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The Political Problem of Pornography

Doomsought

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Huh. I wonder if it would even be legal for them to use the same algorithms? Because the algorithms machine learning uses operate on a shitton of data, so you'd need every company trying to write an algorithm to have gigs and gigs of child porn to run tests against to train.
Twitter litterally refused to to take down CP when told about it. Not just any CP, but also CP that was being used as blackmail. They are actively complicit.
 

Abhorsen

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Twitter litterally refused to to take down CP when told about it. Not just any CP, but also CP that was being used as blackmail. They are actively complicit.
If so, that violates even section 230, as they aren't keeping to the safe harbor rules. They'd then get sued into oblivion.
 

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If so, that violates even section 230, as they aren't keeping to the safe harbor rules. They'd then get sued into oblivion.
We use the jury system because literally a random person picked up off the street is more trustworthy than an appointed judge. We have had several reminders of this just a few months ago.
 

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We use the jury system because literally a random person picked up off the street is more trustworthy than an appointed judge. We have had several reminders of this just a few months ago.
First, what in hell does a jury system have to do with anything here?

Second, that is not why we use the jury system. We use the jury system for a variety of reasons, but not because we think that judges in general are not trustworthy, but to adjust for bias, stop people from being in the business of acquitting or convicting, force decision making by consensus, separate judgements of law from judgements of fact, etc.
 

FriedCFour

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Don't impose morality on others?
All law is imposing morality on others. All powers and governments have imposed morality on the populace. If there is government than morality is being imposed.


And that you think this makes me even more confident that the right won't ever come up with a solution.
Well it’s the truth. We already have come up with solutions. See- Banned.video, Americafirst.live, Gab, utilizing the Fediverse. We’ve also had things like Hatreon showing where they can just cut you off from banks, and so use payment alts as well. For policies see the push to get the America First Amendments added to the Florida tech censorship bill.
If you also want them to take similarly large holes in the 2nd amendment and the rest of the first amendment, sure.
they already do. That’s the point. There is no “we can’t alter the constitution” line in the sand. They’ve been doing that since the 70s, finding things that were never present and just saying that they are to achieve political ends. There’s no reason anymore to say “we can’t do that, it’s unconstitutional!” There is no “if we do this then they will too!” It doesn’t work like that, it never has, they already do do it and holding to that line is just a suicide pact in an attempt to be a beautiful loser.
 
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FriedCFour

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No, they very much do still have a staggering amount of institutional experience in such dodging because the financial system still doesn't like them,
The financial system hates us substantially more whereas the same payment processors that have banned us have dropped millions upon millions into porn. See PayPal and only fans. In terms of the modern dodging of financial institutions we’ve found out far more and been subjected to vastly more pressure than pretty much any porn company. Unless you can show me porn companies being completely debanked, unable to utilize any online payment processors at all, put on the MasterCard/Visa blacklist and getting around even that, it’s not the same.
 

FriedCFour

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Leftists try to take it by calling others racist, we take it back by appealing to American values. And censorship has never been one.
‘Censorship has never been an American value!’
‘Sees that most state legislatures had obscenity laws passed from the very beginning of the US’
You sure about that one bud?
 

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Oh FFS, why are we having this fight, AGAIN?!

No one is going to change any minds, the debate will just go round in circles, and people will again be reminded why the Right isn't actually trustworthy when it comes to picking fights it can actually win or just break even on.

If you are going to throw out the Constitution to get at porn, be prepared for when the whole damn thing is rendered moot, or more moot than it is now.
 
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Abhorsen

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All law is imposing morality on others.
Not really. Law shouldn't be about someone's morality. It should be about preserving rights against those who would abuse people.
they already do. That’s the point. There is no “we can’t alter the constitution” line in the sand. They’ve been doing that since the 70s, finding things that were never present and just saying that they are to achieve political ends. There’s no reason anymore to say “we can’t do that, it’s unconstitutional!” There is no “if we do this then they will too!” It doesn’t work like that, it never has, they already do do it and holding to that line is just a suicide pact in an attempt to be a beautiful loser.
That you think this yet again proves how little you actually know about the constitution. The constitution is literally the only thing stopping us from going the same way Canada or Europe is going, banning speech they don't like. That this hasn't happened is only because of the constitution, and that you want to throw away your last protection would be pitiable, if it weren't so laughably stupid.

Well it’s the truth. We already have come up with solutions. See- Banned.video, Americafirst.live, Gab, utilizing the Fediverse. We’ve also had things like Hatreon showing where they can just cut you off from banks, and so use payment alts as well. For policies see the push to get the America First Amendments added to the Florida tech censorship bill.
... To porn. None of this solved your porn issue. See, every solution you have used here was based off of porn and black markets that used them first to avoid censorship. You're playing catchup. And anything new that the right has made will be repurposed to fight your pornography censorship, just as the right used what others made to fight the left's censorship. In fact, alt-tech is making porn even more resilient to attempt to censor it.

‘Censorship has never been an American value!’
‘Sees that most state legislatures had obscenity laws passed from the very beginning of the US’
You sure about that one bud?
Laws being passed do not an American value make.
 
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FriedCFour

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If you are going to throw out the Constitution to get at porn, be prepared for when the who damn thing is rendered moot, or more moot than it is now.
It already is moot, that’s the point. And it’s worth pushing back when it’s claimed that supporting pornography being freely distributed is the American position and being against it is Anti-American.


Not really. Law shouldn't be about morality. It should be about preserving
Yes really. A component of law should be the preservation of society and the upholding of order. Morality helps to do that. Even libertarian law imposes libertarian morality on the people, many of whom will not want that and do not want that.


That you think this yet again proves how little you actually know about the constitution. The constitution is literally the only thing stopping us from going the same way Canada or Europe is going, banning speech they don't like. That this hasn't happened is only because of the constitution, and that you want to throw away your last protection would be pitiable, if it weren't so laughably stupid.
I’m fully aware that the anti-democratic institutions we have do help with that, but I do not see how utilizing those institutions to have right wing activist judges rather than “constitutionalist” judges is helpful. Utilizing right wing activist judges within the framework that we have would be better able to institutionalize our positions within the framework and achieve ends that we want, much the same with how abortion has worked in being shoehorned into it when it has zero place or justification whatsoever.


To porn. None of this solved your porn issue. See, every solution you have used here was based off of porn and black markets that used them first to avoid censorship. You're playing catchup. And anything new that the right has made will be repurposed to fight your pornography censorship, just as the right used what others made to fight the left's censorship. In fact, alt-tech is making porn even more resilient to attempt to censor it.
Yeah and I’m fully aware. Also, we aren’t really playing catch-up unless you can show me them having to do any of what those sites I’ve listed have done. We deal with new issues for a new era, they don’t deal with those problems. I support censorship of it because it still makes it harder to find and it makes it much harder to make a living off of porn, and thus lowers the ability for it to be consumed and distributed and seen by more people just as it’s done to us. The less widely available porn is, which as of right now is pretty much easily accessible to a six year old to the point they will probably arrive on it by accident and begin regular consumption by the age of 11, the better.


Laws being passed do not an American value make.
What defines American values? What are American values? The values held by the American people at the beginning of our nation aren’t American values?
 

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I’m fully aware that the anti-democratic institutions we have do help with that, but I do not see how utilizing those institutions to have right wing activist judges rather than “constitutionalist” judges is helpful. Utilizing right wing activist judges within the framework that we have would be better able to institutionalize our positions within the framework and achieve ends that we want, much the same with how abortion has worked in being shoehorned into it when it has zero place or justification whatsoever.
Because a) there aren't many right wing activist judges, and b) the republican party tried that for years, and ended up with a Souter for every Alito, because they weren't able to choose ones that stayed conservative. The only reliable choice were originalists and textualists, who still almost always give the right wing response anyways.

Roe v Wade happened before there was a movement for constitutionalism, and is a big reason why there might in the future be some legal progress against it.

What makes American values? The values held by the American people at the beginning of our nation aren’t American values?
What they wrote into a nifty little document called the constitution? Maybe that. The whole original idea of the constitution was that it didn't apply to the states, so of course states would enact obscenity laws. Those would then be, at best, state values, not national ones.

On top of that, having a law doesn't make it a value either. There are a ton of laws that don't define us as a nation, like speeding laws, or weird tax loopholes.

What was put into the constitution and numerous state constitutions? The right to speak freely. What wasn't? That obscenity doesn't count.
 

FriedCFour

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Because a) there aren't many right wing activist judges, and b) the republican party tried that for years, and ended up with a Souter for every Alito, because they weren't able to choose ones that stayed conservative. The only reliable choice were originalists and textualists, who still almost always give the right wing response anyways.
Every Trump pick has failed miserably. And just find the ones who will vote the way you want just like the left does.

Roe v Wade happened before there was a movement for constitutionalism, and is a big reason why there might in the future be some legal progress against it.
And it’s been 50 years since that bullshit was put in place and even with a majority conservative slate is still in place.
What they wrote into a nifty little document called the constitution? Maybe that. The whole original idea of the constitution was that it didn't apply to the states, so of course states would enact obscenity laws. Those would then be, at best, state values, not national ones.
The constitution doesn’t give you America’s values and doesn’t exist in it of itself. Source - the constitution.
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
The constitution is meant to help with facilitation of this. It isn’t a means in it of itself, it isn’t a pseudoreligious document, it’s meant to help curbing the utilization of the vote of the people and of government with violating what is listed above.

American values predate the constitution and begin with those who first set foot on this continent and began carving civilization out of the wilderness.

On top of that, having a law doesn't make it a value either. There are a ton of laws that don't define us as a nation, like speeding laws, or weird tax loopholes.
Did I say define us as a nation or did I say impose morality?

What was put into the constitution and numerous state constitutions? The right to speak freely. What wasn't? That obscenity doesn't count.
But even post 1865 there were plenty of obscenity laws, so clearly it was that obscenity doesn’t count seeing as it’s still present to this day. They’ve just utilized activist judges to try and close off more of what was the intent.
 
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Bacle

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American values predate the constitution and begin with those who first set foot on this content and began carving civilization out of the wilderness.
Hmm, so you think the ancestors of Aluet and Inuit are the ones who get to define what American values are.

Good to know you are so...well educated about America's past.
 

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Hmm, so you think the ancestors of Aluet and Inuit are the ones who get to define what American values are.

Good to know you are so...well educated about America's past.
no obviously not because it’s European settlers who created America lol. That wasn’t civilization unless just everything human is civilization. Natives didn’t have hardly anything as far as human development goes, and were stone age farmers and Hunter gatherers. That’s not civilization.
 

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Every Trump pick has failed miserably. And just find the ones who will vote the way you want just like the left does.
I don't think you get what I said. The right has repeatedly failed at being able to do that. You as a group are utterly incapable of consistently picking conservative judges. All you are able to do is pick textualists. You have no other option except flipping a coin.

Second, that you think they are failures is also wrong. The two textualists he appointed are the ones that were able to open churches finally and get rid of the south bay (or whatever it was called) bullshit. Kavanaugh, of course, isn't a textualist and is less reliable, but was chosen as a way to get Kennedy safely away before a Dem could replace him (because he clerked for Kennedy), and is an improvement over Kennedy.
The constitution doesn’t give you America’s values and doesn’t exist in it of itself. Source - the constitution.
No, the Bill of Rights listing core American values is a pretty fair reading. Your quote didn't even refute that.

The constitution is meant to help with facilitation of this. It isn’t a means in it of itself, it isn’t a pseudoreligious document, it’s meant to help curbing the utilization of the vote of the people and of government with violating what is listed above.

American values predate the constitution and begin with those who first set foot on this content and began carving civilization out of the wilderness.
This is also untrue, even with your sad attempt at fixing it. American values start when America was created, whether that's the Declaration or Constitution, idk.

Did I say define us as a nation or did I say impose morality?
We were talking about American values, which define us as a nation. Maybe read what I responded to?

But even post 1865 there were plenty of obscenity laws, so clearly it was that obscenity doesn’t count seeing as it’s still present to this day. They’ve just utilized activist judges to try and close off more of what was the intent.
Again, them existing doesn't speak to our values. An American value is (or at least was) prudishness about sex, I'll give you that. That is reflected in attempts to legislate it. But censorship was not, as attempts to legislate it were fought on the grounds that prudishness doesn't trump American's right to speech. And when in court, obscenity laws eventually started to lose as prudishness became less important than speech to judges, as they stopped being activists, and started hewing to the constitution, which doesn't mention being a prude.

All you have shown was that two American values came into conflict, not that censorship was an American value.
 

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no obviously not because it’s European settlers who created America lol. That wasn’t civilization unless just everything human is civilization. Natives didn’t have hardly anything as far as human development goes, and were stone age farmers and Hunter gatherers. That’s not civilization.
You said:
American values predate the constitution and begin with those who first set foot on this continent and began carving civilization out of the wilderness.
It wasn't European's who first set foot on this continent, nor were the native without 'civilization', either.

You have a very 'white/European America is only REAL America' mindset, and seem to think you understand what the Founders wanted for the nation better than the actual documents and papers they left us.

You also forget this thing called the Iroquois Confederacy, which existed as a cohesive state in the northeast before and during the time of the Founding Fathers, and forgot that a lot of our Constitution draws from how the Iroquois ran there own nation.
 

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It wasn't European's who first set foot on this continent, nor were the native without 'civilization', either.
Read the second sentence. That wasn’t civilization.

You have a very 'white/European America is only REAL America' mindset,
Well yes, because that’s who created America.

and seem to think you understand what the Founders wanted for the nation better than the actual documents and papers they left us.
No, actually, I gather these things by reading what the founders and the people of the America were like and what they wrote and what they believed, and then have arrived at what they wanted for the nation, as they wrote it. For example, here is what Washington wanted fAmerica.

I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation.
Whats hilarious is that when I say things even close to this, that Christianity is vital to America, I am called a theocrat and anti American and against the founders. It’s hilarious.


Second, that you think they are failures is also wrong. The two textualists he appointed are the ones that were able to open churches finally and get rid of the south bay (or whatever it was called) bullshit. Kavanaugh, of course, isn't a textualist and is less reliable, but was chosen as a way to get Kennedy safely away before a Dem could replace him (because he clerked for Kennedy), and is an improvement over Kennedy.
They failed miserably on the election, failed heavily on Covid, have failed to do anything on guns, have passed more LGBT shit, and have continued to pass the bucks on abortion.
No, the Bill of Rights listing core American values is a pretty fair reading. Your quote didn't even refute that.
No, because it doesn’t explicitly include Christianity which was obviously a core value to the people of America.


This is also untrue, even with your sad attempt at fixing it. American values start when America was created, whether that's the Declaration or Constitution, idk.
And I disagree and believe you can see the start of Americans with the American colonists. America as a nation isn’t defined by government and that isn’t what defines peoples. For example, there were the German people and they had values and beliefs and that well predates the actual state of Germany.


All you have shown was that two American values came into conflict, not that censorship was an American value.
Okay, sure. Censorship in it of itself is not. Anti-degeneracy was and we desperately need that back.
 

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Whats hilarious is that when I say things even close to this, that Christianity is vital to America, I am called a theocrat and anti American and against the founders. It’s hilarious.
There's a difference between saying "America's a Christian Nation" and America is based on Christian values and has a huge affect on America's values. One makes one a theocrat by definition (wanting to legislate by religion). The other is fact.
No, because it doesn’t explicitly include Christianity which was obviously a core value to the people of America.
I never said it was an exhaustive list, just that it listed values. I even gave an American value not listed in my previous response. You continue to fail to read what I wrote.

They failed miserably on the election, failed heavily on Covid, have failed to do anything on guns, have passed more LGBT shit, and have continued to pass the bucks on abortion.
In order: 1) Trump hired shit lawyers that blew any chance he had up. That's on him, not the judge, much less the Supreme Court, which saw almost none of this.
2) Roberts failed on covid, then Barrett fixed that. Roberts: Another attempt to find a conservative judge without going for a textualist. 3) They literally just took a gun case after passing because Roberts obviously can't be trusted, and losing a gun case is a worst case scenario. 4) Only Gorsuch went for any LGBT stuff, and that wasn't constitution stuff, but the way the specific law was written, and he made sure to keep religious exceptions viable. 5) They did push back on abortion, you just weren't paying attention. June Medical was basically a victory, as though abortionists won, the test used got pushed back to the Casey Test from the Whole Woman's Health test.

So no, none of your statements here are actually correct.
And I disagree and believe you can see the start of Americans with the American colonists. America as a nation isn’t defined by government and that isn’t what defines peoples. For example, there were the German people and they had values and beliefs and that well predates the actual state of Germany.
But none of those were German values. Those were prussian or bohemian or other HRE state values.

Similarly, before America cohered as a group of colonies, there were a bunch of values that didn't last to to become American values, such as witch burning and theocratic state building of Massachusetts.
 

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There's a difference between saying "America's a Christian Nation" and America is based on Christian values and has a huge affect on America's values. One makes one a theocrat by definition (wanting to legislate by religion). The other is fact.
Those two are pretty much the same. Certainly when I say America is a Christian nation I mean the latter. I’m sure that’s what Trump means when he says that as well.


But none of those were German values. Those were prussian or bohemian or other HRE state values.
I would completely disagree and think you are putting the cart before the horse on this one here.
Similarly, before America cohered as a group of colonies, there were a bunch of values that didn't last to to become American values, such as witch burning and theocratic state building of Massachusetts.
Sure but America is more different in that it’s the coalescence of different European peoples into one. E Pluribus Unum and all that. You first have a shared sense of identity, THEN you form a nation around that identity. The Founding Fathers didn’t create America’s values, they are the end result of the sovereignty and will of a people forming and structuring a nation. Those values have to exist first in order to be put into the constitution, and you can trace much of the bill of rights to various incidents and culture of the American people. For example, King Philips war certainly helped to build up and drill in the importance of militia, among the many other wars fought.
 

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Those two are pretty much the same. Certainly when I say America is a Christian nation I mean the latter. I’m sure that’s what Trump means when he says that as well.
Those are completely different to everyone who isn't in your world. Saying a country is a X-nation, where X is a religion or a ethnicity or nationality, means that it's for people who are X (and maybe not for people who aren't X), and that X has not just political influence, but laws to support that.

America is an American nation, and during slavery it could be argued it was once a white nation, but it was never a Christian nation, even when nearly universally Christian, because people who weren't Christian were just as American as the others, and there weren't laws enshrining Christianity as the state religion, or funding it, etc. In fact, the first amendment banned establishing a religion.

In contrast, Israel is a Jewish nation, because it says so in its founding documents, and many of its laws are based off of religion and to the benefit of people who are Jewish.

I would completely disagree and think you are putting the cart before the horse on this one here.
Germany was barely even a thing before Prussia went all nationalistic as an attempt to get people to unify. There was nearly no unity before that, and no one thought of themselves as German but instead as Bavarian, or Bohemian (if they cared where they lived at all). The German empire did a lot to change that by taking those influences and supporting nationalism to try to forge a national unity.

A similar thing happened with America.
Sure but America is more different in that it’s the coalescence of different European peoples into one. E Pluribus Unum and all that. You first have a shared sense of identity, THEN you form a nation around that identity. The Founding Fathers didn’t create America’s values, they are the end result of the sovereignty and will of a people forming and structuring a nation. Those values have to exist first in order to be put into the constitution, and you can trace much of the bill of rights to various incidents and culture of the American people. For example, King Philips war certainly helped to build up and drill in the importance of militia, among the many other wars fought.
Sure, the values existed before, but they weren't American values. American values at the beginning were a distillation of the values that were shared among many of the 13 colonies as a whole, such as religious tolerance (something anathema to Massachusetts values).
 
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