Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Bassoe]

Failing that, is there a summary?

Palpatine is found dead of unknown causes in his palace, a bit before ANH. Cue power struggle, blame shifting and comedy.

Probably the closest to your reformist would actually be Vader of all people, he's technically next in line of succession what with the Rule of Two and he can bluff that everything was deliberate and he knew and planned everything going on and everyone within choking range is too scared to call him on it.

 

[Husky_Khan]

I still like the version of the "Clone Wars" hinted at by Zahn in the Thrawn trilogy way better than what we actually got from George Lucas.

The Clones were barely mentioned in the Zahn books besides the early ones being unstable and that it was implied that they fought against the Republic IIRC. Oh and that it took place like sixteen years earlier then it did, thirty five years instead of twenty.

The main benefit of the EU version of the Clone Wars is that it's mostly undefined so you can fill it in with whatever impressions you want from the scant implications of this devastating conflict that occurred in the recent past, not off of any inherent aspects of the EU version of the Clone Wars since it was so ill defined.

 

[Skallagrim]

I still like the version of the "Clone Wars" hinted at by Zahn in the Thrawn trilogy way better than what we actually got from George Lucas.

I do think the clones should have been "the enemy", because wars are typically named by the winner after the party they were fighting against. The USA fought the (then-known-as-the) Mexican War, and the repeated wars against Native Americans were called the Indian Wars. The wars now called the Anglo-Dutch Wars were called the Dutch Wars by the English and the English Wars by the Dutch. And obviously the Greeks fought the Persian Wars against the Persians, and the Romans fought the Macedonian Wars against Macedon and the Punic Wars against (Punic) Carthage.

Clone Wars, logically, should be fought against clones.

Failing that, an alternative is to have both sides use clones extensively -- making it the defining feature of these conflicts.

Which is another point: conflicts, multiple. Clone Wars is plural. What we ultimately got was a Clone War. I was expecting a series of wars, covering a longer period. Zahn also often mentioned it as "the Clone Wars period", as if it was a whole historical era.

Of course, Lucas gave Zahn his early ideas, which put the end of the wars 10-15 years earlier. I think you could easily paper over most issues by actually having there be multiple clone wars over a period of several decades, fought by the Republic against one or more external foes -- that should then rely on clone legions to actually endanger the (otherwise overwhelmingly vast) Republic.

This can also be used to reconcile multiple accounts of who the baddies are. You can have wars against renegade "clone masters" and against expansionist Mandos using cloned "supercommandos".

 

[f1onagher]

I thought I'd share some conjecture on the nature of Star Wars in our culture. The guy in the video compares it to a modern day myth where collective mutation and storytelling defines something back upon itself and that Disney may own the rights to profit from Star Wars, but don't really own the myth since its so prevalent.

I also want to see his channel do better.

 

[DarthOne]

I thought I'd share some conjecture on the nature of Star Wars in our culture. The guy in the video compares it to a modern day myth where collective mutation and storytelling defines something back upon itself and that Disney may own the rights to profit from Star Wars, but don't really own the myth since its so prevalent.

I also want to see his channel do better.

Good stuff. He did a nice video on Cobra from GI Joe as well.

 

[DarthOne]

Interesting

 

[Captain X]

The Clones were barely mentioned in the Zahn books besides the early ones being unstable and that it was implied that they fought against the Republic IIRC. Oh and that it took place like sixteen years earlier then it did, thirty five years instead of twenty.

Which makes sense because Obi-Wan was an old man in ANH, and usually, at least on this side of the pond, we tend to name our wars after who we fought in them (i.e. The French and Indian War). George Lucas kind of ignored the fact that the timing didn't quite work out, and the fact that the war that finally happened in the PT probably could have just as well been called "The Separatist War" or something along those lines with how he presented it. Meanwhile Zahn hinted at some kind of warlord faction creating clones that were inherently unstable, and that the war against them had been a pretty difficult one. Even those scant hints were more interesting to me than what came to be with the PT.

 

[evilchumlee]

Which makes sense because Obi-Wan was an old man in ANH, and usually, at least on this side of the pond, we tend to name our wars after who we fought in them (i.e. The French and Indian War). George Lucas kind of ignored the fact that the timing didn't quite work out, and the fact that the war that finally happened in the PT probably could have just as well been called "The Separatist War" or something along those lines with how he presented it. Meanwhile Zahn hinted at some kind of warlord faction creating clones that were inherently unstable, and that the war against them had been a pretty difficult one. Even those scant hints were more interesting to me than what came to be with the PT.

My old 90's kid headcanon was that The Clone Wars were the Republic, fighting against the Mandalorians, who were clones. The Republic was losing and needed to do something drastic, so Palpatine was able to seize power and create the Empire to push back against the Mandalorian clones.

Young 90's me didn't connect the Jedi purge to the Clone Wars. It was something that happened after.

I at least got a Mandalorian connection right.

Palpatine is found dead of unknown causes in his palace, a bit before ANH. Cue power struggle, blame shifting and comedy.

Probably the closest to your reformist would actually be Vader of all people, he's technically next in line of succession what with the Rule of Two and he can bluff that everything was deliberate and he knew and planned everything going on and everyone within choking range is too scared to call him on it.

Vader is too far gone by ANH.

He might be slightly less outright, mustache twirling evil than Palpatine but he's still pretty terrible. There might some moderate reforms here and there but overall I don't see much changing. Vader might have a bit more foresight that he won't live forever and create some kind of mechanism for succession.

My hot take on the Empire though is that... I don't really Palpatine was doing much in the way of day to day governing. He was too busy with Sith-things and some high level stuff. Most of why the Empire is as terrible as it is comes from... the rest of the people who run the Empire. The whole xenophobic thing strikes me as more of a general Imperial culture thing over something handed down by Palpatine... he kind of hates everyone equally, but he seems to have no issue with aliens personally. A former apprentice, Maul was an alien. Mas Amedda, his Vizier, was an alien. Thrawn, basically hand picked by Palpatine for promotion, was an alien.

I really think the xenophobia came from... the people. It's an oddity about Star Wars that despite being so heavily focused on rebellions and resistances, a good chunk of the people of the galaxy seem to actually want something like the Empire.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

I really think the xenophobia came from... the people. It's an oddity about Star Wars that despite being so heavily focused on rebellions and resistances, a good chunk of the people of the galaxy seem to actually want something like the Empire.

And I am pretty sure that is more of a Core and maybe Mid-rim ideology, from what I can tell Outer Rim humans tend to be less xenophobic than people from the Metropole. At least from what I remember. Such as that student from the Sith academy speaking Huttese in KOTOR. And xenophobia being stated to be more prevalent in the Core. Which is quite ironic, as it flips the typical stereotype.

Makes me think of things like this

Jim the human moisture farmer: Fucking thieving Jawas, fucking savage Tuskens. Sandnerfs the lot of them! *spits on the ground*
*tentacled horror walks by*
Jim: Oh, hey Bob, how is the family doing
Bob: *inhuman screeching*
Jim: That is good, tell the wife I said, hi
Bob: *inhuman screeching* hAvE a GoOd DaY jIm.

Or this,

Outer-rim Human: You know maybe we should treat aliens by the content of their character like we do other humans,
Core Human: *REEEEEEEEE* BUT THEY ARE SUB-HUMAN *REEEE*

 

[f1onagher]

My hot take on the Empire though is that... I don't really Palpatine was doing much in the way of day to day governing. He was too busy with Sith-things and some high level stuff. Most of why the Empire is as terrible as it is comes from... the rest of the people who run the Empire. The whole xenophobic thing strikes me as more of a general Imperial culture thing over something handed down by Palpatine... he kind of hates everyone equally, but he seems to have no issue with aliens personally. A former apprentice, Maul was an alien. Mas Amedda, his Vizier, was an alien. Thrawn, basically hand picked by Palpatine for promotion, was an alien.

I really think the xenophobia came from... the people. It's an oddity about Star Wars that despite being so heavily focused on rebellions and resistances, a good chunk of the people of the galaxy seem to actually want something like the Empire.

It's called High Human Culture. I don't remember when it became part of the lore but it's a belief system of racial superiority that places humans at the top and core humans above other humans. It is blatantly sci-fi Nazi stuff and Palpatine used its adherents as his primary underlings to secure control over the core and ensure that his subordinates could never form a popular revolt since they explicitly saw the majority of the population as beneath them.

I don't remember too many details, but I do remember in the original sequel comics (the ones with Cade Skywalker) that the Sith used them again to undermine the by-then equal opportunity Imperium.

But basically, most Star Wars politics boil down to the Core thinking the rest of the galaxy owes them their resources.

 

[Bigking321]

But basically, most Star Wars politics boil down to the Core thinking the rest of the galaxy owes them their resources.

So about how current day cities feel about rural areas? That the cities are what is actually important and everything else is flyover country and worthless backwater?

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

It's called High Human Culture. I don't remember when it became part of the lore but it's a belief system of racial superiority that places humans at the top and core humans above other humans. It is blatantly sci-fi Nazi stuff and Palpatine used its adherents as his primary underlings to secure control over the core and ensure that his subordinates could never form a popular revolt since they explicitly saw the majority of the population as beneath them.

I don't remember too many details, but I do remember in the original sequel comics (the ones with Cade Skywalker) that the Sith used them again to undermine the by-then equal opportunity Imperium.

But basically, most Star Wars politics boil down to the Core thinking the rest of the galaxy owes them their resources.

Then I think I made a mistake, it should be

Core Human: *REEEEEEEEE* BUT THEY ARE SUB-HUMAN *REEEE* SHUT THE FUCK UP RIM-RAT *REEEE*

I forgot how that bit, and now I remember another reason I support the CIS. Or rather the people who aren't the evil corporates...so everyone else in the faction including the non-evil corporates (which appear to exist).

 

[DarthOne]

So about how current day cities feel about rural areas? That the cities are what is actually important and everything else is flyover country and worthless backwater?

And you see why I like the idea of the CIS that wasn’t a Sith puppet.

 

[stephen the barbarian]

Jim the human moisture farmer: Fucking thieving Jawas, fucking savage Tuskens. Sandnerfs the lot of them! *spits on the ground*
*tentacled horror walks by*
Jim: Oh, hey Bob, how is the family doing
Bob: *inhuman screeching*
Jim: That is good, tell the wife I said, hi
Bob: *inhuman screeching* hAvE a GoOd DaY jIm.

Outer-rim Human: You know maybe we should treat aliens by the content of their character like we do other humans,
Core Human: *REEEEEEEEE* BUT THEY ARE SUB-HUMAN *REEEE*

that is my uncle to a T. he will spend hours bitching about shit, but he will move heaven and earth to help anyone who needs it.

 

[evilchumlee]

So about how current day cities feel about rural areas? That the cities are what is actually important and everything else is flyover country and worthless backwater?

Sort of, yes. Although some attitudes are reversed...

It's the backwater, rural people in Star Wars who are less racist. They encounter aliens more often. The more people interact with those different than them, the less racist they tend to be.

Those Core Worlders don't have to worry about all those aliens as much.

It's called High Human Culture. I don't remember when it became part of the lore but it's a belief system of racial superiority that places humans at the top and core humans above other humans. It is blatantly sci-fi Nazi stuff and Palpatine used its adherents as his primary underlings to secure control over the core and ensure that his subordinates could never form a popular revolt since they explicitly saw the majority of the population as beneath them.

I do remember reading something about them. If I recall, they also speak High Galactic which is... English.

I think they're slightly less fascist and more... aristocratic. Star Wars humans tend to lean towards monarchical systems with establish nobility and aristocracy. That also tends to be breed superiority.

 

[f1onagher]

So about how current day cities feel about rural areas? That the cities are what is actually important and everything else is flyover country and worthless backwater?

More or less. It's important to remember that the Republic is old and that in its golden years, it was largely just a Coreward polity. These worlds and systems are millennia old and tapped out their development before Yoda was out of diapers. They pushed the colonization and discovery of the mid and outer Rim explicitly to expand their markets and gain access to fresh resources and like most mother nations think that their colonies owe them for existence.

Of course, the Rims have native peoples along with groups of pioneers that explicitly tried to flee the Core and both of these parties were always at least passively resentful of the Core's intrusion. And that's before you get to the part where most colonies eventually want to develop for their own benefit, not just their founders'. The crisis that led up to the Trade Federation blockade of Naboo was largely due to the Republic attempting to address the economic disparities between the Core and Rim, but like most governmental economic meddling introduced a new set of toxic incentives, namely encouraging mega-corps to move out into the Rim to take advantage of the economic breaks offered to the Rim as a sop.

So yes, it is a galactic urban/rural divide, but more akin to say Alberta wanting to spend all its resources on itself rather than propping up the Canadian economy for the benefit of Ottawa.

As an additional note what makes this situation worse is that it's unnecessary. Setting aside that most political discourse in Star Wars is based on our own, planetary-level understanding of things, it's heavily implied that there are still plenty of resources available in the Core, but navigating the deep Core is dangerous and thus expensive. This means that the Core has now fought at least two Civil Wars minimum to keep their Chinese sweatshops/Dixie cotton farms/Congalese cobalt mines rather than invest in expensive local manufacturing.

Sort of, yes. Although some attitudes are reversed...

It's the backwater, rural people in Star Wars who are less racist. They encounter aliens more often. The more people interact with those different than them, the less racist they tend to be.

Those Core Worlders don't have to worry about all those aliens as much.



I do remember reading something about them. If I recall, they also speak High Galactic which is... English.

I think they're slightly less fascist and more... aristocratic. Star Wars humans tend to lean towards monarchical systems with establish nobility and aristocracy. That also tends to be breed superiority.

That's mostly correct, but has a few granularities. For most of the Core aristocracy their fellow Core worlds, alien or human, are superior to the barbarians in the Rim. High Human Culture explicitly cuts even coreward aliens out of the "In" club in favor of humans, who being the most populous single species must be the superior one.

 

[evilchumlee]

That's mostly correct, but has a few granularities. For most of the Core aristocracy their fellow Core worlds, alien or human, are superior to the barbarians in the Rim. High Human Culture explicitly cuts even coreward aliens out of the "In" club in favor of humans, who being the most populous single species must be the superior one.

Well yeah.

It does very much seem like more Coreward aliens can get something of a pass, even if the High Humans will still consider them less. Mas Amedda is the best example. He's literally the second most powerful person in the Empire.

Even Thrawn, in canon now, had less of an issue because he was an alien and more of an issue because people felt like he didn't earn it. The Emperor just kind of gushed over him and, from many in the Navy's perspective, just handed him everything on a silver platter. That's not REALLY true... he did have to work super hard, but the Emperor absolutely was a big fan.

 

[Bigking321]

Sort of, yes. Although some attitudes are reversed...

It's the backwater, rural people in Star Wars who are less racist. They encounter aliens more often. The more people interact with those different than them, the less racist they tend to be.

I don't disagree with this but I very much disagree with implying that irl the rural areas are more racist.

We have cities right now with official policies that openly discriminate against or for people based on their skin color. Just out in the open obvious racism.

That definitely feels like what you're saying about the core worlds.

 

[evilchumlee]

I don't disagree with this but I very much disagree with implying that irl the rural areas are more racist.

We have cities right now with official policies that openly discriminate against or for people based on their skin color. Just out in the open obvious racism.

Both have their issues... but living in a semi-rural, predominantly white area while frequenting two major cities... there's a significant difference.

The biggest difference is intent. Cities can absolutely be racist against white people. I know what your saying, no need to be coy. The intent is generally not malicious, it's meant to help people... they just go about it the wrong way.

Rural racism is much more... hostile. I know people who are very comfortable dropping hard-r n-bombs. I see open hostile racism all the time. I have alot of red hat Cult 45ers around here and the shit that comes out of their mouths can be baffling.

But that's really a conversation for another thread. I'd be happy to discuss elsewhere.

 

[Skallagrim]

Part of what makes things a bit hard to follow in SW is that Lucas has, uh... roughly zero grasp of socio-economic reality. This is where his left-wing attitudes shine through the most. His idea for the Clone Wars was essentially: "like the US Civil War, but instead of slavers seceding, it's evil corporations... and instead of Lincoln, you have Hitler pretending to be Lincoln".

And this makes no sense.

Everything tells us that the corporations already control the Republic, and just as the megacorps have the centre of their power in the urbanised regions in the actual world, the galactic megacorps are centred in the Core. A realistic CIS would be a movement opposing exploitation by the Core, and thus opposing the megacorps.

Dooku, an aristocrat, does make sense as a leader for them. That does track with the actual essence of the US Civil War: capitalist-industrial urbanism versus aristocratic-agrarian ruralism. Lucas didn't grasp that context, and just went for "Republicans bad, capitalism just like slavery, hurr durr". But realistically, the CIS should be socially reactionary, anti-corporate, and dedicated to "Systems' Rights", while ideologically advocating for traditional forms of governance (e.g. aristocracy) as opposed to "democracies that are just bought by the plutocrats".

Consider it like this: if the Core is the economic heart of the galaxy, and most people live there, then even a successful secession is bad for supposed CIS megacorps. At best, their biggest market is now behind a tariff wall. At worst, they face an embargo. But now suppose a more realistic idea: that the over-populated Core relies on the Rim for food and for raw materials? And then the Rim secedes! The Core would then oppose secession because it means their economic ruination-- if not outright starvation! So of course they vote for Adolf Abraham Palpatine, who promises that the "galactic union will never be torn asunder!"

That makes sense.