United States US presidential election 2024

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
Hoping to try and bring this back on track...

So Trump came out with a video where he said that abortion is now a matter for the states.

Does this significantly disarm the Dems push to reinvigorate the Abortion debate and gin up emotional anger in their base?
No, because it literally doesn't matter that he says, they will either pretend he didn't say it, or just claim he is lying if you play them the clip. They did this before when it came to claiming he wouldn't condemn white supremacists. You could play them the clip show of him doing it repeatedly, and the only thing that would change is they would go from claiming he wouldn't do it to claiming he was lying.
 

DarthOne

☦️
Hoping to try and bring this back on track...

So Trump came out with a video where he said that abortion is now a matter for the states.

Does this significantly disarm the Dems push to reinvigorate the Abortion debate and gin up emotional anger in their base?

It does for those who actually pay attention and venture outside of Leftist bubbles, as pointed out.

That said, abortion really wasn't the big issue the Dems made it out to be. As can be seen by looking at various polling done at the time. The failure of the GOP in the 2022 Midterm owes more to GOP (intentional on the part of the RINOs and Neo-Cons) self-sabotage.

Razorfist talks about it here:



About a 1:35 and onward for two minutes.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
It's relevant to note Ukraine has a single-digit number of refineries because they're small (and were more an oil transit-point from Russia to Europe than a domestic refiner themselves).

That said, Russia droned what wikipedia claims to be the largest refinery in the country in September of last year (and the article notes had attempted strikes before as well).

The wiki-claimed second-largest refinery in the country was attacked in April of the previous year directly in the aftermath of the hostilities starting (captured later in the year).

Also in April two years ago there were Russian strikes on (wiki-claimed fourth-largest) oil refinery and storage in Odessa.

So, even restricting the conversation entirely to oil (which isn't exactly an equal comparison since a lot of Ukraine's fuel is coal or nuclear and both have also been recipients of Russian missiles or drones), targeting oil refineries is nothing new. Ukraine is by no means breaking new ground on that front.

It is also worth note that Ukrainian strikes have, to-date, struck refineries and such more consistently than Russian strikes which have overlapped, by either failed targeting or intention we can't for-certain say which, into strikes on apartment buildings and other much more explicitly fully-civilian structures. Part of that is probably a function of Ukraine having less capability in general for these strikes so lower sample-size, and part of it is probably western aid allowing better targeting on their part than Russia...And they're probably incentivized to avoid bad PR for them while Russia has much less of a problem with that.

And intentional strikes on civilian buildings to encourage surrender would not be unheard of from Russia and, particularly, Putin, since it was practiced in Grozny.

*BIG BREATH*
AND to drag this back to some semblance of the thread's topic, that's why the Biden administration's messaging/handling of the issue is bonkers and something he absolutely deserves to take political heat on. Trying to arm-jaggle Ukraine not to actually fight the war we encouraged them towards and have expressed support for is some grade-A silliness. Bad enough when political bullshittery from the 'Best and Brightest' got injected into America's Vietnam war by those folks and got America's ass thrown out, now we're trying to vicariously sabotage our patsies/puppets/allies/clients war efforts on the same political bullshit-basis (and it's not even a very good political bullshit-basis...Putin may be many things, including much more inured to civilian deaths than the West is--which also probly goes for Ukraine in general as well--but he's not an irrational actor by all we can tell, merely a very, very Russian one with a completely different realm of interests and historiography, even).

Anyhow, The State Department is full of imbeciles who are convinced they're intelligent.
Thank you. this was helpful.

All my news about Ukraine-russia war comes from this forum. So, it is a bit skewed since people seem to not be posting "obvious" stuff.

While also heavily focusing on painting a picture of total ukrainian domination and victory.
No, I am not shifting the goalposts.

Oil/fuel infrastructure is always a useful military target, while also serving civilian utilities.
This is like saying food is always a useful military target, while also civilian civilian utilities.
In short, it is a blatant lie made by someone who should know better.

I don't understand why you keep on insisting that fuel, an absolute necessity for not starving to death for the vast majority of humanity, is a core civilian infrastructure.
If 'limited warfare' in contrast to 'total war' were ever an option,
You are mixing up completely unrelated argument.

For some reason you absolutely refuse to separate the argument of
"is fuel a necessity of life for civilians" from arguments about this war in the specific.
The question about whether fuel is civilian or not is totally unrelated to Ukraine.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Thank you. this was helpful.

All my news about Ukraine-russia war comes from this forum. So, it is a bit skewed since people seem to not be posting "obvious" stuff.

While also heavily focusing on painting a picture of total ukrainian domination and victory.

This is like saying food is always a useful military target, while also civilian civilian utilities.
In short, it is a blatant lie made by someone who should know better.

I don't understand why you keep on insisting that fuel, an absolute necessity for not starving to death for the vast majority of humanity, is a core civilian infrastructure.

You are mixing up completely unrelated argument.

For some reason you absolutely refuse to separate the argument of
"is fuel a necessity of life for civilians" from arguments about this war in the specific.
The question about whether fuel is civilian or not is totally unrelated to Ukraine.
In a hypothetical limited war, where both countries were consciously deciding to follow agreed upon limitations, industrial infrastructure like fuel supply chains might be considered off target.

The war in Ukraine is not a limited war in this sense. Dual-use infrastructure has been on the table since Russia started bombing both that, and civilian residences, very early on.

We are discussing whether or not it is ethical for Ukraine in this war to bomb Russia's fuel/oil infrastructure.

In the context of this, the answer very clearly is 'yes, Russia is prosecuting a war to the knife, so it is appropriate for Ukraine to treat it as a war to the knife.'

If you want to have a conversation about a hypothetical limited war, we can have that in another thread. This is already kind of a weird place for this thread to have gone, only really relevant because of the Biden admin saying stupid things about exactly this topic.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
In a hypothetical limited war, where both countries were consciously deciding to follow agreed upon limitations, industrial infrastructure like fuel supply chains might be considered off target.
thank you. I am glad we can agree on that
The war in Ukraine is not a limited war in this sense.
Fair.
This war has clearly escalated into total war territory already.
We are discussing whether or not it is ethical for Ukraine in this war to bomb Russia's fuel/oil infrastructure.
Right, but in the process of discussing it, a tangential debate came about in regards to fuel in all wars. and the difference between limited war and total war.

I was very explicit that I am staying out of the question of whether or not Ukraine should bomb Russia's fuel.
Albeit sometimes when people argued that "yes it should" they did so with arguments like "fuel is valid target for all wars"

To start a new tangent.
I think that "is it Ethical" is the wrong question.
The question is whether it is politically wise of them to do so.

It damages the russian economy, and thus the russian ability to wage war.
But it also damages pro ukraine support from the govts that have been using it as a proxy against Russia.
it is a double edged sword that benefits and harms them.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Basically, @mrttao mis communication of what has been going on.
thank you. I am glad we can agree on that

Fair.
This war has clearly escalated into total war territory already.

Right, but in the process of discussing it, a tangential debate came about in regards to fuel in all wars. and the difference between limited war and total war.

I was very explicit that I am staying out of the question of whether or not Ukraine should bomb Russia's fuel.
Albeit sometimes when people argued that "yes it should" they did so with arguments like "fuel is valid target for all wars"

To start a new tangent.
I think that "is it Ethical" is the wrong question.
The question is whether it is politically wise of them to do so.

It damages the russian economy, and thus the russian ability to wage war.
But it also damages pro ukraine support from the govts that have been using it as a proxy against Russia.
it is a double edged sword that benefits and harms them.
And ethical is always a funny term when war is invovled.
Winning the war is not always ethical, see Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
Basically, @mrttao mis communication of what has been going on.
I repeatedly explicitly clearly stated it. In almost every single post since this started.
Some people were very adamant about their position that "this is how all war is"
Most of this was clearly rthetical trickery rather than miscommunication.
Or people so frothing at the mouth they refuse to read and just do backflips leaping into whatever conclusion suits them
And ethical is always a funny term when war is invovled.
Winning the war is not always ethical, see Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
This is assuming that Ukraine wins thanks to bombing the Russian Fuel.

They are snubbing the deep state that view themselves as the absolute rulers of the entire world by ignoring their instructions.
How do you think the people who hold biden's leash will react to Ukraine doing so?

Hence this is a double edged sword for Ukraine. It hurts Russia. But it angers the puppet masters who back Ukraine.
 
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Buba

A total creep
With the candidates decided by mid March it is boring until the autumn, I suppose. Hence the drift into non sequitur.
 
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DarthOne

☦️


Holy fuck

READ THIS

they stole 2024 back in 2021

https://whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2021/03/07/executive-order-on-promoting-access-to-voting/…


GK7tT5GXIAA7NHs
 

DarthOne

☦️
@DarthOne @Bigking321 @Zacharguy

Executive orders have zero power without a specific Federal Law backing them up. Like many of Biden's ExOrds, this one is pretty useless if a state wants to ignore it.

Where States have their own voter ID laws the specific IDs that qualify are enumerated.
Question is, how many will? Either because they’re Democrats or just hate/fear Trump enough?
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Question is, how many will? Either because they’re Democrats or just hate/fear Trump enough?
@DarthOne @Bigking321 @Zacharguy

Executive orders have zero power without a specific Federal Law backing them up. Like many of Biden's ExOrds, this one is pretty useless if a state wants to ignore it.

Where States have their own voter ID laws the specific IDs that qualify are enumerated.
Do you forget to mention me or did you put the wrong guy starting with zach.
 

49ersfootball

Well-known member
I didn't say it was the best you *could* get, I said it's the best you will get because Biden is the more hawkish of the two candidates.

We shall see
1.) Bush 43 wins reelection in 2004: Backlash in the 2006 Midterms.

2.) Obama wins the Presidency in 2008: GOP Wave in 2009 & 2010 Midterms with the GOP winning 63 House seats & flipping 7 Senate seats.

3.) Obama wins reelection in 2012: GOP Wave in 2014 Midterms with the GOP winning 9 Senate seats & flipping control of the United States Senate.

4.) Trump wins in 2016: Mixed 2018 Midterms with Dems winning 42 House seats & flipping control of the US House of Representatives. Yet, GOP kept control of the United States Senate by flipping ND, MO, IN & FL.
 

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