Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Emperor Tippy]

Mauls lack of death mostly came across to me as lazy writing and an unwillingness to make a new character.

Honestly, I would have probably replaced Maul with Palpatine's apprentice before Maul. Essentially a disposable Sith Assassin/Warrior used by Plagueis/Sidious to remove problems and enforce their will. He failed and was presumed dead (or perhaps faked his death), Maul was his replacement and died on Naboo. Old Apprentice spends the years he was "dead" building up a criminal organization (perhaps many?) and using the chaos of the Clone Wars to do things while wanting Palpatine dead. Perhaps he doesn't become aware of Sidious's true identity until fairly far into the Clone Wars?

 

[Emperor Tippy]

So thoughts on a random idea:

The Rule of Two was more than just an idea, it was also a massive Sith ritual.

A Sith would ritually anoint an Apprentice and bind themselves to several rules in regards to said Apprentice. Mostly the Master has to sincerely teach the Apprentice and can't deliberately engineer the Apprentices death. The Apprentice is bound to loyalty (well the Sith version at least, trying to kill your Master isn't really disloyal for a Sith).

The thing is, the Master is truly the inheritor of the entire lineages power. Members of the Rule of Two don't get to leave Force Ghosts around or the like, instead they all essentially get fed to the inheritor.

When a individual willingly binds themself as the Apprentice and then completes the ritual by becoming the Master, they are also bound to propagate the lineage.

So yes, every generation of Banes line was stronger than the previous and the knowledge was preserved as killing the Master gives the Apprentice access to all of the knowledge of all the previous Masters in the lineage.

Vader kinda broke things, being the anonited Apprentice but returning to the Light before offing his master, rejecting the power, and becoming one with the Force. So Palpatine gets to stick around as a Sith ghost but at the same time, he still has an extant Apprentice (Force Ghost Anakin) and so can't anoint a new Apprentice or pass on the power.

If/when he is properly dead, all of the power and spirits of the whole Bane line all go with him.

Of course, every Master is convinced that their power is superior and so they will be able to overpower their Apprentice when the transfer occurs. And of course they are all wrong (but then they wouldn't be Sith without the self assured arrogance).

The other thing is that while the Banites are incredibly powerful, their spirits are anchored to the lineage and so there are a number of force abilities that they simply can't use; most of the "cheating death" ones that would anchor them to something else really.

So if Vader had killed Palpatine in proper Sith fashion, then he would have had all of the knowledge about Palpatine's contingency plans and Palpatine's spirit would have gone bye bye regardless of the clones.

---
Thoughts?

 

[Bear Ribs]

I like the base idea, and it fixes a lot of issues with how the heck the Rule of Two doesn't result in anemic weakling Sith after a few losses.

It's hard to square with the prequel era, both Palpatine's revolving door of apprentices and things like Savage becoming Maul's apprentice when Palpatine was alive, though. Additionally if one takes things like KOTOR and the Old Republic stuff seriously, the OT-era Sith are anemic weaklings compared to the Sith at their height.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

I like the base idea, and it fixes a lot of issues with how the heck the Rule of Two doesn't result in anemic weakling Sith after a few losses.

It's hard to square with the prequel era, both Palpatine's revolving door of apprentices and things like Savage becoming Maul's apprentice when Palpatine was alive, though. Additionally if one takes things like KOTOR and the Old Republic stuff seriously, the OT-era Sith are anemic weaklings compared to the Sith at their height.

For Maul and even Dooku, my explanation would be that they weren't ever actually proper Apprentices (regardless of what they thought).

The only one that Palpatine ever had properly anointed as his Apprentice was Anakin as Vader.

Remember that Maul was around when Plagueis was still alive, so Palpatine wasn't the Master at the time and thus couldn't induct him. And Dooku was just an old patsy always destined to be thrown away once Anakin was ready.

---
The power issue runs into the fact that canonically, Palpatine is supposed to be the most powerful Sith ever and the Bainites were canonically getting more powerful generation after generation, with Bane (as the starting point) already being a fairly top tier power.

My personal headcanon is that Power doesn't mean Knowledge. The old Sith had tons more knowledge than Bane or his lineage ever did, and a hell of a lot more experience.

I mean if Palpatine ran around eating planets, the Jedi would have noticed and suddenly it is Palpatine versus the entire Jedi Order in open combat. It wasn't really until after Order 66 that any of the Bainites got to really cut loose and try to utilize those kind of flashy powers.

And then, why bother? Palpatine already ruled the galaxy. He doesn't need to do things like telekinetically throw around star destroyers.

Although if you go outside the books, Palpatine as Emperor does do some fairly massive force things. Like the time he literally mind raped Corsucant into not noticing as he ripped up the capital, buried a Super Star Destroyer underneath it, and then rebuilt the city on top of it. This was literally the galactic capital and he kept everyone, and everything, from noticing.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Although if you go outside the books, Palpatine as Emperor does do some fairly massive force things. Like the time he literally mind raped Corsucant into not noticing as he ripped up the capital, buried a Super Star Destroyer underneath it, and then rebuilt the city on top of it. This was literally the galactic capital and he kept everyone, and everything, from noticing.

IIRC, that was only speculation by the New Republic as to how the hell Lusankya got buried on Coruscant, the other alternative discussed being "simply" executing or otherwise silencing everyone who ever saw it.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

IIRC, that was only speculation by the New Republic as to how the hell Lusankya got buried on Coruscant, the other alternative discussed being "simply" executing or otherwise silencing everyone who ever saw it.

It was a Super Star Destroyer landed in literally the center of the Imperial Capital. Within line of sight of the Imperial Palace itself.

They cleared an area roughly twenty kilometers long and a few wide of all structures - this being literally the most expensive real estate in the entire galaxy - and flew a Super Star Destroyer down into it. Through some of the most secure airspace in the galaxy and on the planet with the most air and space traffic in the explored galaxy. Then they rebuilt the structures back over it.

Unless Palpatine killed literally billions of the wealthiest, most connected, most powerful people in his Empire to conceal the Lusankya then he manipulated their minds.

 

[Bear Ribs]

The former canon explanation was that the Lusankya was disguised as a backup planetary shield generator by wrapping it in a disguising shell of girders and then floated into place under everybody's noses, no murder or mind control needed.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

The biggest issue with the republic at least by the end was the fact that the Republic Didn't have a military and all attempts for systems to create their own local armies was squashed by Corporations.

I don't believe that's correct -- individual systems under the Republic had full authority to create whatever local military forces they pleased. While most systems did not have large defense forces due to literal centuries of peace, minimally armed systems like Naboo and fully disarmed ones like Alderaan were the exception, not the rule.

(The Alderaanians were, in any case, self-righteous idiots about this.)

In the days where the Old Republic had an army, (men and women so tough the clones would have been proud to fight along side them) and/or when the Jedi allowed their masters to rule over planets as Lords, (Had he not turned Dooku probably would have felt much more at home with the likes of Lord Hoth and The Army of Light) criminal and corrupt organizations like the Hutts and Czertek were still around but they didn't have the Republic over a barrel as we see in the Twilight of The Republic.

The problem with the whole "Jedi Lord" business is that benevolent dictatorships rarely stay benevolent for more than one or two generations.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

I don't believe that's correct -- individual systems under the Republic had full authority to create whatever local military forces they pleased. While most systems did not have large defense forces due to literal centuries of peace, minimally armed systems like Naboo and fully disarmed ones like Alderaan were the exception, not the rule.

(The Alderaanians were, in any case, self-righteous idiots about this.)

Ruusan Reformation limited local military forces as well.

The bigger issue was that, post Ruusan, the Republic's central government effectively gave up any ability to actually use force as a practical matter to enforce its will or serve its ends. Local forces could be called up and nationalized for the duration, but doing so required a full Senate vote for the call up and whatever systems were called up could veto sending their forces.

The system worked well enough if it faced a major war from outside, but it failed spectacularly when it came to anything internal or needing a fast response.

The problem with the whole "Jedi Lord" business is that benevolent dictatorships rarely stay benevolent for more than one or two generations.

The problem with the Jedi Lords business was that the galaxy had been under the effectively sole control of the Jedi for around four hundred years to fight a war and it was finally over with the total destruction of the enemy.

That a large number of the more important Jedi Lords had also just gotten themselves killed didn't help.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

The bigger issue was that, post Ruusan, the Republic's central government effectively gave up any ability to actually use force as a practical matter to enforce its will or serve its ends.

I would make the partial counterpoint that even in this past era, the Republic central government never had much ability to use force. The private military of the Jedi Order was the preeminent military force of the era even before it was actually used in battle against the Sith, and pretty much meant that the "Republic" only had authority in matters the Jedi deemed unworthy of their attention.

In effect, the Republic was little more than the colonial administration of a galaxy that was passively but absolutely dominated by the Jedi as a paramilitary religious oligarchy, then devolved even further into a loose coalition of direct hands-on pocket dictatorships under the Jedi Lords. Yet the only difference between the Jedi Lord era and the preceding era was the Jedi becoming active rather than passive.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

So more a comment on the SW community than the media itself.

People don't get just how rare the main characters are. Jedi, Sith, Galactic Senators, ship captains, bounty hunters, etc.

They all, collectively, make up the smallest fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the total galactic population.

The mere act of meeting a Jedi is a rarity comparable to winning the lottery in real life even in the time of the Republic.

That someone owns their own hyper capable star ship? That already makes them, objectively, one of the wealthiest people in the galaxy.

Galactic communication is another big area that people overlook. There is no galactic internet.

Even real time galactic communication is a relatively extreme luxury item. Yes, the Jedi, Senators, and the very upper crust have easy access to the HoloNet to use but for most people even a brief call is a massive expense if they can even get access.

Remember, the HoloNet is a bandwidth limited medium and the infrastructure costs for it are phenomenal. What bandwidth isn't reserved for various governmental needs is auctioned off to "private" citizens and the various interstellar corporations are the ones who buy up basically all the slots.

A better way to think about SW communications and travel is the US around 1900 or so. With trains and telegraphs being how information and messages move. If your desired destination is on the route then travel is incredibly rapid (if you can afford the ticket), but even going a relatively little ways off the route throws you back onto the horse.

Today you can talk to anyone, anywhere, on the planet in real time and at a cost so cheap as to be essentially free. You can also travel to basically anywhere you want within two days at a (relatively) minimal cost.

That isn't Star Wars.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

So more a comment on the SW community than the media itself.

People don't get just how rare the main characters are. Jedi, Sith, Galactic Senators, ship captains, bounty hunters, etc.

They all, collectively, make up the smallest fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the total galactic population.

The mere act of meeting a Jedi is a rarity comparable to winning the lottery in real life even in the time of the Republic.

That someone owns their own hyper capable star ship? That already makes them, objectively, one of the wealthiest people in the galaxy.

Galactic communication is another big area that people overlook. There is no galactic internet.

Even real time galactic communication is a relatively extreme luxury item. Yes, the Jedi, Senators, and the very upper crust have easy access to the HoloNet to use but for most people even a brief call is a massive expense if they can even get access.

Remember, the HoloNet is a bandwidth limited medium and the infrastructure costs for it are phenomenal. What bandwidth isn't reserved for various governmental needs is auctioned off to "private" citizens and the various interstellar corporations are the ones who buy up basically all the slots.

A better way to think about SW communications and travel is the US around 1900 or so. With trains and telegraphs being how information and messages move. If your desired destination is on the route then travel is incredibly rapid (if you can afford the ticket), but even going a relatively little ways off the route throws you back onto the horse.

Today you can talk to anyone, anywhere, on the planet in real time and at a cost so cheap as to be essentially free. You can also travel to basically anywhere you want within two days at a (relatively) minimal cost.

That isn't Star Wars.

Awww but where's the fun in random human boy gets up eats breakfast goes to his imperial education camp, bullies some random alien eats supper goes to bed rinse wash repeat? I mean it may make for a good short film but it wouldn't be enough to carry a film. Those factions of percent characters are the only thing that separates Star Wars from every other random generic sci-fi universe and war film out there. hence why all attempts at breaking from them have failed miserably. Common people are as boring as watching paint dry and make for dismal theater.

I can't speak for everyone else, but as for myself, I can say I am aware of how rare these things are supposed to be. I just don't care

 

[Bacle]

Mauls lack of death mostly came across to me as lazy writing and an unwillingness to make a new character.

Honestly, I would have probably replaced Maul with Palpatine's apprentice before Maul. Essentially a disposable Sith Assassin/Warrior used by Plagueis/Sidious to remove problems and enforce their will. He failed and was presumed dead (or perhaps faked his death), Maul was his replacement and died on Naboo. Old Apprentice spends the years he was "dead" building up a criminal organization (perhaps many?) and using the chaos of the Clone Wars to do things while wanting Palpatine dead. Perhaps he doesn't become aware of Sidious's true identity until fairly far into the Clone Wars?

So you want to replace Maul with Vergere...I see no issue with that.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

Awww but where's the fun in random human boy gets up eats breakfast goes to his imperial education camp, bullies some random alien eats supper goes to bed rinse wash repeat? I mean it may make for a good short film but it wouldn't be enough to carry a film. Those factions of percent characters are the only thing that separates Star Wars from every other random generic sci-fi universe and war film out there. hence why all attempts at breaking from them have failed miserably. Common people are as boring as watching paint dry and make for dismal theater.

I can't speak for everyone else, but as for myself, I can say I am aware of how rare these things are supposed to be. I just don't care

No, my issue isn't on the story being focused on the rare individuals; it is the failure to realize that they are doing so.

Like the Jedi pre-clone wars? They numbered ten thousand or so.

Just compared to "trillion" number for Coruscant, the Jedi are 0.000001% of the population.

Out of a population of ten billion, that would be a hundred people. Billionaire's on earth are more than thirty times as common as such Jedi would be.

Now remember that you are talking ten thousand out of a galactic population in the quadrillions.

Being someone who *matters* on a galactic scale makes an individual rare basically beyond our ability to truly comprehend.

Think about Jango, and later Bobba, Fett. This is a man who rose to the ranks of being talked about when people would debate who the best combatant in the entire galaxy was.

Non-Force users who can present a challenge to a Jedi? These aren't the one in a million, or the one in a billion. They are the one in a trillion (or even rarer).

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

it is the failure to realize that they are doing so.

what do you mean?

Non-Force users who can present a challenge to a Jedi? These aren't the one in a million, or the one in a billion. They are the one in a trillion (or even rarer).

Does that mean the galaxy wouldn't have cared about Alderaan if Bail wasn't among the dead? Also could it be argue that the setting of Star Wars is too big? Like instead of taking place in an entire galaxy it maybe should have only taken place in a couple of solar systems? (if that many?)

 

[Emperor Tippy]

what do you mean?

Think about the Rebel Alliance. Out of a galaxy of a quadrillion or so beings, they numbered what? A few million at the absolute high end?

And that number is including informers and the like. In terms of people engaged in active combat operations they were substantially less.

Bail, Leia, Mon Mothma, Ackbar, etc. were so utterly removed from the common citizen of the galaxy that about the most you can say they had in common is that both groups ate, shit, and breathed air.

The Empire was evil, but for the average person on the street? Nothing at all really changed.

For those active in the galaxy, tons changed. But for the average person on the street?

Take Rogue Squadron. These were literally the absolute best pilots that the Rebellion had. If they weren't then they would never have been on the same base as the leadership of the entire Rebellion and acting under their direct command like they were. So of course they are going to be able to run rings around the Imperials.

Basically, no one we see is representative of the galactic norm.

And yet a lot of the time the community treats them like they are. Han is, even before he meets Obi-Wan and Luke, considered one of the best smugglers in the galaxy. His rolodex is a whose who of the galaxies criminal element and organizations. He was personally smuggling spice for Jabba by the ship load. Jabba the Hutt, one of the five or so most powerful crime lords in the galaxy, was *personally* hiring Han for jobs.

So yes, Han can show up on a planet and be meeting face to face with the biggest criminals on the planet in a few hours or days. Not just because he knows who to talk to but because everyone who is anyone in the underworld knows who he is and his skills are both useful and proven. The mere fact that Han Solo came to that person for something is a massive reputation boost to them. The favors game? Well Han can provide an introduction to basically anyone who is anyone in the underworld.

Does that mean the galaxy wouldn't have cared about Alderaan if Bail wasn't among the dead? Also could it be argue that the setting of Star Wars is too big? Like instead of taking place in an entire galaxy it maybe should have only taken place in a couple of solar systems? (if that many?)

Of course not. Alderaan was a founding member of the Republic and one of the leading Core Worlds. It was also one of the wealthiest worlds, per capita, in the entire galaxy. Poor on Alderaan was still staggeringly wealthy compared to the galactic average.

And no, the issue isn't that Star Wars is too big. It's simply that the scale is often overlooked or not considered when people discuss Star Wars.

Creators of SW media are often guilty of this as well.

I mean think about an ISD Captain. Everyone who got that position, all twenty five thousand of them, is there for a reason. If they are connected, those connections are too literally the highest of levels in the entire galaxy. If they are there on merit then it is because they distinguished themselves on that scale.

Vader killing Imperial officers who displease him? Why should anyone care, there is literally a thousand people eager to step into the dead man's shoes.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Think about the Rebel Alliance. Out of a galaxy of a quadrillion or so beings, they numbered what? A few million at the absolute high end?

And that number is including informers and the like. In terms of people engaged in active combat operations they were substantially less.

Bail, Leia, Mon Mothma, Ackbar, etc. were so utterly removed from the common citizen of the galaxy that about the most you can say they had in common is that both groups ate, shit, and breathed air.

The Empire was evil, but for the average person on the street? Nothing at all really changed.

For those active in the galaxy, tons changed. But for the average person on the street?

Take Rogue Squadron. These were literally the absolute best pilots that the Rebellion had. If they weren't then they would never have been on the same base as the leadership of the entire Rebellion and acting under their direct command like they were. So of course they are going to be able to run rings around the Imperials.

Basically, no one we see is representative of the galactic norm.

And yet a lot of the time the community treats them like they are. Han is, even before he meets Obi-Wan and Luke, considered one of the best smugglers in the galaxy. His rolodex is a whose who of the galaxies criminal element and organizations. He was personally smuggling spice for Jabba by the ship load. Jabba the Hutt, one of the five or so most powerful crime lords in the galaxy, was *personally* hiring Han for jobs.

So yes, Han can show up on a planet and be meeting face to face with the biggest criminals on the planet in a few hours or days. Not just because he knows who to talk to but because everyone who is anyone in the underworld knows who he is and his skills are both useful and proven. The mere fact that Han Solo came to that person for something is a massive reputation boost to them. The favors game? Well Han can provide an introduction to basically anyone who is anyone in the underworld.


Of course not. Alderaan was a founding member of the Republic and one of the leading Core Worlds. It was also one of the wealthiest worlds, per capita, in the entire galaxy. Poor on Alderaan was still staggeringly wealthy compared to the galactic average.

And no, the issue isn't that Star Wars is too big. It's simply that the scale is often overlooked or not considered when people discuss Star Wars.

Creators of SW media are often guilty of this as well.

I mean think about an ISD Captain. Everyone who got that position, all twenty five thousand of them, is there for a reason. If they are connected, those connections are too literally the highest of levels in the entire galaxy. If they are there on merit then it is because they distinguished themselves on that scale.

Vader killing Imperial officers who displease him? Why should anyone care, there is literally a thousand people eager to step into the dead man's shoes.

so what's your solution?

 

[AspblastUSA]

I mean think about an ISD Captain. Everyone who got that position, all twenty five thousand of them, is there for a reason. If they are connected, those connections are too literally the highest of levels in the entire galaxy. If they are there on merit then it is because they distinguished themselves on that scale.

Vader killing Imperial officers who displease him? Why should anyone care, there is literally a thousand people eager to step into the dead man's shoes.

Aren't these at least somewhat contradictory statements? The people who care would be the very same connections that got them the position in the first place, at least in the case of those not placed on merit alone. That would suggest Vader would have quite a few enemies in the Imperial Elite by the time of the movies.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

so what's your solution?

I don't really see it as a problem. My issue is with people just not really bothering to think about it.

Aren't these at least somewhat contradictory statements? The people who care would be the very same connections that got them the position in the first place, at least in the case of those not placed on merit alone. That would suggest Vader would have quite a few enemies in the Imperial Elite by the time of the movies.

Vader did have quite a few enemies in the Imperial Elite. If you look at any of the EU stuff, he was basically notorious for really despising and hating politics.

And if you had a problem with Vader killing your incompetent son who you used your connections to make a Captain, then Vader has zero problem killing your entire family as punishment for inflicting your incompetent son on him in the first place.

Vader is feared among the elite as much, if not more, than he is feared among any other group. They have zero hooks on him. Assassinate him? The Force makes that effectively impossible. Deceive him? Again, the Force makes that basically impossible. Pressure him through others? He doesn't give a solitary damn about anyone else. Unless you are important enough to get the Emperor to actively and specifically restrain Vader from acting, Vader is free to kill you on a whim.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Unless you are important enough to get the Emperor to actively and specifically restrain Vader from acting, Vader is free to kill you on a whim.

SEE: GRAND MOFF TARKIN