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Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

ShadowArxxy

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There's literally a scientific definition of Stationary Orbit. As it turns out, it literally means a natural geostationary orbit at such and such an altitude. You might as well argue that they have a different meaning for the word "Kilometer."

What you're quoting was never canon at all. Star Wars, pre-Disney, had a strict canon hierarchy that allowed on to escape the silly contradiction games you're playing. At the top was the movies, Clone Wars, and their novelizations, then came "official" other books, comics, and at the bottom games. So the novelization would completely override anything from Star Wars Battlefront, much less a manual from it, if there was a contradiction.

A technical manual based on a game would be the lowest of the low and now with Disney throwing out the EU wholesale, not even that.
What I quoted is actually from the EA Battlefront II of 2015, not the Pandemic Studios Battlefront II of 2005, meaning it is actually part of the non-tiered, unified Disney canon managed by the Lucasfilm Story Group. If you want to go solely off Legends continuity that's fair enough, but that also takes away the Death Star Owner's Technical Manual which was in 2013, as well as the (alleged) Leland Chee Twitter statement that backs up Death Star Owner as an "un-retcon".

Actually, come to think of it -- if you put it all together, I would say it's entirely reasonable to take the split opinion that the up-to-date Disney Canon canonically puts the Death Stars back at 120 km and 160 km, while the unredacted EU/Legends Canon just as canonically has the Death Stars at 160 km and 900 km.
 
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Internal turmoil is certainly possible. The enemy, here, however, is Space Sparta -- and too much internal division would really screw the galaxy over.

So one might either make the enemy a more expeditionary force (strong, but limited in numbers) or prevent the galaxy from being too divided.

Well, if we take that fan film as canon in terms of how they train (At least in principle) meaning that resurrection technology is commonplace for this society, it'd make sense for their forces to be small but strong even if you handwaved the corrilation between increased lifespan and decreased fertility (You could easily say Sex and pregnancy is pleasurable for them) it'd make sense that they'd only need a small army if it's almost impposible to kill said army.

Either way, the bottom line would be "how do we find a way to productively work together, without sacrificing the freedom and individuality that we value". (After all, going full Unionism Or Bust! would also be a response to invasion, but that would just turn you into what you're fighting: a hegemonic, monolithic power that values enforced unity over freedom and pluralism.)
here is a potintal monkey wrench, What if finding that balance is the only way to keep this force from glassing the republic? Become a monolith only kept together by brute force and the cult of personality, this legion decides your unworthy to exist glasses the republic and brings willing survivors into their fold. Fall too much into petty infighting, the legion decides your unworthy to exist glasses the republic and brings willing survivors into their fold.
 

Emperor Tippy

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So why is the Republic called a Democracy?

It's an aristocratic oligarchy.

Organa? Ruled (or one of two ruling Houses) Alderaan for literally twenty five thousand years before Palpatine came along. And this is the champion of "Democracy"?

In reality, what the movies mean by Democracy is the Democracy of literally the most select of the select across the whole of the galaxy. It is a Democracy whose constituency was the Senators - not the people. Senators who, one and all, were literally in not just the top 1% but in the top trillionth of one percent (being conservative).

The Jedi? An order of monks who have supposedly forsworn material possessions and yet locate themselves in, quite literally, some of the most absolutely valuable real estate in the entire galaxy. They could sell the Temple for enough wealth to buy entire Sectors. Imagine how much good they could do with that wealth.

I mean yeah, Palpatine was unapologetically evil and (depending on viewpoint) massively corrupt; but at least he wasn't a raging hypocrite with a delusional world view.

Honestly, I just can't take most of the "pro Republic" ideologues seriously. I suppose it is no surprise that their whole attempt at a New Republic collapses completely within a generation.

Thoughts?
 

Batrix2070

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The answer is quite simple. Today's confusion that Republic = Democracy, when in fact it has rarely been so.
Republic used to refer to a much broader phrase and a republic could just as well be a Monarchy, example Venice or Poland which were non-democratic republics.

Unfortunately, today it has become so accepted to treat the two terms republic and democracy as synonyms that screenwriters and writers mistakenly confuse one with the other.

So much and so much. I wouldn't look for any greater pit in this than there is.

Hence, the old Republic was a republic and not a de facto democracy because it had to be a republic if it wanted to control the galaxy without civil war breaking out from time to time.
Unfortunately the writers don't know each other so they confuse one with the other.
Another thing is that how do you imagine democracy on a galactic scale? There is already a problem with democracy in a country larger than Switzerland let alone on a planetary scale. By you have to limit the number of those who decide at higher levels. Otherwise it becomes a sham.

Another thing is that this is the result of slow change and an incumbent system. It used to be different, but millennia of change have resulted in inequality that wasn't there originally and any change threatens to break up this heavily decentralized system. Also add that the Sith did not want the breakup of the Republic. (To quote Darth Bane himself the main originator of the new Sith, it's easier to control one government than dozens of smaller ones hence most likely the main bad guys themselves helped stifle any rebellion until they could use it to their advantage).
 
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Emperor Tippy

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Sure.

But all the anti-Palpatine people (both Prequels and later) talk about liberty and democracy. The Republic was never democratic and liberty was fairly questionable most of the time as well.

I mean even if you assume the constituency was individual worlds, the Senate wasn't democratic then either considering how Sectors worked and how Senators were selected. Very convenient that the same world would basically always select the Sector Senator.

Don't get me wrong, Democracy is about the worst way imaginable to run a galaxy spanning polity. The best case democracy can hope for is operating at the planetary level and using layered government to get to a workable leader (the worlds elected government selects representatives to a relatively small Sector legislature, which does the same thing for a larger Oversector, which does the same thing for the galactic legislature.

But all the anti-Palpatine people claim they are "restoring Democracy" when it never existed and what they actually mean is restorting their aristocratic, oligarchical, asses to the seats of power that they had gotten accustomed too over thousands of years and that they had repeatedly proven themselves spectacularly unsuited to hold.
 

Batrix2070

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But all the anti-Palpatine people (both Prequels and later) talk about liberty and democracy.
Because it sounds nice? You know how you want to convince everyone of a galactic government you have to be either a very effective tyrant that everyone fears but doesn't necessarily hate.
Or sell a nice fairy tale that they will follow. And that one has to promise that there will be some form of representation and freedom. Otherwise you can't build a "voluntary" form of Union.
and that they had repeatedly proven themselves spectacularly unsuited to hold.
And that's exactly the point! They are only supposed to be representatives and nothing more! The real power is elsewhere, namely in the hands of the rulers of the planets and other organizations within the republic.
The simplest way to compare it to the European Parliament, he has no great significance because the real power is in the hands of national governments and unelected European officials. The former serve only as a propaganda tube and a way to draw attention, but the real power is held by others.
If they were seriously able to do more than they have, the republic would begin to disintegrate on its own. That's why it was constantly paralyzed because it was specifically designed that way, for better or worse.
 

Skallagrim

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So why is the Republic called a Democracy?

It's an aristocratic oligarchy.
It's a confederation. I mean, you cite Alderaan, but that's one member. The expanded universe shows other members with totally different governments, like one where all decisions are reached via consensus.

And that's the point. The Republic isn't a democracy, that's true, but it's not an aristocratic oligarchy, either. Some of its members are.

The Republic is mostly like the United Nations, or the (early, pre-centralisation) European Economic Community. Or maybe a bit like the early USA, under the Articles of Confederation.


But all the anti-Palpatine people (both Prequels and later) talk about liberty and democracy. The Republic was never democratic and liberty was fairly questionable most of the time as well.
"Democracy" was probably a questionable claim, although one may argue that decisions in the Senate were reached via majority vote. Since the Republic is confederal, the central government is the only organ of power that any uniform standard could be applied to -- and the central government, was, within its own sphere, indeed democratic.

Saying "it's not really democratic because the member states aren't all -- or even mostly -- democratic" is a bit of an unfair tactic, because the Republic was always meant to be confederal, and never pretended otherwise. I see the claims about "democracy" as essentially meaning "the central government generally represented the wishes of the constituent states under the Republic, but this is most definitely not the case under the Empire". And that's... well, true.


Regarding "liberty", I think it mostly means "self-determination". The Republic was confederal, meaning all members governed themselves, as they saw fit, and this is what is meant by liberty. Under Palpatine, all autonomy was abolished, and the despotic central government made all the decisions. That is what is understood as tyranny.

The protagonists of SW can be read as inherently reactionary in their aims. To me, that only makes them more sympathetic, to be honest...


But all the anti-Palpatine people claim they are "restoring Democracy" when it never existed and what they actually mean is restorting their aristocratic, oligarchical, asses to the seats of power that they had gotten accustomed too over thousands of years and that they had repeatedly proven themselves spectacularly unsuited to hold.
This is, because of the above, an unfair assessment. They were trying to restore, above all else, self-determination -- which in practice means "local autonomy" and "a very weak central govenment".

The people aiming for this were, in fact, the best-suited to govern the galaxy, because they wanted to dramatically limit the central government (meaning: their own power). They understood that the government that governs best is the one that governs least.
 
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Bacle

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Thoughts?
The 'Republic' was a democracy in name only, and mostly existed initially as an anti-Hutt/Anti-Tionese defensive pact of former Rakatan slave races that grew larger and larger over time, and had recurring issues with Sith/Dark Jedi invasions/outbreaks, plus the odd plague and the Pius Dea and Mandalorian Crusades.

Oh, and the odd Hapan pirate incident when people went too close to the veil.

Edit: Also, you forget their an old Sith Temple built on a Force Nexus below the temple, and that the Jedi built their temple their to 'purify' the old Sith Ruin, which really turns out to have been a really dumb move.

It's also why Corellian Jedi and those from outlying temples were not as stupid or blind ot the dark side, as the Courscant ivory tower bunch.
 
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Bear Ribs

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Sure.

But all the anti-Palpatine people (both Prequels and later) talk about liberty and democracy. The Republic was never democratic and liberty was fairly questionable most of the time as well.

I mean even if you assume the constituency was individual worlds, the Senate wasn't democratic then either considering how Sectors worked and how Senators were selected. Very convenient that the same world would basically always select the Sector Senator.

Don't get me wrong, Democracy is about the worst way imaginable to run a galaxy spanning polity. The best case democracy can hope for is operating at the planetary level and using layered government to get to a workable leader (the worlds elected government selects representatives to a relatively small Sector legislature, which does the same thing for a larger Oversector, which does the same thing for the galactic legislature.

But all the anti-Palpatine people claim they are "restoring Democracy" when it never existed and what they actually mean is restorting their aristocratic, oligarchical, asses to the seats of power that they had gotten accustomed too over thousands of years and that they had repeatedly proven themselves spectacularly unsuited to hold.
They're using "Democracy" in the same sense the Democratic People's Republic of Korea do?
 

Emperor Tippy

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It's a confederation. I mean, you cite Alderaan, but that's one member. The expanded universe shows other members with totally different governments, like one where all decisions are reached via consensus.

And that's the point. The Republic isn't a democracy, that's true, but it's not an aristocratic oligarchy, either. Some of its members are.

The Republic is mostly like the United Nations, or the (early, pre-centralisation) European Economic Community. Or maybe a bit like the early USA, under the Articles of Confederation.


"Democracy" was probably a questionable claim, although one may argue that decisions in the Senate were reached via majority vote. Since the Republic is confederal, the central government is the only organ of power that any uniform standard could be applied to -- and the central government, was, within its own sphere, indeed democratic.

Saying "it's not really democratic because the member states aren't all -- or even mostly -- democratic" is a bit of an unfair tactic, because the Republic was always meant to be confederal, and never pretended otherwise. I see the claims about "democracy" as essentially meaning "the central government generally represented the wishes of the constituent states under the Republic, but this is most definitely not the case under the Empire". And that's... well, true.
Except not really. The Senate didn't represent the interests of the vast majority of worlds in the Republic. It represented the interests of the handful that managed to get Senators (generally the most powerful of a given Sector). The Republic nominally had around a million full member worlds, it had a few thousand Senators. And if those Senators were "elected" by the member worlds of a Sector then it appears that it was usually a North Korean style election because the same worlds kept winning for literally thousands of years straight and they always tended to be the most powerful world in the Sector.

This is, because of the above, an unfair assessment. They were trying to restore, above all else, self-determination -- which in practice means "local autonomy" and "a very weak central govenment".

The people aiming for this were, in fact, the best-suited to govern the galaxy, because they wanted to dramatically limit the central government (meaning: their own power). They understood that the government that governs best is the one that governs least.
No, the government that governs best is the one that only governs as much as it has to.

Seeing as the New Republic (any canon) collapsed within a generation into another galaxy spanning war, they really can't be said to be suited to governing the galaxy. And seeing as they are the same people who oversaw Palpatine's rise to power, they can't be said to have ever been particularly suitable.
 

Skallagrim

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Except not really. The Senate didn't represent the interests of the vast majority of worlds in the Republic. It represented the interests of the handful that managed to get Senators (generally the most powerful of a given Sector). The Republic nominally had around a million full member worlds, it had a few thousand Senators. And if those Senators were "elected" by the member worlds of a Sector then it appears that it was usually a North Korean style election because the same worlds kept winning for literally thousands of years straight and they always tended to be the most powerful world in the Sector.
To me, this comes across as just you re-iterating a point I had already refuted. But it seems we have different premises (see below), so you probably don't consider the point "refuted". Nevertheless, I have answered it, and you do not engage with my point at all.

To re-iterate: the Republic is a confederation. How the members elect or appoint their representatives is their concern. Now, you evidently disagree with that idea, but that's still the way it is. Insofar as the central government is concerned with "being a democracy" it is limited to its own internal functioning. The Republic literally cannot compel its members to be democratic, or to select representatives in a prescribed manner. The Republic being unable to do this is a core tenet of the Republic, without which it would not have existed (because too many members would have just refused to join).

You are laying a charge at the feet of the Senate and the governing class of Coruscant, when in fact this is something they cannot and are not supposed to control.

So when you accuse them of being "undemocratic", their entirely reasonable response could be: "We are exactly as democratic as we can be. We have no control over local elections and appointments, but we make sure that the decisions of the central representative body are made in a democratic manner. This is the full extent of our authority."


No, the government that governs best is the one that only governs as much as it has to.
That's how you end up with a Palpatine in charge. Most governments automatically decide that every new power is "necessary", and that's how a famous confederation whose independence was rooted in a tax rebellion has ended up governed by a top-heavy bureaucratic state that employs the largest, most over-funded military apparatus in human history, must suffer a gaggle of unacountable three-letter agencies, and which is now taxed by its own ruling elite to a far greater extent than it ever was by any king across the ocean. I refer, of course, to that tragically deceased republic -- the USA.

The Galactic Republic, all things considered, held up much better. It stayed confederal for a very long time. It had peace for a very long time. Naturally, we are then talking of a fictional polity. But in my view, this situation of "confederal success" is not at all unrealistic: a ruling class that genuinely subscribes to the maxim I proposed will produce such results.

A ruling class that subscribes to your maxim, on the other hand, produces only a constant degeneration. A failure is baked into it.


Seeing as the New Republic (any canon) collapsed within a generation into another galaxy spanning war, they really can't be said to be suited to governing the galaxy.
I don't really care about Disney's fanfic universe. I'll hapily grant that everyone living in that canon is an utter imbecile.

As far as the original continuity is concerned: we have there a fledgling new government, still rebuilding in the aftermath of 25 years of highly destructive despotism and the bloody civil war that was needed to overthrow the centralist tyranny. This new-born system is then faced with an unprecedented extra-galactic invasion, and against all odds manages to beat off the invaders. That's more hits than most would be able to take, you know.


And seeing as they are the same people who oversaw Palpatine's rise to power, they can't be said to have ever been particularly suitable.
The "confederalists", as it were, presided over a thousand years of galactic peace. If you want to lay Palpatine's ascent at their feet (culminating in 25 bad years) you must also credit them with their successes (1000 good years). Which carries the greater weight, would you say?

In fact, as I've outlined in a previous post: the Old Republic lasted for 25 millennia, of which -- at most -- 2000 years can be qualified as "a seriously bad time" for the galaxy. And practically all the "bad times" were directly caused by people imposing (or trying to impose) more centralism. The c. 23 millennia that were peaceful and stable were -- without exception -- times of ardent decentralism.

So, in essence, the debate is long over, and the decentralists have won. Confederalism brings peace and stability, anything else brings tyranny and/or war.
 
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Lord Sovereign

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So, in essence, the debate is long over, and the decentralists have won. Confederalism brings peace and stability, anything else brings tyranny and/or war.
I wouldn't say that.

Once Palpatine and the Sith were out of the picture, the Empire actually functioned quite well for the most part. The Fel Empire is the ideals of the New Order realised imperfectly but in good faith.
 

Skallagrim

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I wouldn't say that.

Once Palpatine and the Sith were out of the picture, the Empire actually functioned quite well for the most part. The Fel Empire is the ideals of the New Order realised imperfectly but in good faith.
I'd argue that it functions specifically because it's a regional state, founded in a (previously) sparsely settled region, populated almost entirely by people who wanted to live in that kind of system.

If they suddenly took over the whole galaxy, it wouldn't work. On the other hand, if the Fel Empire opted to become a memver state of the confederal New Republic, that would work. (Because they'd be able to carry on as before within their own borders, particularly since they'd already abolished Palpatine's anti-alien legislation -- so they wouldn't run afoul of the NR's fundamental laws in that topic, either.)

Conclusion: all sorts of systems are perfectly possible for regional polities, but a unified galaxy-wide government must be radically decentralist if it wants to A) not be a tyranny and B) last in the truly long term.

(This is not to suggest, by the way, that the unified galaxy-wide government must be a republic. If the Fel Empire took over the galaxy and radically decentralised -- becoming a sort of Holy Roman Empire in SPAAAAACE -- they'd be perfectly well-set to keep things running smoothly. The functional difference with the republic, of course, would be zip. The government would work the same way, just with fewer art deco skyscrapers and more fancy uniforms and ballgowns.)
 

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(This is not to suggest, by the way, that the unified galaxy-wide government must be a republic. If the Fel Empire took over the galaxy and radically decentralised -- becoming a sort of Holy Roman Empire in SPAAAAACE -- they'd be perfectly well-set to keep things running smoothly. The functional difference with the republic, of course, would be zip. The government would work the same way, just with fewer art deco skyscrapers and more fancy uniforms and ballgowns.)
Well probably abit more in the way of Moffs being assholes to their local inhabitants.
 

Lord Sovereign

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If the Fel Empire took over the galaxy and radically decentralised -- becoming a sort of Holy Roman Empire in SPAAAAACE --
To be honest you could just have the fully fledged Imperium Romanum in space. Domestically hands off, but has the vast military might to stomp things like the Hutts into a bloody paste and effectively police the Galaxy. Who knows, the Outer Rim might actually enjoy some order and security for once.
 

Skallagrim

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To be honest you could just have the fully fledged Imperium Romanum in space. Domestically hands off, but has the vast military might to stomp things like the Hutts into a bloody paste and effectively police the Galaxy. Who knows, the Outer Rim might actually enjoy some order and security for once.
Certainly, if it actually works the way the Roman Empire did -- as opposed to the way some people imagine it to have been.

I can see that lasting for a decent while, although it would ultimately suffer from the same factors that also brought down the actual Roman Empire. If not for their overly-radical zealotry and alien-hate, the Pius Dea cult could have established this. Likewise, if Revan had managed to stay clear of the Sith influence, he could have been a Caesar.
 

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So why is the Republic called a Democracy?

It's an aristocratic oligarchy.

Organa? Ruled (or one of two ruling Houses) Alderaan for literally twenty five thousand years before Palpatine came along. And this is the champion of "Democracy"?

In reality, what the movies mean by Democracy is the Democracy of literally the most select of the select across the whole of the galaxy. It is a Democracy whose constituency was the Senators - not the people. Senators who, one and all, were literally in not just the top 1% but in the top trillionth of one percent (being conservative).

The Jedi? An order of monks who have supposedly forsworn material possessions and yet locate themselves in, quite literally, some of the most absolutely valuable real estate in the entire galaxy. They could sell the Temple for enough wealth to buy entire Sectors. Imagine how much good they could do with that wealth.

I mean yeah, Palpatine was unapologetically evil and (depending on viewpoint) massively corrupt; but at least he wasn't a raging hypocrite with a delusional world view.

Honestly, I just can't take most of the "pro Republic" ideologues seriously. I suppose it is no surprise that their whole attempt at a New Republic collapses completely within a generation.

Thoughts?
The Old and New Republic were just a s bad as the Empire. Just in different ways. The Empire was a straight up totalitarian state. The New and Old Republic were as you say an oligarchy. They both turn a blind eye to Slavery, They both Tolerated Empires like the Hutts and the Pikes to brutalize their citizens. They have no problem of putting droids in charge of prisoners. And giving those droids to use pain to gain compliance from prisoners. Look at the episode of the Mandalorian Season 2 where a droid threatens Mayfield with physical pain if the didn't immediately go with Cara Dune. And when actual threats to the galaxy come up. They just ignore it until it is too late. Both in Legends and Disney Canon. The Galactic Republic as an entity was better left dead in the dust bin of history.
 

Lord Sovereign

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Certainly, if it actually works the way the Roman Empire did -- as opposed to the way some people imagine it to have been.
Yeah, there are a fair few misunderstandings of the Imperium Romanum. It was aristocratic and autocratic, but it was not a totalitarian state. It wasn't an even authoritarian state for the most part. If you paid your (light) taxes and didn't go directly against the Princeps or break Roman law, basically everything was fine.

I can see that lasting for a decent while,
I can see it lasting a very long time indeed as it would have all the strengths of the Principate minus it's one key flaw: legitimacy. The Fel dynasty are a full blown hereditary monarchy with an organised system of succession and not military dictators playing pretend. Therefore, they could have a shot at being an Imperial dynasty as long lived as the Organas.

That would be a tremendously stabilising and positive force for the Galaxy. And even better, the Fel Empire, as evidenced by aliens donning stormtrooper armour, can provide a uniting Imperial Identity for Galactic Civilisation.

Pax Imperialis my dudes.

It would be magnificent.
 
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Skallagrim

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I can see it lasting a very long time indeed as it would have all the strengths of the Principate minus it's one key flaw: legitimacy. The Fel dynasty are a full blown hereditary monarchy with an organised system of succession and not military dictators playing pretend. Therefore, they could have a shot at being an Imperial dynasty as long lived as the Organas.

That would be a tremendously stabilising and positive force for the Galaxy. And even better, the Fel Empire, as evidenced by aliens donning stormtrooper armour, can provide a uniting Imperial Identity for Galactic Civilisation.

Pax Imperialis my dudes.

It would be magnificent.
The main obstacle in the long term(!) that I see is -- as I said -- the same one that ultimately under-mined the Roman Empire as well. It derives from the basic set-up of the (and indeed any) empire: it is a wealth pump. The periphery is taxed quite heavily, because it is the most recent addition, because its populace is (therefore) mostly non-citizen, and because it is on the frontier and therefore requires dedicated military protection. The revenue flows to the core, where it makes possible the execution of public works (including the infrastructure needed to fully integrate the newest additions to the empire). It also enables the state to furnish and train those excellent legions.

Meanwhile, the citizenry enjoys that low-tax regime you mentioned, and internally, the imperial government can afford to be comfortably hands-off.

All good and well, but as time progresses, the periphery becomes... well, integrated. And the bothersome border tribes are permanently subdued and vassalised. They become the new periphery, and the old periphery becomes part of the core. This is a natural and efficent process. It also works for exactly as long as the empire can keep expanding. Once the empire reaches the limit of expansion, a countdown clock starts ticking. It still has a good few centuries left, but the "last periphery" is soon going to be fully integrated. There will be no new periphery to exploit. From that moment on, taxes start rising. A military crisis occurs, as the traditional oportunities for career advancement ("I have conquered region [X]") dwindle to nothing.

Thus, mid-imperial crisis ensues, and thereafter: the Dominate.

I note that the galaxy has a pretty definitive boundary to expansion. Also known as: the edge of the galaxy.

On the plus side, there re few to no actual competing states (everything is dwarfed by a galactic polity), so the space-empire can extend its life by gradually conquering the Unknown Regions. But once those are well and truly conquered... the party is going to come to an end. It'll be a slow death, but a death nonetheless.

This fate can be avoided by re-organising the empire into a different form, and that form will look quite amazingly like the Old Republic (monarchy optional). The alternative is a Rome-like collapse, followed by "Galactic Dark Ages".
 

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The 'Republic' was a democracy in name only, and mostly existed initially as an anti-Hutt/Anti-Tionese defensive pact of former Rakatan slave races that grew larger and larger over time, and had recurring issues with Sith/Dark Jedi invasions/outbreaks, plus the odd plague and the Pius Dea and Mandalorian Crusades.

Oh, and the odd Hapan pirate incident when people went too close to the veil.

Edit: Also, you forget their an old Sith Temple built on a Force Nexus below the temple, and that the Jedi built their temple their to 'purify' the old Sith Ruin, which really turns out to have been a really dumb move.

It's also why Corellian Jedi and those from outlying temples were not as stupid or blind ot the dark side, as the Coruscant ivory tower bunch.
That was one of the most dumbest, utterly moronic things the Old Jedi did. And, thousands on thousands of years later, it backfired on them massively.
 
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