Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[AmosTrask]

I read about some 16th sects which was accused of being jewish,forget name.Dunno if they were jewish,or not.
Ivan terrible/coward/ certainly killed all jews on territories taken from Poland,but...he genocided also Novogrod the Great full of russians,so

The last purges were carried out by the Soviet Union under Stalin. Lenin ordered him to stop and he shifted to "arresting traitors to the Union." The purges were having a negative effect on the Soviet Union's reputation overseas and causing unrest at home. Sending them to die in the Gulags. More openly after he won the power struggle and took control.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Ivan terrible/coward/ certainly killed all jews on territories taken from Poland,but...he genocided also Novogrod the Great full of russians,so.....

Genocide is not a good thing no matter who the target is.

 

[AmosTrask]

Well it turns out Germany's reticence in providing aid or acting is as much because of the state of their military and infrastructure as their pacifist leaning majority. Since the Berlin Wall and the Soviets fell Germany has severely undercut their military and military industries. They are almost as bad as Russia in their military preparedness. When the Zorn said I am to protect Germany, but the army I lead is bare handed. I wrote it off as hyperbole. It turns out it was not, the military in the last 30 years has been restructured to overseas peacekeeping missions with small units equipped with top of the line equipment.

The majority of the Bundeswehr have equipment from as old as 1988 with radios. Multiple scandals on the shortage of funding for equipment such as using repainted broom handles for machine-gun training, lack of standard waterproofed uniforms, field gear, shortage of ammunition and vehicles. There are only 200 active tanks of all types that includes training only models. It wasn't until Russia invaded Ukraine that their society realized saying we don't want to fight won't stop the Russians. Their shut down and repurposed most of their Cold War manufacturing. Even with their crash rebuilding at the moment they are running into a shortage of skilled labour as most of those emmigrated to the US and other countries. Yeesh. The Germans will need 5 to 10 years to begin fixing 30 years of neglect and active clawbacks in their military. All the aide given to Ukraine have yet to be replaced. They haven't even ordered any replacement yet. The procurement bureau is so slow, underfunded, undermanned and burdened by red tape Berlin put in place decades ago to divert funds to civic projects.

 

[Cherico]

Well it turns out Germany's reticence in providing aid or acting is as much because of the state of their military and infrastructure as their pacifist leaning majority. Since the Berlin Wall and the Soviets fell Germany has severely undercut their military and military industries. They are almost as bad as Russia in their military preparedness. When the Zorn said I am to protect Germany, but the army I lead is bare handed. I wrote it off as hyperbole. It turns out it was not, the military in the last 30 years has been restructured to overseas peacekeeping missions with small units equipped with top of the line equipment.

The majority of the Bundeswehr have equipment from as old as 1988 with radios. Multiple scandals on the shortage of funding for equipment such as using repainted broom handles for machine-gun training, lack of standard waterproofed uniforms, field gear, shortage of ammunition and vehicles. There are only 200 active tanks of all types that includes training only models. It wasn't until Russia invaded Ukraine that their society realized saying we don't want to fight won't stop the Russians. Their shut down and repurposed most of their Cold War manufacturing. Even with their crash rebuilding at the moment they are running into a shortage of skilled labour as most of those emmigrated to the US and other countries. Yeesh. The Germans will need 5 to 10 years to begin fixing 30 years of neglect and active clawbacks in their military. All the aide given to Ukraine have yet to be replaced. They haven't even ordered any replacement yet. The procurement bureau is so slow, underfunded, undermanned and burdened by red tape Berlin put in place decades ago to divert funds to civic projects.

to be fair to Germany no one wanted them to be a great military power again after the world wars. Pretty much all of europe was all on board Germany being a pacifist country, and then russia ruined it.

I think that's another reason why europe is so pissed at Russia right now, the contient had this idea in their head that they had progressed beyond things like war and agression that they had reached this ideal civilized state and Russia just showed them it was all a lie.

 

[Typhonis]

to be fair to Germany no one wanted them to be a great military power again after the world wars. Pretty much all of europe was all on board Germany being a pacifist country, and then russia ruined it.

I think that's another reason why europe is so pissed at Russia right now, the contient had this idea in their head that they had progressed beyond things like war and agression that they had reached this ideal civilized state and Russia just showed them it was all a lie.

Sort of like the UFP before they ran headlong into the Borg.

 

[lloyd007]

Sort of like the UFP before they ran headlong into the Borg.

Kinda, except a true analogue in that case would be if the Kremlin had managed to fulfill all its forward promises of military development i.e. they actually had 2500 T-14's in service, they had Su-57's in quantity and sufficient quality and so on such that they were ahead of even the USA in terms of a conventional land war against peer opponents since the USA had spent the last 20+ years restructuring to fight asymmetric warfare against Islamic terrorists.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Kinda, except a true analogue in that case would be if the Kremlin had managed to fulfill all its forward promises of military development i.e. they actually had 2500 T-14's in service, they had Su-57's in quantity and sufficient quality and so on such that they were ahead of even the USA in terms of a conventional land war against peer opponents since the USA had spent the last 20+ years restructuring to fight asymmetric warfare against Islamic terrorists.

Stop it, stop it, I can't take this much laughter.

 

[AmosTrask]

to be fair to Germany no one wanted them to be a great military power again after the world wars. Pretty much all of europe was all on board Germany being a pacifist country, and then russia ruined it.

I think that's another reason why europe is so pissed at Russia right now, the contient had this idea in their head that they had progressed beyond things like war and agression that they had reached this ideal civilized state and Russia just showed them it was all a lie.

Kind of. During the Cold War West Germany had 400000 men and 4000 top of the line tanks and thousands more in IFV, APC, and support vehicles. In the last 30 years that is down to 3000 vehicles total most of those being transports. 138,000 men, no ready reserves to speak of, no ammunition, a nonfunctional procurement bureau and of the 180 billion promised to the military in April 2022 only 10 billion has reached the military. Germany hasn't met NATO minimum standards since they started the drawdown in 1993.

 

[Marduk]

Kind of. During the Cold War West Germany had 400000 men and 4000 top of the line tanks and thousands more in IFV, APC, and support vehicles. In the last 30 years that is down to 3000 vehicles total most of those being transports. 138,000 men, no ready reserves to speak of, no ammunition, a nonfunctional procurement bureau and of the 180 billion promised to the military in April 2022 only 10 billion has reached the military. Germany hasn't met NATO minimum standards since they started the drawdown in 1993.

While 4k modern tanks are not realistic for a Germany sized country due to the large increase in relative cost of tanks since the age of electronics - however, 1/3 smaller South Korea maintains about 1800 modern MBTs and 500 old reserve ones. Even correcting for safer neighborhood, it would not be too much to ask Germany to maintain at least 1000-1500 tanks.

 

[AmosTrask]

While 4k modern tanks are not realistic for a Germany sized country due to the large increase in relative cost of tanks since the age of electronics - however, 1/3 smaller South Korea maintains about 1800 modern MBTs and 500 old reserve ones. Even correcting for safer neighborhood, it would not be too much to ask Germany to maintain at least 1000-1500 tanks.

Yes. Unfortunately they have 200. Only 30 - 40(hard to get verified numbers) of which are the latest model 2A6 and 2A7 Leopard, the rest ranging from the over 30 year old 2A4 with unupgraded monosteel hulls as trainers, to 2A5. All other Leopards having been scrapped or exported.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

While 4k modern tanks are not realistic for a Germany sized country due to the large increase in relative cost of tanks since the age of electronics - however, 1/3 smaller South Korea maintains about 1800 modern MBTs and 500 old reserve ones. Even correcting for safer neighborhood, it would not be too much to ask Germany to maintain at least 1000-1500 tanks.

South Korea has only produced 260 K2 tanks and 484 K1A1/A2 tanks, so “about 1800 modern MBTs" is only if you count the approximately 1000 non-updated K1 tanks, which date back to the late 1970s / early 1980s and are not remotely "modern" tanks.

 

[Zachowon]

Compared to the Norkies?

 

[AmosTrask]

Compared to the Norkies?

A horde of T-55 to T-72M, with a tiny number of T-80M. The monkey export versions

 

[ATP]

Kinda, except a true analogue in that case would be if the Kremlin had managed to fulfill all its forward promises of military development i.e. they actually had 2500 T-14's in service, they had Su-57's in quantity and sufficient quality and so on such that they were ahead of even the USA in terms of a conventional land war against peer opponents since the USA had spent the last 20+ years restructuring to fight asymmetric warfare against Islamic terrorists.

It was 2300 T.!$ and 220 Su 57 according to what i read,but you are right.
And....such TL could happen,if Clintons ruled from 2000 and Putin was real tsar.
I would even write it...if i were better writer.
@ShadowArxxy - you are right about genocide.But Ivan usually "only" drowned his victims/for example jews in captured city/ to made it cheaper,but Novogrod the Great was special case.
He tortured to death 1000 people per day,including womans and children.Sometimes did it personally.
To be honest,dunno why.

 

[AmosTrask]

It was 2300 T.!$ and 220 Su 57 according to what i read,but you are right.
And....such TL could happen,if Clintons ruled from 2000 and Putin was real tsar.
I would even write it...if i were better writer.
@ShadowArxxy - you are right about genocide.But Ivan usually "only" drowned his victims/for example jews in captured city/ to made it cheaper,but Novogrod the Great was special case.
He tortured to death 1000 people per day,including womans and children.Sometimes did it personally.
To be honest,dunno why.

To eliminate all challengers and to intimidate everyone. Also to satisfy his worsening mental depravity

 

[ATP]

To eliminate all challengers and to intimidate everyone. Also to satisfy his worsening mental depravity

Nobody challenged him anymore.....

 

[Marduk]

South Korea has only produced 260 K2 tanks and 484 K1A1/A2 tanks, so “about 1800 modern MBTs" is only if you count the approximately 1000 non-updated K1 tanks, which date back to the late 1970s / early 1980s and are not remotely "modern" tanks.

I did. Why?
Still more modern than updated Leopard 1's and M60's that some places keep as reserves, and with upgrade potential on top of that.
Even year wise, not much different from many countries using their Leopard 2's in the A4 variant, which dates back to 1985, often as their good model rather than reserve.

 

[Zachowon]

A horde of T-55 to T-72M, with a tiny number of T-80M. The monkey export versions

Oh I know.
The South Koreans may have less tanks but have better tanks

 

[Bacle]

 

[DarthOne]

to be fair to Germany no one wanted them to be a great military power again after the world wars. Pretty much all of europe was all on board Germany being a pacifist country, and then russia ruined it.

I think that's another reason why europe is so pissed at Russia right now, the contient had this idea in their head that they had progressed beyond things like war and agression that they had reached this ideal civilized state and Russia just showed them it was all a lie.

Hey if it gets Europe to stop being an economic zone for economic migrants and actually give a damn about its own native populations and cultures, that is fine by me.