Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Lord Sovereign]

The Prequels were deeply flawed films, as George Lucas gets carried away with himself quite consistently. I get what he was trying to go for with the dialogue (theatrical Shakespearean stuff) but it just didn't work. Nevertheless, the films expanded the universe and the lore, crafted character arcs that did make at least some sense (ah, the wonders of knowing where you're going) and had a half decent plot. These were films made with passion.

 

[Skallagrim]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. I didn't like the prequels, and I largely agree with RLM on them, though I'm not nearly as nitpicky as they are. But I do put a lot of it down to Lucas, simply because no one was around to challenge him on anything the way that there had been during the OT. And having seen his ideas for the ST, I don't think that would have represented an improvement. I started a whole other thread over this, actually.

The prequels work as a story. While there's loads of things I personally would have done differently, the only objective problems of real importance are A) that Lucas wrote the script and B) that the CGI was over-used and (esp. in the first two) just wasn't up to snuff yet.

Those are very much Lucas-isms, of course. He's not a good script-writer, and he's always a bit ahead of the curve... sometimes to his own detriment. (Prequel CGI wasn't good enough, for instance, but the lessons learned there made ILM the go-to guys for great CGI in dozens upon dozens of films released over the following decade.) Lucas understands narrative arcs. So using a story he wrote, but having someone else develop it into a screenplay, would probably work out well.

As far as his ideas for the sequels go... which ones? He had different ideas at different times. There's the ideas he alluded to in 1979-1989, there's his ideas as he noted them down in 2010, and there's the 50-page treatment he ultimately wrote with Arndt and offered to Disney. From what we know, there's a lot on continuity in his overall ideas, but the plan definitely evolved. We don't know all that much about his plans, but I've done some "detective work" to figure out what he planned at which point (and which ideas were definitely dropped/changed at which points). I'll copy-paste the list of things we know about his ultimate 2012 plans in a separate post.

It's not enough to get any real sense of what the story would be like, but it doesn't sound like it's somehow terrible. Certainly not somehow worse than (or equally bad as) what we got.

 

[Skallagrim]

Here's what we can actually put together about Lucas's final plans for the sequels, i.e. the contents of the 2012 treatment (c. 50 pages) that he offered to Disney when he sold his company. This omits all the older ideas that we can prove or logically infer were definitely dropped by that point. Everything listed here is based exclusively on things Lucas himself said, or things that people close to him (e.g. Mark Hamill) have revealed he told them.

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— The sequels would be the third part of a three-generation saga (the father's generation in the prequels, the son's generation in the OT, and the grandchildren in the sequels). The grandchildren on Anakin Skywalker (a.k.a. children of the OT heroes) would have starring roles in the story. The OT heroes would have supporting roles; the next generation would take centre stage.

— The story would be set at least 30 years after RotJ. The main protagonists would be in their twenties.

— That main protagonist would be Taryn: "a young woman becoming a Jedi", described as "a loner, hothead, gear-headed, badass". Given the notion of the children of the OT heroes taking centre stage (and knowing that Arndt was the one who later made the character into a "nobody"), it's likely that she was envisioned as one of the grandchildren of Anakin Skywalker.

— The deuteragonist would be a character later named Sam. It's unclear whether that was also his name in Lucas's plans. He's described as "pure charisma"; he was envisioned as a young, charismatic Han Solo type. He was pictured as white in concept art.

— There was also going to be a son of the OT heroes (either of Luke, or of Han and Leia) who would be seduced to the Dark Side during the story. He would be named "Skyler".

— Taryn would be accompanied by a small droid. Too small to be operated by a person inside. Lucas planned for this to be a real, fully mechanic robot. (Says Lucas: "I thought it might be cute to have Artoo just the way he is and then have a little one so that Artoo becomes a sort of big brother and has the little one always hanging around. He's a little antagonist who's sort of bugging Artoo all of the time.")

— R2-D2 and C-3PO showed up together in Episode VII.

— Han and Leia would still be together and married, not separated.

— Luke would be the father in the sequels, rather than the son (as he had been in the OT). More generally speaking, he would be the "Obi-Wan" of the sequels, passing down the light-sabre to the next generation. (It's unclear whether being "the father" is meant to be literal. Back in the '80s, Lucas explicitly planned for Luke to have started a romantic relationship with a female love interest at some point after RotJ, and there would be at least one child of Luke Skywalker in the sequels. Whether that was still the plan is unknown, though. So Luke being "the father" could be metaphorical, e.g. being a father figure to his young Jedi students.)

— The sequels would be about Jedi Knighthood, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned.

— The sequels would deal with moral and philosophical problems. (This as opposed to the prequel trilogy, which Lucas stated would be "social and political and about how society evolves", and the OT, which he characterised as being about "personal growth and self realization".)

— To the above, Lucas added: "In Star Wars, there is a very clear line drawn between good and evil. Eventually you have to face the fact that good and evil aren't that clear-cut and the real issue is trying to understand the difference."

— Crime and disorder were a prominent element of the setting. Lots of pirates, outlaws, mercenaries and seedy, crime-riddled locales. It seems that all was not set to be well in the galaxy (yet), and the theme of rebuilding and restoration would be present in the story.

— Early on in the film, we'd find Taryn living (for whatever reason) on a junk-yard planet. This planet wasn't envisioned as a near-empty desert world, but would have more rivers, swamps, and sprawling shanty-towns.

— She would be living with an older mentor figure, and she'd be characterised as ready and willing (even eager) to leave. She soon does so, after her home is destroyed.

— Meanwhile, Sam helps another character (described as either a "scoundrel type bounty hunter" or a "middle-aged fighter pilot") to escape the villains.

— The Imperials would be the overt villain faction of the sequels.

— After Taryn and Sam met up, they would go to a "Junk City", elsewhere on the planet, where they would meet up with a contact: none other than Han Solo.

— The planet Felucia would be visited in Episode VII. Since the Falcon would show up there, this sequence was probably planned to occur after the protagonists meet up with Han.

— The concept art of Felucia shows a belt of debris around the planet: apparently the result of one of its two moons having been partially blown up. On the surface, we see the Falcon tangled in the giant native plant-life. Finally, we see the Falcon lifting off from the planet in a hurry, with a large tentacled creature (described only as "blob" in the image description) clinging to it.

— Early art repeatedly shows or refers to a "shaman" character. (Note that Felucia features a native culture led by shamans.)

— Taryn would apparently be searching for Luke, and would find him at roughly the mid-point Episode VII. Luke would be in a sort of self-imposed exile or retreat, living in a secluded bell-shaped temple.

— Taryn would ask Luke to train her as a Jedi, and he would (initially) refuse to do so. Luke would have to be convinced to train a new student, and to be "drawn back from despair".

— Luke would be in exile because he's haunted by the betrayal of one of his students. After RotJ, when the Empire fell, Luke decided to train new Jedi in an attempt to rebuild the Jedi Order. One of Luke’s pupils turned against him. There was a big fight, and the student was wounded and cast aside. There was a "big through-line" in the story, of this character wanting revenge on Luke. The experience would already have left Luke in a dark place, spiritually.

— In the present, that former student would be known as Darth Talon. A female main antagonist to oppose the female main protagonist. She would be "the new Darth Vader" of the sequels, and most of the action would be with her.

— She would be puppeteered by a mysterious evil presence, which would turn out to have psychically influenced (the girl who would become) Darth Talon all the way back when she was young, presumably being instrumental in her turn to the Dark Side.

— It appears that this evil presence would turn out to be the spectral form of Palpatine himself, who would once again be the true villain, behind the scenes. Lucas already planned to bring back Palpatine as an evil Force ghost back in the '80s. He later considered Maul filling that role (with Talon as the "new Vader"), when he re-visited his sequel plans in 2010. By the time of the Lucas/Arndt treatment of 2012, Maul had vanished, but Talon was still there, and being "puppeteered" by a mysterious evil entity. Since J.J. Abrams has claimed that Palpatine was in the earliest plans for Episode VI, and since we also know that Palpatine wasn't in the plans after March 2013, it seems like a very reasonable assumption that the evil entity steering Talon's actions in the 2012 treatment was none other than Palpatine himself. Therefore, I find it probable and convincing that Lucas had circled back around to Palpatine as the true villain, while Talon remained as the "new Vader", serving him.

— Talon would (quite literally) seduce Skyler to the Dark Side during the sequels.

— There was some kind of planet-based superweapon in Episode VII, but it wasn't Starkiller Base, which was added much later, by Abrams and his team.

— Episode VII would feature a climactic battle on an ice planet.

—Han would die in Episode VII.

— Luke would make a "triumphant return" by Episode VII's end— presumably leading to his training of Taryn in Episode VIII. (Concept art shows Taryn's Jedi training, with floating ball droids, but this may have been slated for the middle film, rather than the opening one.) At any rate, Luke's "depressed" period would be over before the end of VII.

— Luke was supposed to have trained Leia as a Jedi to some extent, but not completely. Her training would be completed over the course of the trilogy.

— Luke would have died at or near the end of Episode IX, after having passed the torch to the next generation.

— The sequels would include a "much more ethereal" facet, which would not be "on the same plane of existence" (as the OT). Lucas wanted to explore the nature of the Force in the sequels. The films would address the subject of a "microbiotic world", revealing more about the midichlorians and the Whills.

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None of this strikes me as particularly horrifying. In fact, it seems to me that TFA was a bastardised "descendant" of this original plan, with a lot of interesting stuff stripped out, unneccessary mystery boxes added, the whole plot and setting mangled to deliberately imited ANH, and Luke almost entirely pushed out of the film (to ultimately have his projected "exile" arc -- planned by Lucas to be resolved on a positive note in the first film! -- warped beyond recognition in TLJ).

 

[Doomsought]

The hallmark of Lukas Starwars is a great primary story arc and excellent special effects carrying some lackluster prose and outright terrible attempts to appeal to small children.

 

[Captain X]

None of this strikes me as particularly horrifying. In fact, it seems to me that TFA was a bastardised "descendant" of this original plan, with a lot of interesting stuff stripped out, unneccessary mystery boxes added, the whole plot and setting mangled to deliberately imited ANH, and Luke almost entirely pushed out of the film (to ultimately have his projected "exile" arc -- planned by Lucas to be resolved on a positive note in the first film! -- warped beyond recognition in TLJ).

Never claimed it to be horrifying, just that it wouldn't represent much of an improvement over what we got, or over the PT for that matter. I'd actually already seen a video about his original write-up, which was why I commented on it to begin with. The notable thing about it was that you could see where some of the ideas JJ used in his movies came from. I'm specially not impressed with the idea of Palpatine making a return, in ghost form or otherwise. Honestly a Thrawn figure as the antagonist would be more interesting to me, or if they wanted to involve Palpy at all, they could have had the First Order worshiping him or something, not unlike Kylo worshiped Vader. Darth Talon is kind of interesting to me, if only because I would totally cast Miss Sinister Cosplay to play her. 😝

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Speaking of Lucas, is it just me, or does Valkorion (Darth Vitiate) look more than a bit like a younger version of him?

 

[BlackDragon98]

Biggest problem: outside of the Final Order's scaled-down Eclipses, canon ships are no match for EU ships. Hell, they'd fold against ships from the EU's 3000s BBY. A single Pellaeon Class could probably solo the whole First Order fleet from TLJ.

A single Pelleon class filled with Rakghouls and commanded by Celeste Morne would wipe out the entire Disney Galaxy
Iron Sun | Wookieepedia | Fandom

 

[BlackDragon98]

The KOTOR-era description of the MMO's reconstituted Sith Empire as the 'true' Sith just took on real meaning. Since they actually are the legal evolution of the Old Sith Empire, as their founder (no matter that he later turned his back on them) Darth Vitiate was probably the only ranking survivor of the ruling caste of the Sith Empire at the end of the Great Hyperspace War. Many Sith Lords in the reconstituted empire also had bloodlines dating back to the noble houses of the old empire. Of course, Exar Kun could contest that, as Marka Ragnos personally anointed him as a Dark Lord of the Sith, but few* if any of the post-Old Sith Empire Sith could claim they had similar sanction/mandate from the civilization they claimed to inherit.

*Darth Krayt was anointed by Xoxaan, one of the first Sith Lords, and a peer of Ajunta Pall, founder of the Old Sith Empire. The One Sith and their New Sith Empire could thus be considered the true successor of the Old Sith Empire, not Darth Ruin's Sith Order from the New Sith Wars, which eventually evolved into the Order of the Sith Lords.

EDIT: And come to think of it, the Line of Bane actually was disowned by the True Sith, when Darth Plagueis visited Korriban only to be denounced by the specter of Marka Ragnos.

Krayt himself got denounced by the spector of Darth Nihlius, Bane, and some other guys.
With the Sith it's a literal roasting contest.

 

[AspblastUSA]

Krayt himself got denounced by the spector of Darth Nihlius, Bane, and some other guys.
With the Sith it's a literal roasting contest.

I mean in terms of guys trying to attack your legitimacy you could have a lot worse done to you than Nihlus and Bane. As mentioned the Baneite Sith ended up renounced by Marka Ragnos, and Nihlus was too busy being a spoopy hungry ghost to have strong opinions on Sith Pedigree.

I do agree that Sith Spirits mostly talk mad shit about whoever's visiting though; provided they aren't already trying to drive the person insane or kill them outright. Sith spirits are petty dicks like that.

 

[LindyAF]

The Imperial Remnant was not mentioned in the actual movie, true, but they *were* mentioned in backstory material including the official website, from the beginning of the sequel trilogy.

I can totally see how you got that impression, because they *really* did not mention the actual Imperial Remnant except in backstory material. However, the if you looked it up it *was* officially canon that up until the events of the movie, the First Order's entire existence was a closely held secret. The entire reason Leia created the Resistance was that very few people in the New Republic were willing to believe the First Order *existed at all*, and therefore they refused to even consider rolling back the New Republic's disarmament.

Not strictly canon but logical: the Resistance basically consists of an uncomfortable alliance between Leia's "old friends" who do believe her, and the opposite numbers of the First Order -- the hyper-aggressive Rebel/NR fanatics who opposed the peace treaty and want to go back to war and purge the Empire completely.

Huh, I legitimately had no idea any material ever established them as existing. I didn't pay too much attention to pre-release material for TFA.

What really ruined Rise of Skywalker is that the plot hooks and concepts set up in Force Awakens were intentionally ruined in The Last Jedi, so even when they went back to the original director, it was impossible to save the planned plotline. That's why on a standalone basis, Last Jedi isn't as bad as Rise of Skywalker, but Last Jedi really is the movie that ruined the sequel trilogy.

This was basically a huge demonstration of why you should never hire Rian Johnson for sequels to someone else's work -- while he's a very skilled director, he's like a fanfiction writer in terms of taking over the story by reimagining it and taking it in a completely different direction.

tbh, my hot take here is that TFA is actually where things went wrong. I think the issue was that after the prequels which had been pretty universally disliked, Disney desperately wanted to show that they could do classic Star Wars. So... they basically ended up remaking A New Hope. And credit where it's due, I and I think a lot of other people walked out of the theatre feeling like I got some classic Star Wars. But it created major issues because remaking the world that ANH takes place in doesn't really fit at all with how ROJ leaves off. So we basically got the Empire (First Order) vs Rebels (Resistance) conflict, except it was papered over by a basically unseen Republic that never shows up and is quickly destroyed.

One particular way in which I think this shows is the look and aesthetic of the First Order. If the First Order is meant to be a bunch of exiled Imperial hardliners existing on the edges of known space, they ought to look the part. Their gear, their armor, their ships should be run down, noticeably patched up in places, somewhat inhomogeneous to show a mix of what they could scrounge up and buy from dubious arms dealers and smugglers. It can still be distinctively Imperial and call back nostalgia- stuff like patched together and repurposed Tie Fighters or Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

But instead, the First Order looks, if anything, sleeker and higher tech. And the official info backs this up. The Resurgent-class is twice as big as the Imperial-class was. How would a secret group go around building ships twice the size of the Empires mainstay capital warship?

The look of the First Order would make sense if they were intended to be, say, a (potentially rogue) black ops outfit of a major interstellar polity of something like the Imperial Remnant. But then the movie would have need to concretely establish that the Imperial Remnant exists at all. It wouldn't have even been particularly difficult to do this, but it wasn't done.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

One particular way in which I think this shows is the look and aesthetic of the First Order. If the First Order is meant to be a bunch of exiled Imperial hardliners existing on the edges of known space, they ought to look the part. Their gear, their armor, their ships should be run down, noticeably patched up in places, somewhat inhomogeneous to show a mix of what they could scrounge up and buy from dubious arms dealers and smugglers. It can still be distinctively Imperial and call back nostalgia- stuff like patched together and repurposed Tie Fighters or Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

But instead, the First Order looks, if anything, sleeker and higher tech. And the official info backs this up. The Resurgent-class is twice as big as the Imperial-class was. How would a secret group go around building ships twice the size of the Empires mainstay capital warship?

The idea with the First Order was that they'd taken over a bunch of worlds in the Outer Rim that the New Republic didn't care about anyway, so they had planetary-tier resources but were being relatively *smart* about how they invested them, building a very small number of large and capable ships to carry out limited operations, with their planned masterstroke being a big-ass superweapon that unlike the Death Star, didn't have to *travel* to do its thing.

This is directly referenced in the novelization of Force Awakens -- the Resurgent we see in the movie is literally the very first one, she's *brand new*, and there's only a handful of them in existence yet. The "stupidly huge fleet out of nowhere" is all on Last Jedi, and then doubled down on in Rise of Skywalker, although *that* can be semi-explained by the idea that it's one of the Empire's mothballed reserve forces and not something that was recently built.

 

[LindyAF]

The idea with the First Order was that they'd taken over a bunch of worlds in the Outer Rim that the New Republic didn't care about anyway, so they had planetary-tier resources but were being relatively *smart* about how they invested them, building a very small number of large and capable ships to carry out limited operations, with their planned masterstroke being a big-ass superweapon that unlike the Death Star, didn't have to *travel* to do its thing.

This is directly referenced in the novelization of Force Awakens -- the Resurgent we see in the movie is literally the very first one, she's *brand new*, and there's only a handful of them in existence yet. The "stupidly huge fleet out of nowhere" is all on Last Jedi, and then doubled down on in Rise of Skywalker, although *that* can be semi-explained by the idea that it's one of the Empire's mothballed reserve forces and not something that was recently built.

It's more about the look of the thing and the expectation that creates in the audience. The majority of which does not read novelizations or extra materials- the movies have to stand on their own. The First Order looks like the Empire. It doesn't look like the space Taliban. Even if the movies had told us that this was the only Star Destroyer in the entire First Order (and I'm not sure they even said they didn't have many of them) they never showed it.

I think a good way to do this would have been to make it look like the First Order was using old Imperial shit from 30 years ago and it looked it's age. Another way could have been to have the Republic show up in some capacity and make it very clear that the First Order was having to very carefully pick it's battles.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

It's more about the look of the thing and the expectation that creates in the audience.

I think it fits though -- they have all new build stuff because they had to build it up out of nothing as opposed to having access to Imperial reserves, and it's more advanced but still iconically Imperial.

 

[LindyAF]

It's not that it doesn't fit, it's that the only thing that actually indicates the First Order is not the dominant galactic power in TFA is like, two lines total and one scene in which we watch a bunch of people (who we know none of) die. (They don't even clearly die the sky just gets a bit more red and it's implied.)

For most of the movie, the way the First Order acts on screen is indistinguishable from if the Empire never fell and they look pretty much like the last dominant galactic power we saw on screen.

If they were to have made a retcon saying the actual Empire never fell, after Yavin, I think the only change they would have had to make would be a find+replace of "First Order" for "Empire" in the script. That and maybe swap out the Star Destroyer wreckages we see on Jakku- which isn't nothing, but it isn't enough.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

A single Pelleon class filled with Rakghouls and commanded by Celeste Morne would wipe out the entire Disney Galaxy
Iron Sun | Wookieepedia | Fandom

That's overkill. Just send Darth Nihilus and the Ravager to the start of TFA. Let the First Order board the ship, then even bring it alongside. Once Darth Nihilus steps onto the Resurgent, then we can have a much more fun plot of Kylo and Rey looking for Luke to desperately save their asses from a very hungry Darth Nihilus.

He'd probably head for the nearest Hive World - so probably Nar Shaddaa or that Coruscant lookalike the Disney NR uses as a capital - on the Outer Rim to top up his hunger.

That said, I'd be very surprised if anyone in Disney Star Wars could take on Darth Nihilus. Even Darth Sidious as seen Episode IX is a rather iffy matchup. Sure, he disabled the garbage fleet in the movie, but those ships were all garbage anyway, and he just disabled them. Nihilus devoured an entire world, and one teeming with Jedi at the very start of his career as a Dark Lord of the Sith.

Yeah, this is probably more merciful than tossing the Sith Empire into Disney. At least with this scenario they'll just be up against the Lord of Hunger. In the Sith Empire scenario, they'll have entire armies of Sith to deal with, long before they end up facing any of the Dark Council, much less Darth Vitiate himself.

EDIT: Though, I guess the odds could be evened by sending in some EU Jedi. I wouldn't mind Rey getting some proper training courtesy of Grand Master Satele Shan. Depending on the timeline too, REVAN could also still be around. It would be so fitting to see Disney Palps getting cut down by the Heart of the Force.

Spoiler

Plus Darth Vitiate sending telepathic mockery through Revan - with whom he shares a link thanks to their past confrontations - when he cuts Sidious down.

"You are nothing."

 

[gral]

The prequels work as a story. While there's loads of things I personally would have done differently, the only objective problems of real importance are A) that Lucas wrote the script and B) that the CGI was over-used and (esp. in the first two) just wasn't up to snuff yet.

Biggest problem I have with the prequels is related to the fact Lucas wrote the script: to me, the story feels like it doesn't fit into three movies - it would have needed at least one other movie to make a more natural progression. As it stands, too much of what should have been told by the movies was shunted either to The Clone Wars or some other supplemental material.

 

[Skallagrim]

Biggest problem I have with the prequels is related to the fact Lucas wrote the script: to me, the story feels like it doesn't fit into three movies - it would have needed at least one other movie to make a more natural progression. As it stands, too much of what should have been told by the movies was shunted either to The Clone Wars or some other supplemental material.

It could be done in three films, but I agree that the story we get could've done with more breathing room.

Specifically, the general idea of TPM could have been made as a "prelude", much as Das Rheingold in Wagner's Ring Cycle. "Episode Zero", if you will. And then you have three full episodes left to tell the saga of the Clone Wars.

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I'm specially not impressed with the idea of Palpatine making a return, in ghost form or otherwise. Honestly a Thrawn figure as the antagonist would be more interesting to me, or if they wanted to involve Palpy at all, they could have had the First Order worshiping him or something, not unlike Kylo worshiped Vader.

As far as sequel villains go, "evil Force ghost Palpatine" makes quite a lot of sense to me. It ties the saga together, instead of tacking on an unrelated villain. Honestly, the temporary idea of bringing back Maul was way worse. And Snoke is just... blergh.

Going with a Thrawn-like villain could work, but you do end up asking "how are these films actually Episode VII, VIII and IX?" -- Because RotJ pretty much ended the main saga, and having a new conflict with a new villain makes it seem more like these are the first three episodes of a new saga.

They needed a way to tie these tacked-on episodes to the previous six. The fact that they didn't have a plan for that is a major issue. Bringing back Palpatine is one way to achieve it. (Gives you one clear evil for the whole saga, so it's all part of the same conflict.) There are other ways, and some of them are more satisfying/original. But as far as story structure goes, this is by far the easiest route.

 

[DarthOne]

Easier doesn't mean best.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Having the Imperial Remnant as the enemy welds it just as well. PT: Birth of the Empire. OT: Empire Defeated. ST: Empire tries to make a comeback and is finished off.

 

[Skallagrim]

Easier doesn't mean best.

Sure, but everything else adds more complications. More potential ways to fuck it up.

Having the Imperial Remnant as the enemy welds it just as well. PT: Birth of the Empire. OT: Empire Defeated. ST: Empire tries to make a comeback and is finished off.

I can't really agree here. It's a story in the same setting, but the fact remains that the Big Bad was killed off at end of RotJ. So the only way forward is to go with a "legacy of evil" angle.

Thrawn worked as a new villain, for instance, because his last ditch attempt to bring back Imperial supremacy took place a mere five years after Endor, when a substantial part of the galaxy was still contested. It makes for a good follow-up because it stars the same OT heroes in the lead roles, and presents a logical "aftermath" scenario in a realistic time-frame. Something like that would not work the same way 30+ years after Endor, with a new generation of heroes in the lead.

What I'm trying to say is: the sequels are by definition distant from the preceding saga. The villain of the last three films? Dead. The heroes of the preceding films? Old. The conflict? Over. So, unless we somehow tie this trilogy to the preceding two in a more substantial manner, having new Imperials as baddies isn't enough. This isn't "the last three episodes". This is "Star Wars: The Next Generation". And that's okay, but as far as Trek is concerned, nobody had the impression that TNG was a new season of TOS or something. It was a new "saga" set in the same universe.

TRoS just brings back Palpatine because Abrams had no other ideas, sure, but that's simple desperation. If we look at TFA and TLJ, what's the actual connection to the other two trilogies? What makes the sequels into "the third act of the saga", as opposed to "another story in the same setting"?

Lucas's ideas, at least, clearly aimed to tie the sequels far more closely to the other six films:

1) His initial plan was to put the rebuilding of the Republic front-and-centre. The overall myth-act then becomes one of decline from good to evil (prequels), followed by the reign of evil (OT), and then the restoration of good (sequels). You have to wipe out the dark legacy of a quarter-century of tyranny, and rebuild the galaxy. In this context, Imperial die-hards, fanatics, criminals, etc. function as the villains. (Resurrected Maul as a criminal kingpin or what-have-you fits into this concept as well.) They are the results of Palpatine's evil, and the struggle is only complete once not only the Emperor is gone, but this evil legacy as well. But note that this only works with sequels made c. 2000 (less than 20 years after Endor), as Lucas initially envisioned it. Because if you wait longer than that, the heroes look like morons who haven't gotten anything done even though Palpy has been dead for decades.

2) The idea that Lucas seems to have settled on by 2012: make evil Force ghost Palpatine the villain. Then, it doesn't matter that decades have passed. In fact, that can be a salient point. The driving problem of the story is that despite decades having passed, everything still isn't quite right with the galaxy. There are still bad guys around (either Imperials who set up a Remnant, or some shadowy crime syndicate). The heroes can't seem to stamp out evil, specifically because there is an evil spectre manipulating events from behind the scenes. Ghostly Palpatine also corrupted one of Luke's students. All this means that there is one villain for all the trilogies. In the prequels, he was masquerading as a good guy leading the Republic, in the OT he was the overt tyrant, and now in the sequels, he is the hidden spectre who continues to exert influence from beyond the grave. A "phantom menace", indeed. So the final victory of good can't happen until the evil spirit is completely exorcised.

Both these approaches make a lot of sense when you're trying to tell an altogether cohesive tri-trilogy saga, and doing your best despite the fact that Episode VI was actually written as the Grand Finale. Keep in mind: there's loads of television series that write their Grand Finale because they think they're getting cancelled... and then they get renewed against expectation, and the writers have to come up with new stuff, even though the actual climax has been passed. Usually, this ends very poorly. The sequels face this exact problem.

And that's why "Empire tries to make a comeback", by itself, isn't sufficient. You actively have to prove that this really is the third act of the greater saga. And that takes effort. You've got to tie it all together. Lucas at least did his best to achieve that. Disney... didn't.

This is not to say that there aren't other ways to achieve the same effect. Some may indeed be better than bringing back Palpatine. But all of them will require a lot of effort to weave this new trilogy into the fabric of the saga. And in less straight-forward ways than the obvious and easy "yup, it's still Palpatine, even now". I don't believe for a second that the people in charge of the sequels were remotely capable of managing that. Which leads me back to Hamill's remark. They should just have listened to Lucas, because he evidently understood the story better than they did.