Tanks and other Armoured Vehicles Image thread.

[Marduk]

Not exactly a spotter...
With some newest missiles, just need to know the general area they are in.
Then launch a fire and forget missile like Brimstone, Hellfire Longbow or some Spike models, programmed to go to said area, turn on its seeker (IR or active radar usually), which looks for targets resembling what is known to be there, and attacks what it finds.

Btw many anti-ship missiles work that way since a long time, anyone who played Harpoon or its newer incarnations knows this.

 

[Aldarion]

You don't neeed LOS to spot SPAAG....
You can use OTH radar, you can use HARMs and my favorite, ELINT!

That only works if SPAAG is using radar itself, which is not necessarily the case.

Not exactly a spotter...
With some newest missiles, just need to know the general area they are in.
Then launch a fire and forget missile like Brimstone, Hellfire Longbow or some Spike models, programmed to go to said area, turn on its seeker (IR or active radar usually), which looks for targets resembling what is known to be there, and attacks what it finds.

Btw many anti-ship missiles work that way since a long time, anyone who played Harpoon or its newer incarnations knows this.

That sounds like camouflage netting would easily defeat it...

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Please note that low-caliber autocannon AAGs have been able to defend against a multitude of air threats since the 1990s. Let me repeat that: the defense capability of low-caliber AAGs to the point they can defeat multiple threats is literally three decades old (give or take a year or two).

True, but doing so effectively requires the sensors and fire control of an SPAAG -- the lack of its own sensor package was one of the biggest limitations of the "Linebacker" AA variant Bradley, and one of the reasons it ended up being cut. More broadly, this is why the idea of a 20mm light autocannon on the MBT-70, early concept drafts for the M1 Abrams, and the proposed modernization of the Strv 103 "S-Tank" was ultimately dropped as ineffective.

 

[Zachowon]

That only works if SPAAG is using radar itself, which is not necessarily the case.

That sounds like camouflage netting would easily defeat it...

All SPAAG worth thier salt has a RADAR.
And to be effective in modern combat one needs to be. Because locking onto a fast moving low flying jet for instance is not easy, and he'll, if you have a radar you can at least have a way to get a pock even if you know it is there.
Because it allows for quicker reaction time.
SPAAG are useful if you have a very strong IADS presence behind it

 

[Marduk]

That only works if SPAAG is using radar itself, which is not necessarily the case.

That sounds like camouflage netting would easily defeat it...

Depends on the netting and the seeker, and only when stationary and prepared.
And then there's the fancy new thing, sensor fusion assisted seekers.

All SPAAG worth thier salt has a RADAR.
And to be effective in modern combat one needs to be. Because locking onto a fast moving low flying jet for instance is not easy, and he'll, if you have a radar you can at least have a way to get a pock even if you know it is there.
Because it allows for quicker reaction time.
SPAAG are useful if you have a very strong IADS presence behind it

True, but doing so effectively requires the sensors and fire control of an SPAAG -- the lack of its own sensor package was one of the biggest limitations of the "Linebacker" AA variant Bradley, and one of the reasons it ended up being cut. More broadly, this is why the idea of a 20mm light autocannon on the MBT-70, early concept drafts for the M1 Abrams, and the proposed modernization of the Strv 103 "S-Tank" was ultimately dropped as ineffective.

The new trend, successfully tested in Ukraine, is to use high end thermals for SPAAG fire control and spotting, and it apparently works well enough against drones. Obviously that option offers much more than it did in the 80's, and there's more computing power to go around now too.

Czech-made MR-2 Viktor anti-aircraft vehicles deployed to Ukraine comb

According to a video published on the "Clash Report" Twitter account on May 3, 2023, the MR-2 Viktor mobile anti-aircraft light vehicles manufactured by th

armyrecognition.com

Soon it might be that every good 7.62mm or 12.7mm RWS will be getting fitted with basic AA capabilities, as they already need to have decent day and night sensors.

POL - ZSU-23-4MP Biala : Other

www.armedconflicts.com

Poland also went in a similar direction with its ZSU-23-4 modification, removing the radar to replace it with passive targeting due to the obvious benefits that come with it.

In 2000, Poland began modernization work on the ZSU-23-4M, which was completed in 2005, and the modernized vehicle, designated ZSU-23-4MP Biala, was introduced into service as a cheaper alternative to the PZA/PZR Loara self-propelled gunships. As part of the modernization, the kit was equipped with a new optoelectronic fire control system that replaced the radar, and a missile armament consisting of a quad of PLR Grom missiles installed in the rear of the turret was integrated. The upgrade significantly increased the vehicle's combat and tactical capabilities, in particular doubling the range extension against aerial targets (Grom missiles). The switch from radar-based target detection and tracking to optoelectronic also eliminated one of the debunking symptoms of the vehicle's use on the battlefield. An optoelectronic system with thermal imaging can detect a target at a range of 8-10 km day and night and provide target tracking from a range of 7-8 km. The kit allows receiving target information from ASV Lowcza-3 (and compatible). Communication within the ASV systems is bi-directional, meaning that air targets detected by the suite can be shared via the parent ASV with other assets involved in the command and awareness network.


The modernization reduced the number of personnel from 4 to 3 and affected other subsystems outside the fire control system itself, such as the driver's station, which is equipped exclusively with passive night vision aids, which eliminated another unmasking symptom (active infrared illumination of the terrain when driving with night vision aids), or the means of communication with the digital communication system.
New ammunition is also available for the gun, including subcaliber ammunition that increases the ability to destroy ground targets.

 

[Zachowon]

Depends on the netting and the seeker, and only when stationary and prepared.
And then there's the fancy new thing, sensor fusion assisted seekers.


The new trend, successfully tested in Ukraine, is to use high end thermals for SPAAG fire control and spotting, and it apparently works well enough against drones. Obviously that option offers much more than it did in the 80's, and there's more computing power to go around now too.

Czech-made MR-2 Viktor anti-aircraft vehicles deployed to Ukraine comb

According to a video published on the "Clash Report" Twitter account on May 3, 2023, the MR-2 Viktor mobile anti-aircraft light vehicles manufactured by th

armyrecognition.com

Soon it might be that every good 7.62mm or 12.7mm RWS will be getting fitted with basic AA capabilities, as they already need to have decent day and night sensors.

ZSU-23-4 Shilka - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Poland also went in a similar direction with its ZSU-23-4 modification, removing the radar to replace it with passive targeting due to the obvious benefits that come with it.

Against drones yes.
That I fully agree with, but Radar is effective for bigger drones to help . So make it both of them

 

[Marduk]

Against drones yes.
That I fully agree with, but Radar is effective for bigger drones to help . So make it both of them

Bigger drones would be detectable from even longer range by thermals than small ones. With the more recent thermals they can already spot targets well beyond the effective range of the guns. If you aren't going to use the radar much due to the EW spotting and threats that come with it, you may well skip it, saving some room in the vehicle and a high cost component.
Also, speaking of Russian armored vehicles, this is a new interesting statistic:

 

[paulobrito]

The radar emits energy and can be detected/tracked - soon receives a visit from Mister HARM.
Passive sensors are passive (duh), and not detected.
With high-end passive IR sensors, enough computer power (and good camouflage), the drones operators never know what kills them.
Unless they are very lucky and see the shells - and that only if the defender uses tracers. If not, good luck.

 

[Zachowon]

Bigger drones would be detectable from even longer range by thermals than small ones. With the more recent thermals they can already spot targets well beyond the effective range of the guns. If you aren't going to use the radar much due to the EW spotting and threats that come with it, you may well skip it, saving some room in the vehicle and a high cost component.
Also, speaking of Russian armored vehicles, this is a new interesting statistic:

The higher the drone flies the harder it is to hit without radar.
Radar helps guide it even if it is just a fire control radar so you can get guns to fire ahead of it.

 

[Zachowon]

The radar emits energy and can be detected/tracked - soon receives a visit from Mister HARM.
Passive sensors are passive (duh), and not detected.
With high-end passive IR sensors, enough computer power (and good camouflage), the drones operators never know what kills them.
Unless they are very lucky and see the shells - and that only if the defender uses tracers. If not, good luck.

Depends on height of the drone.
Because again, depending on the county your fighting passive is still visable

 

[Marduk]

The higher the drone flies the harder it is to hit without radar.
Radar helps guide it even if it is just a fire control radar so you can get guns to fire ahead of it.

If the drone flies higher than 3-4 or so km the guns can't reach it anyway. Might make more sense to add radars to 57mm and similar guns with longer reach.

Also could use laser rangefinder in combination with thermals to get better ballistic targeting data for fire control.

The radar emits energy and can be detected/tracked - soon receives a visit from Mister HARM.
Passive sensors are passive (duh), and not detected.
With high-end passive IR sensors, enough computer power (and good camouflage), the drones operators never know what kills them.
Unless they are very lucky and see the shells - and that only if the defender uses tracers. If not, good luck.

Well, a SPAAG with passives can still be detected in all the other ways, like an ordinary tank or APC could be.

 

[Zachowon]

If the drone flies higher than 3-4 or so km the guns can't reach it anyway. Might make more sense to add radars to 57mm and similar guns with longer reach.

Also could use laser rangefinder in combination with thermals to get better ballistic targeting data for fire control.

Well, a SPAAG with passives can still be detected in all the other ways, like an ordinary tank or APC could be.

I mean, the S-60 57mm can have a radar and can hit out to 6k with radar

 

[Marduk]

I mean, the S-60 57mm can have a radar and can hit out to 6k with radar

Apparently the Polish Shilka variant designed 2 decades ago can provide target tracking up to 7-8km, so i guess with good enough hardware radar tracking is not necessary at below 76mm caliber anymore.

 

[Zachowon]

Apparently the Polish Shilka variant designed 2 decades ago can provide target tracking up to 7-8km, so i guess with good enough hardware radar tracking is not necessary at below 76mm caliber anymore.

Nope, this is what I am trying to say.
The thing is, they have radars.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Apparently the Polish Shilka variant designed 2 decades ago can provide target tracking up to 7-8km, so i guess with good enough hardware radar tracking is not necessary at below 76mm caliber anymore.

You're greatly overstating the case here -- keep in mind that the modernized Shilka is meant to be a low-cost supplement to the PZA Loara, which has *both* radar and passive FLIR tracking. Passive sensors are less capable, but more survivable in a high-ECM and/or SEAD environment, and a non-modernized Shilka would be dead meat against modern SEAD, hence the adoption of passive-only in this edge case.

The idea that "radar is no longer needed" is not really validated until you have first rate nations without tightly limited budgets building passive-only SPAAGs by choice and not necessity.

 

[Zachowon]

Radar is still needed though

Because you will lose a war wothout long range SAMs

 

[Marduk]

You're greatly overstating the case here -- keep in mind that the modernized Shilka is meant to be a low-cost supplement to the PZA Loara, which has *both* radar and passive FLIR tracking. Passive sensors are less capable, but more survivable in a high-ECM and/or SEAD environment, and a non-modernized Shilka would be dead meat against modern SEAD, hence the adoption of passive-only in this edge case.

The idea that "radar is no longer needed" is not really validated until you have first rate nations without tightly limited budgets building passive-only SPAAGs by choice and not necessity.

There is no final, production Loara nor order for one yet.
Radar still can make sense as additional sensors connected to wider air defense system, but those can also be handled separately, and for targeting for the vehicle's own guns, not sure of much benefit in having it.

As for first rate nations going passive only, British Stormer HVM. Not many countries do it, but the other question is, how many systems have the radar just to have it to help in case of less challenging situations, and would keep them off in a more SEAD threatened environment anyway.

Nope, this is what I am trying to say.
The thing is, they have radars.

The Russian ones sure do, but we know their situation with access to good thermals is not great, and the ship mounted Bofors ones are going to piggyback on the ship's radars anyway.

Radar is still needed though

Because you will lose a war wothout long range SAMs

Those would generally have their own, far bigger and harder to reach radars further away from the frontline.

 

[Zachowon]

There is no final, production Loara nor order for one yet.
Radar still can make sense as additional sensors connected to wider air defense system, but those can also be handled separately, and for targeting for the vehicle's own guns, not sure of much benefit in having it.

As for first rate nations going passive only, British Stormer HVM. Not many countries do it, but the other question is, how many systems have the radar just to have it to help in case of less challenging situations, and would keep them off in a more SEAD threatened environment anyway.

The Russian ones sure do, but we know their situation with access to good thermals is not great, and the ship mounted Bofors ones are going to piggyback on the ship's radars anyway.

Those would generally have their own, far bigger and harder to reach radars further away from the frontline.

IADS is a big thing though, and none are outside the reach of ground munitions.

Any SAM is gonna have Radar while SPAAGs are able to have such things as thermals and the like.


Tldr, For drones thermals are fine, and Radar really isn't needed unless high flying ones.

 

[paulobrito]

High-fly ones are out of the range of SPAAGs anyway and in the range of normal SAM systems. And they have a cost that justifies firing Mister SAM at them.

 

[Aldarion]

All SPAAG worth thier salt has a RADAR.
And to be effective in modern combat one needs to be. Because locking onto a fast moving low flying jet for instance is not easy, and he'll, if you have a radar you can at least have a way to get a pock even if you know it is there.
Because it allows for quicker reaction time.
SPAAG are useful if you have a very strong IADS presence behind it

Aren't there some with IR tracking or I'm just gettting confused?