Turkish-backed attack on Armenia by Azerbaijan with formal declaration of War

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Just burn one national flag of a rival nation at an international sporting event and people overreact. /s



But seriously, hosting the European Weightlifting Championship AND burning the flag of one of the nations invited to said event at its opening ceremony?

If you hate them, don't host the event that'll force you to host them or something.

Now keep in mind, the person who burned the flag wasn't doing it as an official act but the employee of some Armenian public broadcaster who was invited to the event. Said individual was released by the police without charges however.

 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
Just burn one national flag of a rival nation at an international sporting event and people overreact. /s



But seriously, hosting the European Weightlifting Championship AND burning the flag of one of the nations invited to said event at its opening ceremony?

If you hate them, don't host the event that'll force you to host them or something.

Now keep in mind, the person who burned the flag wasn't doing it as an official act but the employee of some Armenian public broadcaster who was invited to the event. Said individual was released by the police without charges however.



I know many Azerbaijanis (primarily women though, so I might be biased) and the friendly acquiantance I tutor is a good soul, but I have little sympathy for their degenerate government.

It would probably be worse if he hadn't be detained.


Sette morti per gli scontri a fuoco alla frontiera tra Armenia e Azerbaigian 7 dead between the frontiers of Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Also, it might happened because of this. @Husky_Khan

Except for Turkish and Azeri press, the rest of the digital press seem to mention that the flag burning is related to the last 33 years of tensions.


Also apparently since the Armenians have felt left alone in the last conflicts, they seem to be shifting towards amicable towards the USA.



But it looks sourceless.

What is your opinion on this?
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
I know many Azerbaijanis (primarily women though, so I might be biased) and the friendly acquiantance I tutor is a good soul, but I have little sympathy for their degenerate government.

It would probably be worse if he hadn't be detained.


Sette morti per gli scontri a fuoco alla frontiera tra Armenia e Azerbaigian 7 dead between the frontiers of Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Also, it might happened because of this. @Husky_Khan

Except for Turkish and Azeri press, the rest of the digital press seem to mention that the flag burning is related to the last 33 years of tensions.


Also apparently since the Armenians have felt left alone in the last conflicts, they seem to be shifting towards amicable towards the USA.



But it looks sourceless.

What is your opinion on this?


Well I don't think my opinion is worth much... but since you asked... :p

I think Armenia is just in extremely unfortunate circumstances. I know Russia and pro-Russian advocates think the 2018 Armenian Elections were basically the same as 2014's Maidan in Ukraine, but Pashinyan didn't actually do much to move Armenia from Russian orbit and instead just had the audacity of trying to improve relations with problematic countries like Turkey (which Russia was doing the same with) and a more neutral stance regarding NATO-EU countries. The 2018 Armenian Revolution that propelled him to power wasn't due to foreign relations primarily like the Ukrainian thing, but the ridiculous amounts of corruption and inefficiency in the Armenian government at the time which was somehow significantly worse than even its neighbors. But apparently that was enough for relations between Putin and Pashinyan to grow cold. And Azerbaijan pragmatically and despicably took advantage of Armenia's relative isolation to seize the Karabakh Region.

Ever since Russia launched its Invasion of Ukraine, Armenia has really been isolated diplomatically (as well as geographically). Azerbaijan, despite being supported by Turkey and Israel and there being a lot of Western sympathy for them, is also in the position to exert influence over Russia as well who apparently can't afford to antagonize Azerbaijan while also being involved in Ukraine. And Russia still has hundreds of millions of dollars worth of military equipment it has to send to Armenia... but hasn't AFAIK. And when the Azeris pretty brazenly attacked internationally recognized Armenian territory and closed the Lachin Corridor etc, the Russian led CSTO didn't really do anything.

I don't think the EU/NATO can do much either to be honest, beyond perhaps exerting diplomatic influence upon Azerbaijan and Turkey (and Israel) and that's doubly so due to natural gas pipeline issues. Georgia, despite recent issues, seems to be pretty much in the anti-Russian camp atm and has supported Turkey/Azerbaijan over this whole affair due to the numerous conflicts Russia and Georgia have had.

Continuing and improving relations with Iran was probably Pashinyan's best gambit regarding foreign policy and I think its important since they are the only major power who could interfere since the EU/NATO is too compromised and far away and Russia is too weak and distracted. I hope Azerbaijan stops being so aggressive towards Armenia though, the latter has my sympathies in the whole affair regardless of their recent foreign policy. Karabakh is mostly Armenian and has been for a long time AFAIK as well. But even if Karabakh is lost, Armenia has every right to be safe and secure in its own internationally recognized borders at the very least.
 

lordhen

Well-known member
I know many Azerbaijanis (primarily women though, so I might be biased) and the friendly acquiantance I tutor is a good soul, but I have little sympathy for their degenerate government.

It would probably be worse if he hadn't be detained.


Sette morti per gli scontri a fuoco alla frontiera tra Armenia e Azerbaigian 7 dead between the frontiers of Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Also, it might happened because of this. @Husky_Khan

Except for Turkish and Azeri press, the rest of the digital press seem to mention that the flag burning is related to the last 33 years of tensions.


Also apparently since the Armenians have felt left alone in the last conflicts, they seem to be shifting towards amicable towards the USA.



But it looks sourceless.

What is your opinion on this?


Strange world we live in, Armenia a country backed by Iran and Russia gets to join a NATO exercise while on a other hand we have Azerbaijan a country backed by Turkey, a NATO member and Israel.
 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
Perhaps.

There is a huge worldwide Armenian diaspora however.

Could just be France being France selling arms wherever they can.

Armenia undoubtedly needs them since Russia for some mysterious reason has been unable to fulfill its deliveries as of late.
Despite I have a soft spot for Anatolian beauties, I am cheering for Armenia.

I had the displeasure of having a Turkish ex trying to convince me the genocide never happened.

I am also interested in travelling in the Caucasus. All three of them.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
The United States is hosting peace talks with the Foreign Ministers of Armenia and Azerbaijan, with Secretary of State Blinken having met the Ministers separately on Monday in a diplomatic facility in Arlington, Virginia before meeting with both parties in bilateral peace talks and negotiations expected to go through Thursday (today).

The main issues are the opening of the Lachin Corridor and the normalization of relations between the two countries.

 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
@Husky_Khan I think this might be relevant.

Just take it with a grain of salt. This guy in my opinion gets right many things but others he misses completely, like when he talks about Lula's Brazil.

I got interested because I have a Syrian-Armenian friend and an Azeri friendly acquaintance / guy I gave tutoring in Italian.
 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist




 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist

THE WEST SHOULD NOT ABANDON ARMENIA​

6 . 1 . 23
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More than 120,000 Christian Armenians continue to face the threat of ethnic cleansing in Nagorno Karabakh, a region inside Azerbaijan. Over the past few weeks, the E.U., the U.S., and Russia have hosted rounds of talks about the crisis between Armenia and Azerbaijan. But these meetings are unlikely to resolve the crisis, even though Armenia recently made painful and substantial concessions. Given the indifference and, frankly, complicity of outside powers, the Azeri strongman, President Ilham Aliyev, has little incentive to negotiate in good faith—and his declared ambitions include not only Karabakh, but Armenia itself. The international community needs to do more than convene meetings to avoid a humanitarian catastrophe.
As I explained last year, the current crisis is the latest episode in a conflict that dates to the Armenian Genocide of 1915, when the Ottomans eliminated the Armenian Christians of Anatolia in hopes of creating a pan-Turkic empire that would extend from the Mediterranean through the Caucasus into Central Asia. Karabakh survived the genocide and Joseph Stalin made it an autonomous region within the newly created (and Muslim-majority) Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic in the 1920s. When the Soviet Union dissolved, Karabakh Armenians declared independence. A brutal war ensued, after which Armenians controlled Karabakh and several surrounding regions they held as bargaining chips for an eventual settlement.
In the succeeding decades, flush with money from its natural gas industry, Azerbaijan built up its military. In September 2020, the Azeris attacked and reconquered all the surrounding regions and parts of Karabakh. At the time, Turkish President Erdogan boasted of "fulfilling the mission of our grandfathers in the Caucasus." Russia, supposedly Armenia's protector, intervened only at the last minute and fashioned a ceasefire agreement in November 2020 that the parties agreed would last five years.
The Russian-brokered ceasefire has been a farce. Although it has some 2000 peacekeepers in the region, Russia has shown itself unable—or, more likely, unwilling—to stop continued Azeri aggression. Azerbaijan has launched two large-scale invasions of Armenia since the ceasefire was proclaimed, seizing significant territory while Russian peacekeepers stood by. Since December, Azerbaijan has blockaded Karabakh, creating a humanitarian crisis. In February, the International Court of Justice ruled that the blockade violates international law and ordered Azerbaijan to reopen the road that links Karabakh to the outside world. The Azeri government has simply ignored the ruling.
Azerbaijan can safely do so because it knows Russia would block enforcement of the ICJ's ruling in the U.N. Security Council. This might come as a surprise to Americans, who assume that Armenia and Russia are partners. That hasn't been the case for years. Armenia's current government is pro-Western and has tried to balance the country's economic and military ties with Russia with new links to Europe and the U.S. This is popular in Armenia. Armenians resent Russia's failure to honor treaty obligations and protect Armenia when Azerbaijan invaded in September 2022, and Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan has publicly questioned whether Armenia will remain in the CSTO, the Russian-led security organization. A recent poll shows that a majority of Armenians now think of France and the U.S. as potential political partners rather than Russia.
In fact, Azerbaijan, not Armenia, has become Russia's key ally in the South Caucasus. Two days before Russia invaded Ukraine, Aliyev traveled to Moscow to sign a cooperation agreement with the Russian government—an agreement, he boasted, "that brings our relations to the level of an alliance." Azerbaijan touts itself as an alternative source of natural gas for Europe, but in fact it quietly purchases gas from Russian companies, thereby allowing Russia to avoid Western sanctions. It recently announced an Azeri-Russian-Iranian partnership to build a transport corridor to link the three countries—and exclude Western interests from the South Caucasus hub.
Western governments see all this, which explains why they have become increasingly active in the region. The U.S. intervened diplomatically to stop Azerbaijan's invasion of Armenia in September 2022. Over strenuous Russian objections, the E.U. has placed civilian observers on Armenia's border with Azerbaijan. And, as I wrote above, both the E.U. and the U.S. are now competing with Russia to resolve the crisis with diplomatic talks—on Western terms.
There seem to be limits, though, to how far the West will push Aliyev. Notwithstanding his ties to Putin, the West sees Aliyev as at least a potential foil against Russia—and, given the Ukraine conflict, the West is willing mostly to look the other way when it comes to Aliyev's menacing of his democratic neighbor. The E.U. signed a deal for the importation of natural gas from Azerbaijan last summer and has praised Aliyev as a "reliable" and "crucial energy partner." The E.U. might send civilian monitors, but it is unlikely to take too hard a line. The U.S. thinks it can perhaps use Azerbaijan to keep neighboring Iran in check; Israel thinks so too. So Aliyev can continue to play a double game, cozying up to Russia while remaining interesting enough to the West to avoid serious sanctions.
But without sanctions or other serious action, Aliyev will continue to treat Armenian concessions as invitations to engage in further aggression. For example, in negotiations in Brussels last month, both Armenia and Azerbaijan agreed to recognize each other's territorial integrity and discussed reopening railway connections based on mutual reciprocity. Pashinyan subsequently confirmed that Armenia was ready to recognize Azeri sovereignty over Karabakh (provided arrangements could be made to guarantee Armenians' security there)—a painful public concession, apparently made at the urging of the U.S., which caused anger in Karabakh itself.
How did Aliyev respond? After Pashinyan's statement, Aliyev again threatened Karabakh Armenians with ethnic cleansing and, for good measure, threatened Armenia as well. Armenia would have to agree to Azerbaijan's demands with respect to border demarcation, he announced, or face further aggression. "The border will pass where we say," Aliyev crowed. "They know that we can do it. No one will help them." A bewildered Pashinyan asked whether Aliyev was already abandoning the position he had taken in Brussels and demanded clarification. The U.S. has not yet responded.
Since Russia invaded Ukraine, American and European leaders have spoken of the need to defend democracy and self-determination against authoritarian aggression. That is precisely what is needed in the South Caucasus now. At the very least, Western sanctions against the Aliyev regime should be on the table. Even in realist terms, it would not be in the West's interest to abandon Armenia, which is looking to reorient itself and which can serve, in time, as an important bridge between the West, the South Caucasus, and beyond. Unless the West creates greater incentives for Azerbaijan to negotiate in good faith, however, a humanitarian crisis looks about to unfold.
Mark Movsesian is the Frederick A. Whitney Professor and Co-Director of the Center for Law and Religion at St. John's University.
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Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Strange world we live in, Armenia a country backed by Iran and Russia gets to join a NATO exercise while on a other hand we have Azerbaijan a country backed by Turkey, a NATO member and Israel.

War and politics both make for strange bedfellows.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
The CSTO prohibits their members from signing any other defense agreements. Only the CSTO can intervene in their behalf thusly.

India and France are selling them weapons recently. Russia meanwhile has billions in a backlog of arms for Armenia.

Azerbaijan has accused Russian Peacekeepers of supplying arms to Artsakh Separatists but no tangible proof. And a few weeks ago Russian Peacekeepers were fired up on and some wounded by Azeri fire amongst all of the low level skirmishing that's gone on.



 

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