is unwanted.
 
Certainly not before there's brain activity, and perhaps not even after. A person, in my view, is something that is capable of self-determination and complex thought; which a fetus is clearly not. Heck, I'm not quite sure an infant counts.
The problem with that definition is that still includes a large number of adults as not being people. It doesn't take much to find people who can't think for themselves and won't no matter what you do.
 
So, in reaction to abortion getting restricted, feminists and radical left are throwing massive hissy fit, defacing churches with graffiti, disturbing the holy mass and similar.

Police reaction has been... restrained, supposedly to avoid media shitstorm.
(I'll have to ask my friends in the force when I get the opportunity to talk in private.)

Result? Right wingers, nationalists and football (soccer for you Americans) fans (well, hooligans too) formed defense units called National Brigades to safeguard churches.

Here we have feminists and soy boys advancing on a church in Poznan, then around 0:50 "oh shit, football fans" and heroically run away...


Soy boys, not so tough when they fight back, eh? In Warsaw:



In Warsaw, National Brigade backed by Legia Warszawa football fans forming a cordon in front of a church, blocking left wingers from vandalizing it.

ElSK-6hWMAIXpW9
 
So, in reaction to abortion getting restricted, feminists and radical left are throwing massive hissy fit, defacing churches with graffiti, disturbing the holy mass and similar.

Police reaction has been... restrained, supposedly to avoid media shitstorm.
(I'll have to ask my friends in the force when I get the opportunity to talk in private.)

Result? Right wingers, nationalists and football (soccer for you Americans) fans (well, hooligans too) formed defense units called National Brigades to safeguard churches.

Here we have feminists and soy boys advancing on a church in Poznan, then around 0:50 "oh shit, football fans" and heroically run away...


Soy boys, not so tough when they fight back, eh? In Warsaw:



In Warsaw, National Brigade backed by Legia Warszawa football fans forming a cordon in front of a church, blocking left wingers from vandalizing it.

ElSK-6hWMAIXpW9

Great for Poland.
 

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