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Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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Obozny
In the months since the election, people have repeatedly shown you numerous video recordings, government records, and personal accounts (including that of the owner of this forum, LordSunhawk) that support the conclusion that it was. Combine that with the fact that the left has resisted every attempt to investigate what went down, and tried to silence anyone who points out the obvious; I'm sorry, but you don't get to pretend that you're a reasonable person when you ignore all that and continue to insist that there was no fraud.

I didn't say there was "no fraud", I said it hadn't been proven that the entire election was fraudulent. This that whole disingenuous debating thing I was talking about. "We presented a bunch of random 'evidence' and made no further move to actually advance our position, clearly we are right".

Also, the fact the dems oppose it proves nothing. Democrats have been opposing republican proposals purely on the basis of them being republican proposals for years now.

There is video of cops literally removing barricades and inviting them inside the building; I know it's been shown to you, so don't pretend that it doesn't exist.

I've seen one video of the cops moving one "barricade", located well outside of the capital building. A barricade that was waist high and totally insufficient to hold back a mob, so keeping in place was littlerally pointless.

There is a vast gulf between that, and your claim of the cops inviting them in to the capital itself, where the cops then suddenly changed their minds, barricaded everything, and then shoot a women.

You clearly do not understand mob mentality, or the concept of incitement.

That actually undermines your point. Yes, in theory a small number of liberal activist could prod a mob into taking action. But so could a small number of right wing activists. The "libs made them do it" theory implicitly assumes that had these liberal activists (who's actions during the riot are largely unknown, I must add) not acted, that no one else of any other political persuasion woyld have done anything to set things in motion either. That does not seem plausible.

Also, it's generally very hard to prod a mob into action unless it's been ruled up, which for a crowd like this would require something considerable. Like, say, an address from a famous and well know figure they all respected inspiring them to take action and save the country.
 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
I don't really doubt you - >50% coming from ~30% of the "US" population would seem like a fairly tall order, but I would like a source.
of course. I meant to put it in my last post and it slipped my mind.


 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
I didn't say there was "no fraud", I said it hadn't been proven that the entire election was fraudulent. This that whole disingenuous debating thing I was talking about. "We presented a bunch of random 'evidence' and made no further move to actually advance our position, clearly we are right".

Also, the fact the dems oppose it proves nothing. Democrats have been opposing republican proposals purely on the basis of them being republican proposals for years now.



I've seen one video of the cops moving one "barricade", located well outside of the capital building. A barricade that was waist high and totally insufficient to hold back a mob, so keeping in place was littlerally pointless.

There is a vast gulf between that, and your claim of the cops inviting them in to the capital itself, where the cops then suddenly changed their minds, barricaded everything, and then shoot a women.



That actually undermines your point. Yes, in theory a small number of liberal activist could prod a mob into taking action. But so could a small number of right wing activists. The "libs made them do it" theory implicitly assumes that had these liberal activists (who's actions during the riot are largely unknown, I must add) not acted, that no one else of any other political persuasion woyld have done anything to set things in motion either. That does not seem plausible.

Also, it's generally very hard to prod a mob into action unless it's been ruled up, which for a crowd like this would require something considerable. Like, say, an address from a famous and well know figure they all respected inspiring them to take action and save the country.
Did you see the video where the famous face painted guy and some others were talking to the police and they literally were like (paraphrase) "we will let you in but you have to remain peaceful," and then megaphone guy is saying to the crowd (again, paraphrased) "they're going to let us in, but we have to remain peaceful"

They peacefully talked their way in. They were let in.


 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
I didn't say there was "no fraud", I said it hadn't been proven that the entire election was fraudulent. This that whole disingenuous debating thing I was talking about. "We presented a bunch of random 'evidence' and made no further move to actually advance our position, clearly we are right".

Also, the fact the dems oppose it proves nothing. Democrats have been opposing republican proposals purely on the basis of them being republican proposals for years now.
At least they have evidence; all you have are assertions and appeals to authority. Why can't you be honest with everyone and simply admit the fact that you just don't want to believe that the election was fraudulent? Because at this point? Your credibility as a rational human being is in the gutter.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Listen I voted for Trump, but I don’t believe the election was falsified. Trump did lose. I mean think about what the election being false means. The military the law enforcement most of society acknowledges Biden as winning the election its a fact. It’s really unlikely all these people got tricked and are brainwashed by Biden.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
Listen I voted for Trump, but I don’t believe the election was falsified. Trump did lose. I mean think about what the election being false means. The military the law enforcement most of society acknowledges Biden as winning the election its a fact. It’s really unlikely all these people got tricked and are brainwashed by Biden.
Would you have voted for Trump if he hadn't run as a Republican? I understand what the election being false means; probably far more than you do. And considering everything that's happened over the past couple decades, is it really so shocking that the Democrats managed to defraud the presidential election? I don't think it is, but maybe you just haven't been paying attention.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Listen I voted for Trump, but I don’t believe the election was falsified. Trump did lose. I mean think about what the election being false means. The military the law enforcement most of society acknowledges Biden as winning the election its a fact. It’s really unlikely all these people got tricked and are brainwashed by Biden.
It is false, and you need to accept that the election was stolen.

Deal with the ugly truth, don't run from it because you are afraid of the implications it brings with it.
Would you have voted for Trump if he hadn't run as a Republican? I understand what the election being false means; probably far more than you do. And considering everything that's happened over the past couple decades, is it really so shocking that the Democrats managed to defraud the presidential election? I don't think it is, but maybe you just haven't been paying attention.
A lot of people don't want to admit that we likely had our last free and fair election for POTUS election in 2016.

They want to keep pretending that the large and growing amount of evidence of election fraud and irregularities is nothing meaningful, and could not have swayed the election in any meaningful way.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
It is false, and you need to accept that the election was stolen.

Deal with the ugly truth, don't run from it because you are afraid of the implications it brings with it.
A lot of people don't want to admit that we likely had our last free and fair election for POTUS election in 2016.

They want to keep pretending that the large and growing amount of evidence of election fraud and irregularities is nothing meaningful, and could not have swayed the election in any meaningful way.
In a way, I almost envy their delusions; the future must look so much more hopeful in them.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
In a way, I almost envy their delusions; the future must look so much more hopeful in them.
Some of it is delusion, some of it is 'pride' that won't let them admit the evidence is growing stronger by the day, and some of it is probably "I wanted Trump gone, he is now, and thus the election came to the 'correct' result."

It usually seems to be people that support the establishment GOP and Uniparty who are the least willing to even look at the evidence.
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
Is this actually true? I think there's a general perception in America that "independents" are a midpoint between "moderate" democrats and "moderate" republicans, both of which disliked Jan 6th and blame Trump for it, so it must have come off poorly with independents as well, but it isn't really true that independents are a midpoint. I'd be interested to see any polling you or anyone has seen on the matter.

Polling I've seen that indicates that Independents are actually less likely to support an commission to investigate Jan 6th than Republicans are (and much less likely than Democrats), and more likely to support internal reviews than Republicans (and much more likely than Democrats). Other polling I've seen indicates that less than half of independents say they blame Trump (although significantly more than Republicans). Although other polling gives those that do blame Trump a narrow majority.

It seems a combination but also I’d note that the Politico story and the poll itself don’t say what the other 56% actually responded. I would not be surprised if there was a fair amount of “Not sure” or what, but that’s speculation. The general impression, though, and the Politico report and the poll indicate this as well, that it sure as hell didn’t help him.

As far as independents not backing a commission, I think that’s because they’re savvy enough to know that a crew handpicked by Nancy Pelosi is going to be as objective as China’s investigation into the origins of COVID, and that its only purposes are 1) stoking the base and the consequent donations, and 2) distracting from Biden’s multitude of fuckups.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Would you have voted for Trump if he hadn't run as a Republican? I understand what the election being false means; probably far more than you do. And considering everything that's happened over the past couple decades, is it really so shocking that the Democrats managed to defraud the presidential election? I don't think it is, but maybe you just haven't been paying attention.
Trump isn’t the best candidate but I’d vote for him over sleepy joe or Shitlary Clinton.

It is false, and you need to accept that the election was stolen.

Deal with the ugly truth, don't run from it because you are afraid of the implications it brings with it.
Ok in a few posts maybe tomorrow at the latest, I’ll tell you where I’m going with it and why the election being stolen is bad. But I’m curious on your thoughts assuming that the election was stolen and January 6 and up to the present day what are the implications of that?
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Ok in a few posts maybe tomorrow at the latest, I’ll tell you where I’m going with it and why the election being stolen is bad. But I’m curious on your thoughts assuming that the election was stolen and January 6 and up to the present day what are the implications of that?
Oh, I am well aware of the implications of the election being stolen; I came to accept those implications months ago.

I learned to live with the knowledge that any pretense of America having free and fair elections anymore is dead, and that who you vote for doesn't matter, only who counts said votes matters.

However, I'm also not someone who sees the US as some 'Shining City on a Hill', more just another in a long line of hegemon's the world has seen, and can accept we aren't really any better than most banana republics now.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
And I would have voted for him over pretty much anyone else in the GOP, had he ran as an independent.
I think that’s crazy he is better than RINOs but he is still self serving and Cruz and Paul are better.

Oh, I am well aware of the implications of the election being stolen; I came to accept those implications months ago.

I learned to live with the knowledge that any pretense of America having free and fair elections anymore is dead, and that who you vote for doesn't matter, only who counts said votes matters.

However, I'm also not someone who sees the US as some 'Shining City on a Hill', more just another in a long line of hegemon's the world has seen, and can accept we aren't really any better than most banana republics now.
So we are a banana republic ok you are getting closer with the implications but what about the soldiers and police those who swore to protect this country and it’s citizens rights who obey the government. What does that make them if they did nothing to stop the country from being taken over and now obey the one who took it over. There are three options. Can you guess what they are?
 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
I think denying that fraud happened because you're afraid of "the implications," is a total pussy move.

Yes the implications suck. We aren't hoping and praying the election was stolen, we wish it wasn't! I think all of us would prefer a legitimate Biden win over this, because we all know the implications are fucking terrifying and ugly.

But the evidence keeps pointing that way.

I've seen enough to believe this election was fraudulent, and I'm not happy about it. At one point I was losing sleep over it. I've come more to terms with it these days now. It's just a sad and frightening highly probable reality that I am forced to live with.

I'm not going to just close my eyes, plug my ears and pretend it's not real because the implications are scary, though.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
I'm personally sitting on the middle ground with fraud. It might not have been as wide ranging as some on here think, but there could well have been enough to swing it in key states and it is sadly in character for the Democrats. At the very least I would say something fishy went down, and clearly many Republicans agree with me.

I mean, state house Republicans wouldn't be in full on attack mode, as if attempting to head the Dems off at the pass before 2022, over nothing.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
I think that’s crazy he is better than RINOs but he is still self serving and Cruz and Paul are better.
Rand Paul is pretty decent, I'll give you that (though I much prefer his father); but Ted Cruz just comes across to me like he's playing a character for the cameras, and isn't genuine.
 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
I'm personally sitting on the middle ground with fraud. It might not have been as wide ranging as some on here think, but there could well have been enough to swing it in key states and it is sadly in character for the Democrats. At the very least I would say something fishy went down, and clearly many Republicans agree with me.

I mean, state house Republicans wouldn't be in full on attack mode, as if attempting to head the Dems off at the pass before 2022, over nothing.
With the evidence we have seen, at the very least a considerable amount of fraud happened.

I can make room for arguments that it wasn't enough to sway the election, but acting like there wasn't a considerable amount is lunacy. (Not accusing you of such.)

It's an undeniable fact that states bypassed their legislatures and passed laws from the judicial bench to allow insecure voting to happen in the name of pandemic safety. That alone Is fraudulent and is not a deniable claim. We KNOW that happened. You can ignore all the other claims, there's massive fraud right there.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
It's an undeniable fact that states bypassed their legislatures and passed laws from the judicial bench to allow insecure voting to happen in the name of pandemic safety. That alone Is fraudulent and is not a deniable claim. We KNOW that happened. You can ignore all the other claims, there's massive fraud right there.

Absolutely not denying that. Something fishy happened, there's no ifs or buts about it. Swing states are big states and those would take a shit ton of fraud to swing.
 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
Absolutely not denying that. Something fishy happened, there's no ifs or buts about it. Swing states are big states and those would take a shit ton of fraud to swing.
I edited in that I wasn't blaming you for making such claims. I realized it looked like I might be, but I was just quoting and using your post as a springboard for mine, didn't mean to sound like I was accusing you.
 

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