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The Political Problem of Pornography

FriedCFour

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I think you might be projecting a bit there. ;)
Uh, no, not really. I mean yes, my drive to procreate is pretty high, but also if you took middle school biology you’d learn about survival of the fittest and how species are driven heavily by two things: procreation and survival, and that all living things are driven by these two things primarily. Very obviously porn impacts your drive to procreate.
 
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FriedCFour

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I mean, this whole argument - from both sides - is based on the rather silly idea that people can only subscribe to one identity at a time. You can be a Prussian and a German and a Christian simultaneously. Now what happened in the 1800s was that the concept of "German-ness" became a more powerful identity than "Prussian" or "Bavarian" or "subject of duke XYZ", but those other identities by and large didn't cease to exist.
Never argued anything to the contrary so no, only one side is silly.
 

Captain X

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because parents aren’t doing their jobs
And this is the source of any real problems right here. But I will never agree to censorship of anything intended for adults because of parents being negligent in their duty. I will thus be unresponsive to any argument that porn is any way to blame for "teaching" children anything, because children should not be watching it to begin with.

I can’t imagine that sort of thing isn’t having a negative effect on the people viewing it for sexual gratification. I’m not sure how exactly a person comes to be into that sort of thing, perhaps the sort of escalation I mentioned earlier, but it does seem troubling.
Because some of us have a pretty good handle on separating fantasy from reality, I guess, just like any other form of media. For all the autistic screeching from feminists, you want to know one of the most common female sexual fantasies? Rape. Does this mean all those women want to actually be raped? Of course not.

...could watching pornography make people more interested in having anal sex, engaging in bondage, bisexuality, or preferring a certain shaving style? I’m almost certain that is the case.
The horror... :rolleyes:
 

ShieldWife

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And this is the source of any real problems right here. But I will never agree to censorship of anything intended for adults because of parents being negligent in their duty. I will thus be unresponsive to any argument that porn is any way to blame for "teaching" children anything, because children should not be watching it to begin with.
I‘m not saying that there should be censorship, but there is some middle ground between saying that porn is fine and good and having draconian laws banning it. Of course bad parenting is a worse problem than the prevalence of pornography, but it influences lots of other issues as well, but we can still discuss the possibility that pornography has a bad influence on society.

Because some of us have a pretty good handle on separating fantasy from reality, I guess, just like any other form of media. For all the autistic screeching from feminists, you want to know one of the most common female sexual fantasies? Rape. Does this mean all those women want to actually be raped? Of course not.
Yes, rape is a common female fantasy and you’re right, that doesn’t mean that women want to get raped, but that doesn’t mean that the fantasy is completely disconnected from the reality of female desires. Perhaps the desire for a dominant partner, the desire to submit of a man, maybe the thrill of a dangerous sort of guy.

I’m just not so sure if we can say that the media we consume has no effects on our desires or our values. In fact, that seems like a pretty extreme claim to me.

Of course, people can separate fantasy from reality, but don’t you find it even a little bit troubling for people to become aroused by the sort of comic which I described? That would seem to at least be an indicator of some sort of problem if not the cause of one.

The horror... :rolleyes:
It seems like you’re deliberately distorting what I said in my post:

but could watching pornography make people more interested in having anal sex, engaging in bondage, bisexuality, or preferring a certain shaving style? I’m almost certain that is the case. Those may not seem so important, it probably isn’t, but what could be a subtle yet powerful effect of rampant viewing of pornography could be a cheapening of sexuality or the creation of unusual expectations or the normalization of promiscuity.
I said that those particular effects (anal, bondage, and shaving) probably weren’t important, but that other influences could be more harmful - such as normalization of promiscuity. As I said earlier, I’m not expressing disapproval of kinky sex.

Are you now saying that maybe pornography could influence a person’s sexual desires? That a young man who watches porn with big breasted girls with shaved pubic hair have anal sex might develop a preference for big breasts, shaved pubs, or anal sex? If watching pornography can influence such relatively trivial tastes, could it not also influence people in more harmful ways?

I don’t think that we can so quickly dismiss the potential side effects that pornography might have on society.
 

Captain X

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I‘m not saying that there should be censorship, but there is some middle ground between saying that porn is fine and good and having draconian laws banning it. Of course bad parenting is a worse problem than the prevalence of pornography, but it influences lots of other issues as well, but we can still discuss the possibility that pornography has a bad influence on society.
That's kind of hard to do when I don't think it has a bad influence on society. The heart of the issue you're bringing up boils down to seemingly wanting the government to do parents' jobs for them, and I, for one, do not like the idea of the government raising kids - this is what has led us to Marxism being so popular among young people currently.

I’m just not so sure if we can say that the media we consume has no effects on our desires or our values. In fact, that seems like a pretty extreme claim to me.
What's at issue here is that people should be expected to be able to separate fantasy from reality. Otherwise, you're making the same argument as all the people who are trying to blame video games, or violent TV shows or movies, or music for all the ills of society, or corrupting the youth or whatever. I do not subscribe to the Tipper Gore viewpoint on things.

Of course, people can separate fantasy from reality, but don’t you find it even a little bit troubling for people to become aroused by the sort of comic which I described? That would seem to at least be an indicator of some sort of problem if not the cause of one.
Not really. It's not my thing, so I don't watch it. If only everyone would take that approach to things...

It seems like you’re deliberately distorting what I said in my post:
No, I'm just making fun of you, because the part I quoted in particular does not in any way seem negative to me.

I said that those particular effects (anal, bondage, and shaving) probably weren’t important, but that other influences could be more harmful - such as normalization of promiscuity.
Which also doesn't seem like much of a negative to me.

Are you now saying that maybe pornography could influence a person’s sexual desires? That a young man who watches porn with big breasted girls with shaved pubic hair have anal sex might develop a preference for big breasts, shaved pubs, or anal sex? If watching pornography can influence such relatively trivial tastes, could it not also influence people in more harmful ways?
You just keep edging into Jack Thompson territory with this argument. Anything can possibly have some kind of an effect on someones preferences for something. So what? You going to clutch your pearls because someone's into something you think is weird or disgusting? Just don't fucking look at it. Is someone giving you the Clockwork Orange treatment?

I don’t think that we can so quickly dismiss the potential side effects that pornography might have on society.
I do. The only issues I see with it come down to the same kind of issues that are associated with any kind of addiction, for anything - spending all time on it to the exclusion of all else, and spending way too much money on it. And like someone else said, that's where friends and family come in.
 

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That's kind of hard to do when I don't think it has a bad influence on society. The heart of the issue you're bringing up boils down to seemingly wanting the government to do parents' jobs for them, and I, for one, do not like the idea of the government raising kids - this is what has led us to Marxism being so popular among young people currently.


What's at issue here is that people should be expected to be able to separate fantasy from reality. Otherwise, you're making the same argument as all the people who are trying to blame video games, or violent TV shows or movies, or music for all the ills of society, or corrupting the youth or whatever. I do not subscribe to the Tipper Gore viewpoint on things.


Not really. It's not my thing, so I don't watch it. If only everyone would take that approach to things...


No, I'm just making fun of you, because the part I quoted in particular does not in any way seem negative to me.


Which also doesn't seem like much of a negative to me.


You just keep edging into Jack Thompson territory with this argument. Anything can possibly have some kind of an effect on someones preferences for something. So what? You going to clutch your pearls because someone's into something you think is weird or disgusting? Just don't fucking look at it. Is someone giving you the Clockwork Orange treatment?


I do. The only issues I see with it come down to the same kind of issues that are associated with any kind of addiction, for anything - spending all time on it to the exclusion of all else, and spending way too much money on it. And like someone else said, that's where friends and family come in.
This entire thread is one long Tipper Gore/Jake Thompson role play by the people who want to go after porn.

There is no 'Political Problem' when it comes to porn, outside the heads of a few Regressive Right radicals.
 

DarthOne

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This entire thread is one long Tipper Gore/Jake Thompson role play by the people who want to go after porn.

There is no 'Political Problem' when it comes to porn, outside the heads of a few Regressive Right radicals.
I’d love to see any evidence pointing to this conclusion.
 

ShieldWife

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That's kind of hard to do when I don't think it has a bad influence on society. The heart of the issue you're bringing up boils down to seemingly wanting the government to do parents' jobs for them, and I, for one, do not like the idea of the government raising kids - this is what has led us to Marxism being so popular among young people currently.
Once again, you’re distorting my argument. I’m not saying that pornography should be outlawed. I think that it should be legal. But thinking that something should be legal is different from thinking that it has no potentially negative effects.

What's at issue here is that people should be expected to be able to separate fantasy from reality. Otherwise, you're making the same argument as all the people who are trying to blame video games, or violent TV shows or movies, or music for all the ills of society, or corrupting the youth or whatever. I do not subscribe to the Tipper Gore viewpoint on things.
Of course people should and can differentiate fantasy from reality. Does that mean that media we consume has no effect on us? Not at all, the media we consume does effect us. To move away from porn for a moment, think of all of the left wing messages in movies and TV, do you think that doesn’t influence people?

Not really. It's not my thing, so I don't watch it. If only everyone would take that approach to things...
Once again, I’m not saying that it should be illegal, but lots of things that are legal (or should be) can still cause problems.

No, I'm just making fun of you, because the part I quoted in particular does not in any way seem negative to me.
I feel like you’re not even paying attention to what I’m writing. I didn’t say that stuff was objectionable. I said that pornography could influence people’s sexual proclivities and I gave examples of unimportant stuff. You essentially agreed that it could influence people. If you agree that it can influence people in those ways, could it not influence people in more important ways too?

Which also doesn't seem like much of a negative to me.
Normalization of promiscuity isn’t negative? Promiscuity is one of the major weapons in the left’s arsenal for undermining families and ultimately centralizing power into their hands.

You just keep edging into Jack Thompson territory with this argument. Anything can possibly have some kind of an effect on someones preferences for something. So what? You going to clutch your pearls because someone's into something you think is weird or disgusting? Just don't fucking look at it. Is someone giving you the Clockwork Orange treatment?
I’m not clutching pearls over weird stuff, I am concerned that mass consumption of pornography might have negative effects on society.
 

Captain X

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Once again, you’re distorting my argument. I’m not saying that pornography should be outlawed. I think that it should be legal. But thinking that something should be legal is different from thinking that it has no potentially negative effects.
So you don't think something you think is bad should be banned. So what is your endgame exactly?

Of course people should and can differentiate fantasy from reality. Does that mean that media we consume has no effect on us? Not at all, the media we consume does effect us. To move away from porn for a moment, think of all of the left wing messages in movies and TV, do you think that doesn’t influence people?
Only smoothbrains. Are you getting influenced by them? Because I'm not. This is again an instance where I just elect to not watch stuff that gets too lefty. You seem to be operating under the assumption that people are just these blank slates and can be easily swayed into doing whatever someone wants them to by just watching it in a TV show or movie or something.

Once again, I’m not saying that it should be illegal, but lots of things that are legal (or should be) can still cause problems.
So what are you proposing? Because it sure seems to me like you're proposing these things that are causing problems to be gotten rid of, ergo banned.

I feel like you’re not even paying attention to what I’m writing. I didn’t say that stuff was objectionable. I said that pornography could influence people’s sexual proclivities and I gave examples of unimportant stuff. You essentially agreed that it could influence people. If you agree that it can influence people in those ways, could it not influence people in more important ways too?
I'm starting to feel like I'm arguing with a leftist who's trying to get be to agree to something by increments, or something along the lines of "you agree to this, therefore you should agree to my entire argument."

Normalization of promiscuity isn’t negative? Promiscuity is one of the major weapons in the left’s arsenal for undermining families and ultimately centralizing power into their hands.
Promiscuity isn't doing that. The way the left has undermined families is by undermining the ability of parents to discipline their children by labeling it as abuse, then exploiting the annoyance that can be caused by children misbehaving in public and playing up the frankly entirely true aspects which make having children undesirable, while ignoring or underplaying the more positive aspects. They've also attacked masculinity as a concept. Other random people sleeping around isn't undermining families. "Oh, but if people want to get laid, they can get married and start a family," you might say. That's a formula for an unhappy marriage that will probably end in divorce. Also, marriage isn't going to be for everyone, and it would be wrong to try to pigeon-hole everyone into it.

I’m not clutching pearls over weird stuff, I am concerned that mass consumption of pornography might have negative effects on society.
Kind of looks like pearl-clutching to me. Especially the part I highlighted to make fun of. Does it really bother you that some people shave their pubes?
 

ShieldWife

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I’m to point of just assuming you’re arguing in bad faith since you keep putting words in my mouth and pretending that I’ve said the very opposite of what I actually did say.
 

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...I was asking for proof that rampart amounts of easily accessible pornography are a good thing.
That was very much not what you seemed to be asking for in your post.

Though to answer that, now that you've clarified, I will simply point out you have to be operating from the premise of 'porn is bad' if you are demanding 'proof' that it isn't bad.
 

FriedCFour

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There is no 'Political Problem' when it comes to porn, outside the heads of a few Regressive Right radicals.
If you aren’t regressive I question how you can even consider yourself on the right. If you can take a look at society and say, “what we need is progressivism in what we have going now” you aren’t on the right in any way shape or form. The entire right is regressive, it doesn’t work to try and say that as some kind of pejorative.
 

ShieldWife

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“Regressive left” was a rather unfortunate insult that conservatives came up with to describe particularly authoritarian leftists. I would rather they be called extreme leftists, authoritarian leftists, or even the “control left” as a clever play off of the “alt right.”

Calling them the “regressive left” is unfortunate because it’s kind of like insulting the left by calling them conservatives. It’s like “Hey leftists, we’re the real progressives.” And “The left are the real racists.”
 

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If you aren’t regressive I question how you can even consider yourself on the right. If you can take a look at society and say, “what we need is progressivism in what we have going now” you aren’t on the right in any way shape or form. The entire right is regressive, it doesn’t work to try and say that as some kind of pejorative.
There is more than 'progressive' or 'regressive' in the political spectrum, and most people (unlike you) are not interested in wasting time on battles that cannot be won, or have already been fought and lost.

I am a Registered Independent for a reason, and it's because I am only allied with the Right at this moment because the Left has lost its marbles.

If there was a viable third party, that didn't have the ideological baggage of the Dems or GOP, I'd be with them in a heart beat. Because I'd prefer not to be stuck on a Right that is trying to be as regressive as the Left in more and more cases.
 

Morphic Tide

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Calling them the “regressive left” is unfortunate because it’s kind of like insulting the left by calling them conservatives.
Regressive = wants to return to a previous status quo
Conservative = wants to preserve the current status quo
Progressive = wants to create a new status quo

The "Regressive Left" appellation has to do with the dominant morality being somewhere between Conservative and Progressive, so the issues the majority of people have are to do with modern intersectionalism returning to demographic castes and returning to obscenity/blasphemy laws, but with different targeting. The objections are extremely rarely about hedonism, they're mostly about re-packaging old things.
 

FriedCFour

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There is more than 'progressive' or 'regressive' in the political spectrum, and most people (unlike you) are not interested in wasting time on battles that cannot be won, or have already been fought and lost.

I am a Registered Independent for a reason, and it's because I am only allied with the Right at this moment because the Left has lost its marbles.

If there was a viable third party, that didn't have the ideological baggage of the Dems or GOP, I'd be with them in a heart beat. Because I'd prefer not to be stuck on a Right that is trying to be as regressive as the Left in more and more cases.
I wish the left was remotely regressive lol. Also the idea of “fought and lost” is hilarious. That’s literally just saying “wrong side of history” and imagines things as never possible to overturn.
 
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