D
Deleted member 88
Guest
Have you read Traitor?
Your speaking to a died in the wool Jacen fan, just FYI.
Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind
- Thread starter Urabrask Revealed
- Start date
Your speaking to a died in the wool Jacen fan, just FYI.
ShadowsOfParadox
Well-known member
good for you. I found the story telling dropped in quality pretty fast after they had to drop the Anakin plot line... honestly the Vong war ended in a VERY blatant Deus Ex Machina IMO.
D
Deleted member 88
Guest
Not really though?
Shimmra was dead, and so was Onimi. Most of the Vong elite were dead as well. The shamed ones were open revolt. And Zonama was visible in the sky of Yuuzhan’tar.
Nas Choka neither being fanatical or insane made a rational decision to yield.
And so ended the war.
Regarding Rise of Skywalker, is there any particular thematic reason why Rey would have had to build her lightsaber at the end of the movie and not the start? Because it occurs to me that Disney missed out on a big opportunity for merchandising they way they did it, if she'd actually had it at the start and used it the whole time, Disney could have sold a bunch of them in stores (it's been nothing but Anakin and Ben's lightsaber in the toy section for years, you'd think they'd want to get something new on shelves)>
D
Deleted member 88
Guest
My thoughts on Jacen v Anakin
Jacen is not the traditional swashbuckling hero. Anakin is.
Jacen is a philosopher, a bleeding heart, intensely empathetic and generally uninterested in the mundane.
Anakin is a warrior, a fighter, a Jedi’s whose first inclination is to draw a lightsaber to solve problems.
The whole point of jacen’s victory in the end isn’t “martial might will defeat the Vong”, it’s “compassion and understanding will defeat them and transform them”.
I honestly ask what thematic point Jacen’s death would have served? “Opposing war as the only answer is bad”?
Anakin dying is a refutation of the notion that the hero solves the problem by martial power.
How does Jacen defeat Onimi you ask? He defeats Onimi by total submission and humility to the force-he just blocks Onimi’s attacks, and the poisons destroy the supreme overlord instead.
Personally I relate very strongly to Jacen, I see myself in him. And I don’t find his philosophizing annoying or boring. It’s the sort of thing I do.
Jacen is not the traditional swashbuckling hero. Anakin is.
Jacen is a philosopher, a bleeding heart, intensely empathetic and generally uninterested in the mundane.
Anakin is a warrior, a fighter, a Jedi’s whose first inclination is to draw a lightsaber to solve problems.
The whole point of jacen’s victory in the end isn’t “martial might will defeat the Vong”, it’s “compassion and understanding will defeat them and transform them”.
I honestly ask what thematic point Jacen’s death would have served? “Opposing war as the only answer is bad”?
Anakin dying is a refutation of the notion that the hero solves the problem by martial power.
How does Jacen defeat Onimi you ask? He defeats Onimi by total submission and humility to the force-he just blocks Onimi’s attacks, and the poisons destroy the supreme overlord instead.
Personally I relate very strongly to Jacen, I see myself in him. And I don’t find his philosophizing annoying or boring. It’s the sort of thing I do.
Navarro
Well-known member
Especially weird since the actress is uninterested in returning to SW.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
There isn't much point in putting something on store shelves if it isn't going to sell; and last I heard, sequel trilogy merchandise wasn't selling, at least not compared to stuff based on the original trilogy.
LifeisTiresome
Well-known member
So what do you guys think of the Sith eternal? The Sith worshiping cult that has members across the galaxy and has members who are among the leadership in Star Wars companies.
prinCZess
Warrior, Writer, Performer, Perv
So, finished the Mandalorian by sponging-off friends more inclined to give the Mouse their money than I currently am.
Pretty well done, overall? I hesitate to say 'great' just...because, I dunnow, I don't know if I can bring myself to apply that to any SW property since the prequels...But it's definitely one of the best Star Wars products out there from the Disney era, and it embraces the 'Western in Space' thematic outline whole-heartedly from the beginning that it's hard not to enjoy and have a good time with--and it does so in a pretty obviously and effectively similar way to how the original trilogy and New Hope especially stole from samurai movies. So it's like a...good cyclical 'reminder' of the process SW has gone through, I suppose? It feels Star Wars-y in a way that the two sequels I watched didn't and that only Rogue One approached and debatably achieved (I think it did, but I've heard viable arguments from others it's just the best of a bad lot).
It's straightforward, relatively simple, the characters are fun and, while not 'complex', you get enough of a sense of them and connection to them that the finale where there's sacrifices made actually succeeds in inspiring some emotion, dammit. Perhaps best of all among 'minor' points, is that there's not so much 'quippy', Marvel dialogue? When there's comedy it tends to be more situational or even visual, and the dialogue when it was clever, tended to go the dry wit route rather than anything else...And that was a pretty welcome change of pace.
Don't think it's worth hopping out to give the Mouse money for to stream it, but if you're a Star Wars fan I'd certainly say it's worth picking up when (if?) they release it on video.
Pretty well done, overall? I hesitate to say 'great' just...because, I dunnow, I don't know if I can bring myself to apply that to any SW property since the prequels...But it's definitely one of the best Star Wars products out there from the Disney era, and it embraces the 'Western in Space' thematic outline whole-heartedly from the beginning that it's hard not to enjoy and have a good time with--and it does so in a pretty obviously and effectively similar way to how the original trilogy and New Hope especially stole from samurai movies. So it's like a...good cyclical 'reminder' of the process SW has gone through, I suppose? It feels Star Wars-y in a way that the two sequels I watched didn't and that only Rogue One approached and debatably achieved (I think it did, but I've heard viable arguments from others it's just the best of a bad lot).
It's straightforward, relatively simple, the characters are fun and, while not 'complex', you get enough of a sense of them and connection to them that the finale where there's sacrifices made actually succeeds in inspiring some emotion, dammit. Perhaps best of all among 'minor' points, is that there's not so much 'quippy', Marvel dialogue? When there's comedy it tends to be more situational or even visual, and the dialogue when it was clever, tended to go the dry wit route rather than anything else...And that was a pretty welcome change of pace.
Don't think it's worth hopping out to give the Mouse money for to stream it, but if you're a Star Wars fan I'd certainly say it's worth picking up when (if?) they release it on video.
DarthOne
☦️
I’m somewhat doubtful of that sort of pop-culture psychoanalysis in general. But it is an interesting occurrence.
D
Deleted member 88
Guest
I think the general consensus is that Abrams basically wanted a soft reboot of the OT.
Johnson threw that out the window and so Abrams had to salvage something of the mess.
That's not to say Johnson's auteur pretensions have merit or that Abrams isn't an uncreative hack(he is, and Johnson's TLJ is still awful) but that's where the tension comes in.
There was no plan for the ST, and no insistence that it be followed. Abrams may have had a plan-a plan which basically would be the OT with a female Luke and modern special effects, but that's all it ever was.
Ultimately I blame the fans. They demanded, or at least Disney thought they demanded OT nostalgia and redos.
Johnson threw that out the window and so Abrams had to salvage something of the mess.
That's not to say Johnson's auteur pretensions have merit or that Abrams isn't an uncreative hack(he is, and Johnson's TLJ is still awful) but that's where the tension comes in.
There was no plan for the ST, and no insistence that it be followed. Abrams may have had a plan-a plan which basically would be the OT with a female Luke and modern special effects, but that's all it ever was.
Ultimately I blame the fans. They demanded, or at least Disney thought they demanded OT nostalgia and redos.
Certified_Heterosexual
The Falklands are Serbian, you cowards.
The future of Star Wars will probably reflect what happened to the Muppets franchise. With Muppets, Disney bought a beloved IP... but couldn’t crack the code of its appeal, so they basically shelved it and now it is worth a fraction of the original value. Disney can’t figure out how to make Muppet TV shows or movies people actually like, so a brand that could be valuable in someone else’s hands becomes worthless in Disney’s hands. And they would rather do nothing with the IP than admit they don’t know what to do with it, or admit defeat and sell it. So, it sits and rots.
This is the future of Star Wars: Disney can’t understand the appeal of the thing they bought and is at a loss to decide where to go from here, but damned if they're going to let anyone else get it.
This is the future of Star Wars: Disney can’t understand the appeal of the thing they bought and is at a loss to decide where to go from here, but damned if they're going to let anyone else get it.
IP hoarding is a problem in the industry. I mean, look at EA who routinely buy well-doing studios, force changes on their games to make them more appealing to the masses, and when they start losing profit, the studio gets dissolved and the employes either fired or shuffled among intern studios.
Certified_Heterosexual
The Falklands are Serbian, you cowards.
It's a dead horse but why not:
Now you might very well be saying, "why is YOC posting that Shad video? Sure, Shadiversity knows a lot about swordfighting, but that video is still just 1+ hours of a nerd pointing out that it's a movie fight, not a real one." Well that's not entirely true; I maintain it's a bit more than that. The necessary contrast is provided with Shad's video on another fight scene in Star Wars:
Granted, these videos are mainly of interest to people who are into fight scene choreography. They go into far too much detail for a casual moviegoer, but they do show that there is a level of effort that needs be put into action choreography and it's completely absent from Rian's movie. Shad goes into things like telegraphing swings, maintaining guard position, leaving wide openings, and whether the fighting shows good technique. It's mildly interesting because lightsaber dueling is such a big element of Star Wars.
The throne room fight scene was obviously choreographed by a dance choreographer and not a fight choreographer— at several points the actors and stuntmen do totally nonsensical things "because it looks good"— the characters are essentially dancing with each other. Think Michael Jackson's "Beat It" video. And I think the general audience does get this impression; the fighting looks "for show." When fighting looks too much "for show," it loses the element of danger, and it doesn't have a climax. The Last Jedi clearly suffers from this problem— when the fight is over, the characters just look like they finished a workout video.
The Revenge of the Sith fight scene has other problems: it's far too long, has a couple of egregious moves that take you out of it, and ends on a rather silly note, with Obi-Wan picking up his dead friend's lightsaber and trotting off like he has some errands to run. Despite this, it still looks like a fight scene that serves a dramatic purpose. The Last Jedi scene is typical of the entire sequel trilogy in that it seems to have no point at all, other than these are big movies that need big action set pieces, and this is what they bothered to come up with.
This is really a larger problem with modern action movies— with few exceptions, Hollywood seems to have forgotten what makes an action scene enjoyable. It's not flashiness or dance moves, it's the climax to a dramatic build-up. Increasingly these movies don't competently build any sort of drama, so the fight scene is just a bunch of choreographed moves with no connection to anything. The audience is waiting for it to be over like bad sex, instead of being caught up in the experience.
This dramatic emptiness is more noticeable after you've seen an older movie get it right. But it's hard to gin up drama with flat characters who have uninteresting (or nonexistent *rolls eyes at Rey*) motivations that you're not invested in. I think it's even reflective of our own sense of cultural detachment and anomie.
When you look at popular YouTube lists of top movie fight scenes, they almost all favor flashy, videogamey action over dramatic catharsis, because it's hard to show the latter in a short YouTube clip. Instead you get clips that are "savage" and "brutal" and "grueling," i.e. frenetically-edited fake punches and stabs that impress vidya-addicted millennials whose productive effort consists of writing listicles for other childish millennials. Perhaps we get the fight scenes we deserve.
Another issue with that fight scene is the way so goddamn flatly presented. It's presented as a moving painting. I remember watching it in the cinema and I didn't notice any of the aforementioned choreography stuff until much later. My big issue on first viewing was that I didn't care about anything that was happening. Structural issues with the story aside, I could've still felt concern for this imperilled duo at least but... I wasn't watching two people being assaulted by a swarm of soldiers. I was watching a flow of color and movement.
For contrast, here's Jackie Chan, engaged in a weapon based fight against other armed guys:
Now, it's a Jackie Chan movie so he's hardly trying for realism. But Chan and his friend here always feel like they're actually in danger. Leaving aside the fact that they take the most direct way to attack him (no showy moves), you actually feel like he's outnumbered, as if he were being pummelled by waves of water, and trying to swim up and gasp for air. And because we're focused on him and his friend, we get to see them thinking things through, how they're gonna overcome this next problem.
In the throne room fight, we're pure spectators. We're never let "in" on what's happening. We are never given a moment to identify with Rey or Kylo. The most memorable part of that fight, for me— and I've only seen this movie once almost 3 years ago so I'm pulling this out of my head— is when one mook uses his electro-whip and is dragging Kylo in closer and closer, his saber is trapped, and he has to find some way out of the situation. We actually have a moment where the momentum slows down and the audience feels some worry for him, and watch how he makes his way through it.
But the rest of that fight? They're just going and going and going, and it's like the whole thing is a forgone conclusion. I remember checking out during that point in the movie, utterly bored by what was going on.
I'm the furthest thing from a choreographer, but here's my amateur advice: Rey is an inexperienced fighter, right? She should be swamped. The effect of all these guys attacking her with weapons she's never even seen before should be her constantly being back-footed. We should see her worried, afraid, throwing everything she has into her strikes, getting sloppy, making mistakes, falling back, with Kylo constantly having to rescue her, because he's been fighting with a lightsaber since childhood. You can still end the fight the same way, where he's now disarmed and backfooted and she chucks him her lightsaber and he kills the guy. But isn't it suddenly more rewarding now, seeing her rescue the far better swordsman after being at a disadvantage for the whole battle?
Rey's a scavenger, a street urchin facing down professional soldiers, and we watch her having to use her pluck and smarts to figure out some way to defeat them, since they're the far superior fighters. She thinks laterally, using her lightsaber in weird ways, thinking about creative, unorthodox ways you can use a lightsaber beyond swinging it like a sword. I mean, this is fucking classic cinema! There's so many fight scenes like this you can crib from where the underdog hero overcomes a far superior enemy using street smarts, pluck, and a little bit of trickery.
But of course, the problems with that fight scene extend beyond just it qua fight-scene. It's the stuff inherent in these characters. Rey has to be this perfect audience insert who is an instinctually fantastic fighter, because apparently that's what little girls want to see. The troglodytes behind the camera have no concept of human nature. They've totally forgotten how audiences like to see protagonists who are imperfect, imperilled, and overwhelmed, so it's that much more satisfying when we finally can watch them overcome the odds. They think that when people want to see a hero, what they want to see is someone who can do anything, who is always the best.
The scene lacks all dynamism, because it's all just a bunch of people fighting, all of whom are perfect fighters, and the winner is just the person who is 10% better. Which is, in a sense, more "realistic"because that's how a lot of IRL fights go: people are fairly well matched, but one guy is just a little bit better, or a little bit luckier. Each guard Rey and Kylo defeat, they don't defeat in some clever or emotionally engaging way. We never for one moment feel any sense of threat or accomplishment. They just do the right thing rather than the wrong thing.
The only remarkable moment in this fight is when Rey tosses Kylo the saber, deactivated, and he catches it, activates it into his enemy's head, and then deactivates it again. Shad's video mentions this too— it's in fact something useful and obvious you can do with a lightsaber that no one ever does. They should be doing this constantly. For example when the electro-whip weapon catches Rey's lightsaber, all she has to do is deactivate it for a second and he'll fall backward! This would be both logical and provide a moment of Jackie Chan-esque dynamism and creativity, showcasing Reys street-urchin cunning. Instead they do a lot of silly acrobatics and even punch enemies while ignoring their weapons.
The prequel films' choreography was obviously influenced by martial arts fighting— especially Hong Kong wire-fu stuff— and the saber wielders start doing more pointless flourishes in imitation of this, but the choreography is for the most part attempting to incorporate realistic moves. But by the time of the sequels the directors are all postmodern idiots who only know what fights are from watching movies with fights in them... which is much of the point of the criticism: the fights lose almost all of their verisimilitude and become glorified dance scenes.
Now you might very well be saying, "why is YOC posting that Shad video? Sure, Shadiversity knows a lot about swordfighting, but that video is still just 1+ hours of a nerd pointing out that it's a movie fight, not a real one." Well that's not entirely true; I maintain it's a bit more than that. The necessary contrast is provided with Shad's video on another fight scene in Star Wars:
Granted, these videos are mainly of interest to people who are into fight scene choreography. They go into far too much detail for a casual moviegoer, but they do show that there is a level of effort that needs be put into action choreography and it's completely absent from Rian's movie. Shad goes into things like telegraphing swings, maintaining guard position, leaving wide openings, and whether the fighting shows good technique. It's mildly interesting because lightsaber dueling is such a big element of Star Wars.
The throne room fight scene was obviously choreographed by a dance choreographer and not a fight choreographer— at several points the actors and stuntmen do totally nonsensical things "because it looks good"— the characters are essentially dancing with each other. Think Michael Jackson's "Beat It" video. And I think the general audience does get this impression; the fighting looks "for show." When fighting looks too much "for show," it loses the element of danger, and it doesn't have a climax. The Last Jedi clearly suffers from this problem— when the fight is over, the characters just look like they finished a workout video.
The Revenge of the Sith fight scene has other problems: it's far too long, has a couple of egregious moves that take you out of it, and ends on a rather silly note, with Obi-Wan picking up his dead friend's lightsaber and trotting off like he has some errands to run. Despite this, it still looks like a fight scene that serves a dramatic purpose. The Last Jedi scene is typical of the entire sequel trilogy in that it seems to have no point at all, other than these are big movies that need big action set pieces, and this is what they bothered to come up with.
This is really a larger problem with modern action movies— with few exceptions, Hollywood seems to have forgotten what makes an action scene enjoyable. It's not flashiness or dance moves, it's the climax to a dramatic build-up. Increasingly these movies don't competently build any sort of drama, so the fight scene is just a bunch of choreographed moves with no connection to anything. The audience is waiting for it to be over like bad sex, instead of being caught up in the experience.
This dramatic emptiness is more noticeable after you've seen an older movie get it right. But it's hard to gin up drama with flat characters who have uninteresting (or nonexistent *rolls eyes at Rey*) motivations that you're not invested in. I think it's even reflective of our own sense of cultural detachment and anomie.
When you look at popular YouTube lists of top movie fight scenes, they almost all favor flashy, videogamey action over dramatic catharsis, because it's hard to show the latter in a short YouTube clip. Instead you get clips that are "savage" and "brutal" and "grueling," i.e. frenetically-edited fake punches and stabs that impress vidya-addicted millennials whose productive effort consists of writing listicles for other childish millennials. Perhaps we get the fight scenes we deserve.
Another issue with that fight scene is the way so goddamn flatly presented. It's presented as a moving painting. I remember watching it in the cinema and I didn't notice any of the aforementioned choreography stuff until much later. My big issue on first viewing was that I didn't care about anything that was happening. Structural issues with the story aside, I could've still felt concern for this imperilled duo at least but... I wasn't watching two people being assaulted by a swarm of soldiers. I was watching a flow of color and movement.
For contrast, here's Jackie Chan, engaged in a weapon based fight against other armed guys:
Now, it's a Jackie Chan movie so he's hardly trying for realism. But Chan and his friend here always feel like they're actually in danger. Leaving aside the fact that they take the most direct way to attack him (no showy moves), you actually feel like he's outnumbered, as if he were being pummelled by waves of water, and trying to swim up and gasp for air. And because we're focused on him and his friend, we get to see them thinking things through, how they're gonna overcome this next problem.
In the throne room fight, we're pure spectators. We're never let "in" on what's happening. We are never given a moment to identify with Rey or Kylo. The most memorable part of that fight, for me— and I've only seen this movie once almost 3 years ago so I'm pulling this out of my head— is when one mook uses his electro-whip and is dragging Kylo in closer and closer, his saber is trapped, and he has to find some way out of the situation. We actually have a moment where the momentum slows down and the audience feels some worry for him, and watch how he makes his way through it.
But the rest of that fight? They're just going and going and going, and it's like the whole thing is a forgone conclusion. I remember checking out during that point in the movie, utterly bored by what was going on.
I'm the furthest thing from a choreographer, but here's my amateur advice: Rey is an inexperienced fighter, right? She should be swamped. The effect of all these guys attacking her with weapons she's never even seen before should be her constantly being back-footed. We should see her worried, afraid, throwing everything she has into her strikes, getting sloppy, making mistakes, falling back, with Kylo constantly having to rescue her, because he's been fighting with a lightsaber since childhood. You can still end the fight the same way, where he's now disarmed and backfooted and she chucks him her lightsaber and he kills the guy. But isn't it suddenly more rewarding now, seeing her rescue the far better swordsman after being at a disadvantage for the whole battle?
Rey's a scavenger, a street urchin facing down professional soldiers, and we watch her having to use her pluck and smarts to figure out some way to defeat them, since they're the far superior fighters. She thinks laterally, using her lightsaber in weird ways, thinking about creative, unorthodox ways you can use a lightsaber beyond swinging it like a sword. I mean, this is fucking classic cinema! There's so many fight scenes like this you can crib from where the underdog hero overcomes a far superior enemy using street smarts, pluck, and a little bit of trickery.
But of course, the problems with that fight scene extend beyond just it qua fight-scene. It's the stuff inherent in these characters. Rey has to be this perfect audience insert who is an instinctually fantastic fighter, because apparently that's what little girls want to see. The troglodytes behind the camera have no concept of human nature. They've totally forgotten how audiences like to see protagonists who are imperfect, imperilled, and overwhelmed, so it's that much more satisfying when we finally can watch them overcome the odds. They think that when people want to see a hero, what they want to see is someone who can do anything, who is always the best.
The scene lacks all dynamism, because it's all just a bunch of people fighting, all of whom are perfect fighters, and the winner is just the person who is 10% better. Which is, in a sense, more "realistic"because that's how a lot of IRL fights go: people are fairly well matched, but one guy is just a little bit better, or a little bit luckier. Each guard Rey and Kylo defeat, they don't defeat in some clever or emotionally engaging way. We never for one moment feel any sense of threat or accomplishment. They just do the right thing rather than the wrong thing.
The only remarkable moment in this fight is when Rey tosses Kylo the saber, deactivated, and he catches it, activates it into his enemy's head, and then deactivates it again. Shad's video mentions this too— it's in fact something useful and obvious you can do with a lightsaber that no one ever does. They should be doing this constantly. For example when the electro-whip weapon catches Rey's lightsaber, all she has to do is deactivate it for a second and he'll fall backward! This would be both logical and provide a moment of Jackie Chan-esque dynamism and creativity, showcasing Reys street-urchin cunning. Instead they do a lot of silly acrobatics and even punch enemies while ignoring their weapons.
The prequel films' choreography was obviously influenced by martial arts fighting— especially Hong Kong wire-fu stuff— and the saber wielders start doing more pointless flourishes in imitation of this, but the choreography is for the most part attempting to incorporate realistic moves. But by the time of the sequels the directors are all postmodern idiots who only know what fights are from watching movies with fights in them... which is much of the point of the criticism: the fights lose almost all of their verisimilitude and become glorified dance scenes.
D
Deleted member 88
Guest
Personally I never had too much of an issue with prequel choreography. It should also be noted that the Jedi(and their adversaries) being supernaturally enhanced are capable of jumps, twists and spins that normal people aren’t.
The “unrealistic” moves in the prequels to me at least always enhanced that point. “These aren’t normal people, they have the power of a universal energy field emanating in and around them”.
But I agree with the throne room fight scene. ST fight scenes in general I think are pretty lame. But that’s just me.
The “unrealistic” moves in the prequels to me at least always enhanced that point. “These aren’t normal people, they have the power of a universal energy field emanating in and around them”.
But I agree with the throne room fight scene. ST fight scenes in general I think are pretty lame. But that’s just me.
Who's heading it? Did the creators imply why the New Republic didn't stomp down on the forming First Order? Will they fix the awful design of the trandoshans, or will it be this weird mixture of human and lizard features?
Uh, I'm not sure how to answer all that, because it seems very much outside the scope of the show.
As for the Trandoshan designs, I got no issue with how they've handled those so far. It was always a 'lizardman-suit' and those have some limitations in how life-like you can make them.