Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

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Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
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Okay; so then do we get to scrutinize and criticize Ukraine again when the conflict is over, or is that just never going to be allowed so long as Russia exists? I mean, I get it; there are no biolabs in Ukraine, fine. But what if they decide to put some there later on; are you going to accuse people who talk about it of being Russian sympathizers, and do the establishment's groundwork for them in silencing dissent?
No, I'm all for corruption purges as part of rooting out Russian agents and bad actors in Ukraine, oversight with aid and weapons that are sent over, oversight of any future 'biodefense' programs in Ukraine (and in our allies/partners/suppliers in general after Wuhan) and oversight of reconstruction efforts once Russia is forced back across the internationally recognized borders.

Ukraine is not some angel of a nation, but I can separate out different issues and understand Ukraine was basically only second to Russia for corruption for a long time. This invasion, and the fighting since 2014, is happening in large part because that corruption got so bad the average person in Ukraine got fed up with it and tossed out the Russia stooges who perpetuated the corrupt Soviet-style cycle in Ukraine after the Wall fell.
It depends on *what* you're scrutinizing and criticizing, and whether you're parroting insultingly obvious Russky propaganda to do so.
This too.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
No, I'm all for corruption purges as part of rooting out Russian agents and bad actors in Ukraine, oversight with aid and weapons that are sent over, oversight of any future 'biodefense' programs in Ukraine (and in our allies/partners/suppliers in general after Wuhan) and oversight of reconstruction efforts once Russia is forced back across the internationally recognized borders.

Ukraine is not some angel of a nation, but I can separate out different issues and understand Ukraine was basically only second to Russia for corruption for a long time. This invasion, and the fighting since 2014, is happening in large part because that corruption got so bad the average person in Ukraine got fed up with it and tossed out the Russia stooges who perpetuated the corrupt Soviet-style cycle in Ukraine after the Wall fell.

This too.
Fair enough. It's just something I worry about the establishment attempting; using the conflict with Russia to get away with all manner of bullhonky, as they did during the Cold War.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Fair enough. It's just something I worry about the establishment attempting; using the conflict with Russia to get away with all manner of bullhonky, as they did during the Cold War.
See, that I understand, and I am all for making sure the powers in DC are not able to use Russia as an excuse to pull a Patriot Act 2.0 on us.

However, I also understand that the best way to keep the Dems from being able to pull that sort of shit was to not make Ukraine a wedge issue at all, once Putin's force's moved in on Feb 24th.

Putin put out the biolab bullshit rather shortly before the invasion, because he knew it would stir shit domestically in the US and slow/complicate a response in DC.

However what no one counted on was Zelensky saying "I need ammo, not a ride."; that changed the whole tone of the international response, and is arguably the exact moment this war became unwinnable for Russia.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
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@Terthna oh boy. I am about to blow your fucking mind.
Ukrainian SBU is currently conducting searches in Kolomoyskiy's residence. For those unaware, Kolomoyskiy is one of Ukraine's richest and most influental oligarchs, though his fortune has been steadily depleting since 2016
Additionally, Deputy Head of MODs material acquisition Khmelnytskiy, ex-deputy MOD Shapovalov and COO of UkrOboronProm have all been declared as suspects for misappropriation of state funds as reported by Ukrainian Truth. Confirmation from authorithies is currently pending at this time

Head of People's Servant (Zelenskiy's party) party Mr.Arakhmiya announced today that the entire Ukrainian Customs Service leadership will be fired today
His original post in TG, for today following events were announced:

1. Searches in Tax agencies
2. Issuing of suspect notices to leadership of MOD (Already covered here:Discord - A New Way to Chat with Friends & Communities)
3. Kolomoyskiy searches (Covered just above and under this post)
4. A whole chain of undisclosed investigative actions
5. Avakov searches (Ex-Minister of Internal Affairs highly suspected in plotting of major corruption schemes)
6. Stolyar searches (One of Ukraine's sports figurheads)
7. Firing of the entire Ukrainian Customs leadership
Additionally, Mr.Arakhmiya confirmed that Kolomoyskiy's search warrant was granted on grounds of his involvment in corruption scehemes within UkrNafta
Searches of Kyiv's State Tax Agency branch by Ukrainian State Investigate Bureau (Ukrainian FBI) yielded results as head of the branch Ms. Oksana Datiy was found in possesion of a significant amount of undeclared monetary sum, all in cash, including a major amount of foreign currency. All and all, 158k USD, 2.2k EUR and 530k UAH have been seized. Besides cash, she was also found in possesion of luxury jewelry, watches, and two German cars with total worth exceeding 150k USD. On top of this already big list of undeclared goods, she's also been found to own 3 flats in Kyiv worth over 1 Million USD total with another house located near capital. Safe to say, she's expected to lose her job and face a lengthy prison sentence, though getting a conviction from Ukrainian courts is a challenge in its own way.
СБУ заявляє про докази співпраці експрезидента «Мотор Січі» з бойовиками «ДНР» SBU confirms and for the first time is officialy willing to present the public with proof of Motor Sich's Director cooperation with DPR/LPR militants as well as Russian Federation. Mr. Bohuslayev was caught in act as his phone was tapped during one of his many conversations between himself and co-organisations of his parts and engines transfer schemes from Ukraine to Russia. One of said phone taps was released by SBU today. Boguslayev was also found in possesion of Russian medals awarded to him. His Pro-Russian views weren't a secret for anyone, though SBU was unwilling to do anything about his clear involvment with the Russians until after the war has already begun. In the meantime, a huge percentile of Russian helicopter force is running on engines produced in Motor Sich helicopter plant.
SBU confirms that they've managed to seize proof of coruption scemes within both UkrNafta and UkrtratNafta which involved tax evasion and illegal appropriation of funds totalling 40 Billion UAH (Over 1 Billion USD) during their search of Kolomoyskiy's residence, I'll go deeper into this later today if I'll have time to expand upon it
As of now, it is confirmed that the entire Ukrainian Custom Service leadership has been releaved of their duties. Head of Service Vyacheslav Demchenko, first deputy Aleksand Shuckiy and another deputy Ruslan Cherkaskiy have all been fired.
here is Ukraine rooting our corruption.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
I don't think we're really disagreeing here, just interpreting the same fact base slightly differently.

The Polish A4 Leopards would be additional reserves to the T-72s I mentioned, though. The active duty forces are the Leo 2 PLs and Abrams SEP v3s, both of which are state of the art updates.

As far as I'm aware, Germany only has A4s left as warehoused reserves because they haven't been able to sell off all their massive Cold War supply of over two thousand of the things. A6 is the oldest they consider to be frontline-worthy; they have a number of A5s still in nominally active service, but these are only used as OPFOR training tanks.
The T-72's were the reserves, the Leo 2's of all variants and PT-91 were the line tanks before the war.
Meanwhile many countries like Norway use A4's as their main variant still.
> Vatnik!
> this is just a crazy conspiracy theories

just casual dismissal and denial.
for shame.

you guys are so invested in defeating russia that you willfully bury any wrongdoing involving anyone else.
as if russia somehow has a monopoly on doing bad stuff.
>wrongdoing
It's fucking crude bullshit not a wrongdoing, that is repeated for so long and is so ridiculous that is not even worth any effort in engaging, only contempt for those who repeat it.

> dismisses all evidence all at once
> demands more, different evidence
> posts zero evidence of his own
> refutes none of the individual pieces of evidence posted

you are not coming across as very credible.
I didn't even bother digging into the original post.
don't have the time for yet another deep dive.

but on one side we have people posting a bunch of evidence in a systemic manner.
and on the other side we have hysterical screeches of "vatnik" or casual dismissal of "BS conspiracy theory"

How about you try refuting the already posted evidence.
Ok, want to play conspiracy games, fine i've linked my rebuttal - Russia made Covid, so obviously Ukraine couldn't have. It has more evidence than your theory, even some events outside of USA and China fit into it.

Enjoy being at the business end of "it takes far more effort to disprove bullshit than to make it up" principle,.
Also evidence my ass, random bullshit claims and cheeky attempts at activating almonds do not constitute evidence of any sort.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
Ok, want to play conspiracy games, fine i've linked my rebuttal - Russia made Covid, so obviously Ukraine couldn't have. It has more evidence than your theory, even some events outside of USA and China fit into it.
1. where did you link it? I don't see the link.

2. you are strawmanning. I didn't say ukraine made covid.
see:
I wouldn't at all be surprised if the bidens were involved in ukrainian biolabs doing shady shit. as they have been involved in so much other shady shit.
this doesn't mean russia are somehow "the good guys".
this does not mean anyone pointing this out is a "vatnik"
this is not even claiming that ukraine was in any way shape or form linked to covid-19.
I have not seen a single mention in the original post by darthone that "ukraine did covid-19".
Which makes your position a strawman.

what darthone posted is that there are some involvements in bioweapon research in ukraine. and possible blackmail. as well as a coverup

As per the veritas video I posted. Pfizer director of research says that pfizer is doing directed evolution experiments where they develop new variants of covid using monkeys, then develop a vaccine for the new variants they themselves developed. "preemptively".
saying covid is a cash cow and will remain so for many years.

He also believes that covid-19 escaped a wuhan lab doing that very same thing.

pfizer operates biolabs across the world. including china (but not that one specific biolab from which covid-19 escaped. different ones), ukraine, usa, and dozens of others.
pfizer is not the only international phrama company that does so.

And the bidens are involved, as they have their fingers in many pies. They are a corrupt crime family.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
1. where did you link it? I don't see the link.

2. you are strawmanning. I didn't say ukraine made covid.
see:
Boo, shady shit that's not even shady (yeah, great idea to keep around freezers full of disease samples in the middle of a war where ridiculous amounts of heavy ordnance are thrown around, what could go wrong, better let them stay intact for the sake of not looking shady, lol), with no specifics or evidence. Russia does shady shit all day every day by that standard.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
Boo, shady shit that's not even shady (yeah, great idea to keep around freezers full of disease samples in the middle of a war where ridiculous amounts of heavy ordnance are thrown around, what could go wrong, better let them stay intact for the sake of not looking shady, lol)
1. The biden shady shit in Ukraine was before the war started.
As mentioned in the articles linked earlier, they were referencing Hunter Biden's laptop

2. destroying disease samples now in 2022 is not the shady part.
the financial deals with bidens years ago, as well as what they were researching all those years were.
Russia does shady shit all day every day by that standard.
yes. yes they do.

Russia is a super corrupt country ruled by a literal ex-KGB guy who seized power via doing shady shit.

But this is a whataboutism. The suggestion that anyone who finds any fault with the saintly saint of goodly goodness ukraine, is somehow an Enemy... a Vatnik, a Putin fanboi. An absurd position to have.

As far as I can tell. the things deathblade linked suggest that the bidens were involved in some unethetical bio-research in ukraine years ago. And that Zelenski is deleting all evidence of that as a favor for biden.

Some of the articles linked suggested Ukraine is blackmailing Biden. which I think is stupid. The press is more than willing to cover up everything for him already. And they have too much of a mutually beneficial relationship with all that graft going into the pocket of american oligarchs.
Other articles simply say USA is involved because the biden's are personally invested in the country.

edit: and as far as I can tell. none of those articles actually outright accuse ukraine as being the source of covid-19

In regards to who actually did covid-19... the original covid-19 escaped by incompetence from the chinese wuhan lab.

Some of the mutated strains that were released since then have came from the "gain of function" / "directed evolution" research of some big pharma companies across the world. such as pfizer. (as per confession extracted by project veritas)

Regardless of whether it was released or not. many countries across the world have big pharma owned labs performing gain of function research that must be halted. because it is both a crime against humanity and also extremely stupid
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Ukraine is also a foreign country FYI. Yet for some people this is getting more of their attention than any foreign relations controversies like with, say, Mexico, that affect Americans far more, orders of magnitude more.


Pretty absolutely sure that the "vatnik accusations" real and imagined have started as a result the "discussion", rather than the other way around. As the people insisting on that "discussion" had pretty clear and open intent in it, and it fell on the wrong side of the "cui bono" test.


Your bullshit is a crime against humanity too, spare me the over the top dramatics.

Well duh. Statements don't count for much.

For the most part america and Mexico actually have good relations, the only real sticking point these days is illegal immigration and the cartels.
 

Megadeath

Well-known member
By this standard the majority of the world supports Russia.
I would hardly say "majority."
2754px-United_Nations_General_Assembly_resolution_ES-11_L.5_vote.svg.png

 

Cherico

Well-known member

if were going by pure population and using everything that isn't green then your pretty much at the majority of the worlds population.

Indias's 1.3 billion china's 1.4 billion add the stans and a few african countries and your either at the majority number or pretty close to it. Of course that's if you go purely with us or against us which is a rediculous standard in international politics. Really the only countries that matter by a realistic standard are the ones in red and that's just kind of sad.
 

Megadeath

Well-known member
if were going by pure population and using everything that isn't green then your pretty much at the majority of the worlds population.

Indias's 1.3 billion china's 1.4 billion add the stans and a few african countries and your either at the majority number or pretty close to it. Of course that's if you go purely with us or against us which is a rediculous standard in international politics. Really the only countries that matter by a realistic standard are the ones in red and that's just kind of sad.
It'd be weird to go by population to weight decisions made at the national level. I guess it makes sense if you think that the government's are at least generally representative of their population, but I'd say that for quite a few of the red and yellow one's that's probably a bit of a big assumption.
I was thinking more in terms of the number of countries that each decided one way or another:
"143 in favour, 5 against and 35 abstaining."
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
1. "What biden did in ukraine" != "what ukraine did"
2. Please prey tell, what did biden do in mexico?
See? You say this is about America and shit, yet you don't even track this "boring" stuff happening in the neighboring semi-failed state that's far bigger and more important from the perspective of direct interest. As it turns out that it's a bigger version of whatever you may care about in the story about Hunter's shady dealings in Ukraine, while also closer to home.
And that's without even getting into the obvious migration stuff:
No, literally the very first reply you had to the story being brought up was

and this is the only reason I even got into the argument in the first place.
The story is old and more pointless in hindsight than before (if scary secret bioweapons were made there, why are Russians still being killed with bullets, not germs?), also congratulations on admitting that you are defending outright bullshit just for the sake of contrarianism.

====

are you... are you seriously defending bioweapons?
Your bullshit is bioweapon grade.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Russia is waging a war of conquest, which they fully admit to, yet there are still people grasping at any straw, as if this will somehow convince other people that we should just leave Russia to do whatever it wants. It seems that you'll even grasp at straws that have already been used and failed to have the desired effect. :rolleyes:
But you see X.
It is a globalist war and mighty trad and based Russia is fighting that!!!!
I mean, fighting with minorities, mass conscription, and let's uh, nit focus on the rape to get anywhere in the military because men on men sex isn't trad or based. But raping other men is perfectly fine as long as it is Ina based and trad country.

Funnily, it seems that unless the US is attacked or invaded we should sit on our hands and watch the world burn to some people.

Hell maybe even the destruction of Guam wouldn't phase that side of the right
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
This does seem to be the fundamental issue, doesn't it? Many on the Right, possessed by a cynicism that blossomed during Covid, can only see this through the prism of "globalists trying to control the world" (an amusing reversal of how the left can only see the world in terms of race and power structures) instead of what this actually is: the Ukrainian War of Independence.

Trouble is, if they accepted that premise, they'd have to conclude this has been centuries in the making and doesn't much correspond to ramblings about the WEF. Do that and then the Ukrainian cause becomes oddly sympathetic.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
This does seem to be the fundamental issue, doesn't it? Many on the Right, possessed by a cynicism that blossomed during Covid, can only see this through the prism of "globalists trying to control the world" (an amusing reversal of how the left can only see the world in terms of race and power structures) instead of what this actually is: the Ukrainian War of Independence.

Trouble is, if they accepted that premise, they'd have to conclude this has been centuries in the making and doesn't much correspond to ramblings about the WEF. Do that and then the Ukrainian cause becomes oddly sympathetic.
Umm ok? It is the war of Ukrainian independence great for Ukraine. Why should I care or support them that much? Many of the same people would be asking the same if Palestinians rose up and claimed they were fighting a war of independence. Maybe Ukraine is justified in it's war, but why should America play hero of the world and always fight for the good guy? That's not how international realationships work, nations look out for their own interest. You say the worst case scenario is a new Russian empire. So what, America had a good relationship with the Russian empire in the 1800's. They never tried to have colonies in the New world which would threaten us.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
See? You say this is about America and shit, yet you don't even track this "boring" stuff happening in the neighboring semi-failed state that's far bigger and more important from the perspective of direct interest.
See what? How do you expect me to track it?
The tech cartels and MSM work double time to memory hole all the biden crimes.
I can't just meditate hard to get information out of the aether.

I explicitly asked you to tell me what happened in mexico because I actually DO in fact care.
Anyways, thank you for the links. I will add mexico crimes to the growing list

And yes, I am in fact more concerned about biden crimes in mexico than ukraine. because it is right across the border. Wouldn't surprise me if bidens are involved in the recent spate of cartel action in the USA side of the border

But your position of "if you do not help memory hole biden crimes in ukraine then you are a traitor vatnik who supports putin and also do not care about biden's crimes in mexico" is just frankly absurd.
also congratulations on admitting that you are defending outright bullshit just for the sake of contrarianism.
what? where did you even get that from?
 
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