History Western Civilization, Rome and Cyclical History

Navarro

Well-known member
Well, I referenced Mohism -- one of the so-called Hundred Schools of Thought that flourished during the Era of Contending States in ancient China. It was highly influential at the time; in serious competition with rivaling schools (e.g. Legalism), and influencing the policies of various states and the ideas of its competitors. (One might say: the same way that socialist economics certainly informed fascism, too.)

One has to note also that Mohism died because the other schools of thought took for themselves everything that was appealing about it and its main selling point, siege warfare, was redundant because China had now been unified.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
This may be a bit off-topic...

But what was appealing about Mohism in ancient China? Not very well versed on that time period.

According to Wiki:

By the middle of the former Han dynasty, the more appealing aspects of Mohist thought were all shared with rival schools:

Their core ethical doctrines had largely been absorbed into Confucianism, though in a modified and unsystematic form. Key features of their political philosophy were probably shared with most other political thinkers, and their trademark opposition to warfare had been rendered effectively redundant by unification. The philosophy of language, epistemology, metaphysics, and science of the later Mohist Canons were recorded in difficult, dense texts that would have been nearly unintelligible to most readers (and that in any case quickly became corrupt).

What remained as distinctively Mohist was a package of harsh, unappealing economic and cultural views, such as their obsession with parsimony and their rejection of music and ritual. Compared with the classical learning and rituals of the Confucians, the speculative metaphysics of Yin-Yang thinkers, and the romantic nature mysticism and literary sophistication of the Daoists, Mohism offered little to attract adherents, especially politically powerful ones."
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
From what i've seen really no.

Human beings have a tendency to want to learn everything the hard way, the good news is that lessons learned the hard way tend to stick, the bad news is that the process sucks balls.
They may stick for the individual, but when those individuals are out of the picture, the new guys always end up making the same mistakes. History is going to keep repeating itself until we find a way to keep those who already learned the hard lessons around, so that they can continue smacking future generations upside the head when they're being stupid.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
They may stick for the individual, but when those individuals are out of the picture, the new guys always end up making the same mistakes. History is going to keep repeating itself until we find a way to keep those who already learned the hard lessons around, so that they can continue smacking future generations upside the head when they're being stupid.

the reason why we have historical cycles is because history is often a series of action and reactions.

Sure you get the ocasional great man but only when the society in question allows them to exist.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
the reason why we have historical cycles is because history is often a series of action and reactions.

Sure you get the ocasional great man but only when the society in question allows them to exist.
I'm just saying; if we were all immortal, maybe those of us who learned from experience could help all future generations avoid having to repeat the same mistakes, over and over again.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
I'm just saying; if we were all immortal, maybe those of us who learned from experience could help all future generations avoid having to repeat the same mistakes, over and over again.
There are enough people saying "I told you so" about things already that I know you would only get the same result: The right to spin your chair while screaming "Fuck you I was right" as you watch the world burn.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
There are enough people saying "I told you so" about things already that I know you would only get the same result: The right to spin your chair while screaming "Fuck you I was right" as you watch the world burn.
That has more to do with the fact that we're already screwed, and have been for decades; ideally, anyone who survived what's coming would be able to stop something like this from happening again before it starts.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
We've been warned about everything that is happening since I was a child.
Honestly, I think we might have been screwed since our great-grandparents were children; because this all seems to trace back to our country's failure to stop communism from gaining a foothold here in the 1920s through the 1940s. By the time we were born, it was already too late.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
Honestly, I think we might have been screwed since our great-grandparents were children; because this all seems to trace back to our country's failure to stop communism from gaining a foothold here in the 1920s through the 1940s. By the time we were born, it was already too late.

This doom has been building over our heads since Philip the Fair raised his hand against Mother Church and William of Ockham and Martin Luther brought wicked ideas wriggling into the world to worm their ways into the minds of men.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Honestly, I think we might have been screwed since our great-grandparents were children; because this all seems to trace back to our country's failure to stop communism from gaining a foothold here in the 1920s through the 1940s. By the time we were born, it was already too late.

Western civilization is not doomed its just going through its sucky emo phase.

Granted when civilizations get into cutting and hurting themselves its a lot more damaging then when actual person does it. It will suck and it will be painful but I honestly think we will pull through it, just not in any of our lifetimes.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
just not in any of our lifetimes.

Nah. This will have mostly blown over by the end of this century. We haven't even hit the end of its first quarter and all this is already wildly unpopular with people. Anyway, it's all being driven by a bunch of bloody stupid elites, doomed to be supplanted by a new paradigm somewhat soon, no matter how much they dig their heels in and pretend everything is good.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
More broadly, I wonder if it’s possible that today’s reigning ideologies would basically be remembered as disparate offshoots of a shared premise—that is, a belief in a utopian “end stage” of history that can be reached via this or that ideology? Yes, I remember you referencing Mohism and how future generations might be similarly baffled when told that people actually took the movements of Modernity seriously. I also imagine that it’s possible that communism, fascism, and liberal democracy are more or less dismissed as products of delusional Whiggish aspirations towards some final ideal that didn’t pan out as planned—despite centuries of promises to the contrary. At that point, perhaps only scholars and dedicated students would give a damn about the distinctions between them, with everyone else blinking in confusion before moving on with their day. They’d also be baffled at how even the less ideological cohorts of Modernity still clung to a notion of continuous progress, with an implicit expectation that the world of 2265 would resemble Star Trek more than Dune. Re-watching archived footage of the former would be a perpetual source of bemusement for denizens of the twenty-second century, I’d think. Whereas studying the latter, while it's still fictional, might convince them that Frank Herbert was on the right track after all.
5 Scary Questions About The Future (No One Wants To Ask) by David Wong said:
What If Our Collective Idea Of Happiness Is Just Wrong?

If you hear somebody lamenting that society is descending into "degeneracy," you now know what an asshole sounds like. To that guy, everything that doesn't fit into his specific tastes and values, from furries to vegans, is a sign that civilization is in decline. How fortunate for him that the behaviors that make civilization work happen to align perfectly with his own personal preferences.

But while I'm disagreeing with his specific examples, behind them is the unspoken question that keeps me up at night: What if the things that make individuals happy, and the things that help a culture survive long-term, are not the same things?

This was the undercurrent of the Red Scare ("What if the Soviet method of crushing dissent and restricting economic choice is just more efficient in the long run?"), the War on Terror ("What if religious zealotry is more powerful than secular indifference?") and our fear of a rising China ("At the outset of COVID they just physically locked citizens in their homes by force and it totally worked!").

What if it turns out that oppressive traditions like arranged marriages, blind patriotism, and blasphemy laws actually give a culture an advantage over an enemy that has abandoned them? What if all of the morals we value most today -- freedom to choose your fate, to follow your dreams, to fall in love -- are, in fact, the product of Disney screenwriters, feel-good junk food crafted to sell merchandise? What if we really have, as a culture, grown soft? I can't prove otherwise. Can you?

And to be clear, I'm not pointing the finger at anyone but myself here. I don't have children, even though I have a yard, a spare bedroom, and a penis that almost works too well. Shouldn't I be forced to raise at least two replacement kids and train them in some high-value task? Shit, am I even doing a high-value task? I make a good living writing escapist novels with increasingly stupid titles. Isn't that a frivolous inefficiency in the system? Shouldn't somebody be forcing me to write patriotic propaganda or cautionary tales about climate change?

I spent thousands of dollars on vet bills when my dog got cancer; would that be allowed in a perfectly just and efficient society? In fact, should people capable of treating cancer even be allowed to waste their talents on dogs?

It's entirely possible that a century from now, the dominant superpower will look back at our movies and TV shows and cringe just as hard as we do when watching racist old cartoons. "Look how they gave food and shelter to the unemployed artists, instead of simply exterminating them and freeing up resources for military conquest!" Maybe everything I'm doing, from this article to my stupid book to paying for doggie daycare, is just one more example of the shameful excess made possible by a wayward and doomed society.
Memphet'ran said:
Before I do the rest of this chapter, I want to make a little commentary on implications of the state of the world for what we've seen in this story.

Remember that anvilicious schoolroom scene in Chapter 1, with the teacher going "we must pay the Jizya ... we must submit to the Sharia ... slavery is a part of jihad and jihad is a part of Islam..."?

Let's think about what sort of lessons we might hear in classrooms in the world we just saw. Not just classrooms of the Caliphates, but classrooms of the Socialist Tsarist Russian Empire, and the American Empire, and so on. Because I think there'd be some striking similarities in the government-approved school history lessons in all these sprawling authoritarian empires.

We're looking at a world in which the anti-WEIRD coalition has triumphed, and triumphed in exactly the way it expected to. The character of that triumph and the kind of people it has brought to power varies depending on which authoritarian empire you're looking at, but there's a common theme in all of them: the repudiation of liberalism. Liberal democracy in this world is going to be considered like Communism in ours: a well-intentioned but failed ideology at best. The fate of the European democracies will be taken as an object lesson in that failure: a demonstration of how liberalism created a population of enfeebled, feminized, deracinated Last Men, living only for the satiation of want, utterly disconnected from any higher purpose or any of the things that put them at the top of the food chain, and ripe to be knocked down a peg or three by a more vigorous race less receptive to the infection. A population so selfish and enfeebled that it could not even bring itself to reproduce itself. Oh yes, that gendered language is quite deliberate - it has been said that the empowerment of women is the world's greatest contraceptive; you bet anti-feminists are going to jump on the idea that a failure to pump out sufficient babies doomed Europe to be overrun by a more "gender realist" culture.

In short, this is a world where the reactionaries have won, and they're going to rub it in everyone's face and be really smug about it. And why not? A world more perfectly designed to confirm all their beliefs, make them feel history has vindicated them, could hardly be imagined.

And this is going to be true in all the authoritarian empires. Visit a classroom in the Caliphate of Europe and Western North Africa and the American Empire and you'll see the same kinds of lessons being drawn from history in both. It might be quite eerie.
Another thing I haven’t seen discussed as much is the role that climate change could play in determining which side wins. Should the consequences prove dire, then perhaps the Populist Left shouts “We told you so!” from the rooftops as its power and popularity surge to record heights. On the other hand, I can also potentially see more radical members hijacking the movement prematurely and quickly overstaying their welcome. Which, per action and reaction, would catapult the Populist Right into power as they hastily undo their predecessors’ reforms and rampage for a while before burning themselves out. Afterwards, it’s the Neo-Traditionalists’ turn to rule.
Depends, are you talking ecofascists of the 'everyone must lower their resource consumption and therefore consequentially, standard of living' type or the 'use force to monopolize all available resources for us, screw everyone else' varieties? The first type have better PR, insofar as they've got wealthy megacorporations paying for their propaganda machine in the certain expectation that their executives can keep their lifestyle, while the second seem more likely to have grassroots support from people who like their quality of life and would like to keep it.
...any that could achieve hegemony over the Eurasian heartland would be a contender for world domination -- and thus a natural threat to America.
Ceases to be a practical concern after 1949 when both the US and its greatest enemy had became nuclear powers and it became clear that the only thing a country required to keep out outright invasion was MAD deterrence. Of course that leaves all kinds of other forms of conquest and subversion and simply buying out goverments, but the threat of mutual thermonuclear suicide works.

You cannot perfect the world through continuous military occupation and warfare against effectively indefatigable decentralized guerrilla groups. You can merely wall off your piece of it while pointing enough doomsday weaponry at everyone else's pieces to make conflict a mutually suicidal prospect.

Good people defending the weak have failed to create peace. Evil people too scared to lose have succeeded. The absence of a third globe-spanning war between Major Powers with plausible casualties in the billions is proof that Alfred Nobel was right, he just drastically underestimated the explosiveness required.
Alfred Nobel said:
My dynamite will sooner lead to peace than a thousand world conventions. As soon as men will find that in one instant, whole armies can be utterly destroyed, they surely will abide by golden peace.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Depends, are you talking ecofascists of the 'everyone must lower their resource consumption and therefore consequentially, standard of living' type or the 'use force to monopolize all available resources for us, screw everyone else' varieties? The first type have better PR, insofar as they've got wealthy megacorporations paying for their propaganda machine in the certain expectation that their executives can keep their lifestyle, while the second seem more likely to have grassroots support from people who like their quality of life and would like to keep it.

Not this old myth again. :( There are some extremists on the reform groups that argue for such ideas but the vast bulk of such suggestions come from the misinformation from the wealthy mega-corporations who wish to block technological change because it threatens their easy profits.

Its perfectly possible to end fossil fuel problems without impacting on lifestyles in the developed world IF we can overcome the instructional interests that seek to block the developments of alternatives. The technology is largely there. Its just that vested interests are desperately seeking to block its development.

Similarly its perfectly clear we can't continue the way we're been doing by expanding fossil fuel use. Let alone expand similar living standards to the many who lack basic economic security across the world. Without the latter there is a lasting problem of continued international tension and disruption.

Steve
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
There are some extremists on the reform groups that argue for such ideas but the vast bulk of such suggestions come from the misinformation from the wealthy mega-corporations who wish to block technological change because it threatens their easy profits.

Its perfectly possible to end fossil fuel problems without impacting on lifestyles in the developed world IF we can overcome the instructional interests that seek to block the developments of alternatives. The technology is largely there. Its just that vested interests are desperately seeking to block its development.
If the non fossil fuels could be used as a replacement, they would be, because there would be more profit in a less scarce resource. Just like shale oil in the past, biofuel will be adopted as soon as it is cheap enough and oil is expensive enough to be viable.

All of the megacorps you think are blocking the alternatives, they are actually investing in the alternatives so that they can keep their power when the natural resources they rely on run out.

This is why car manufacturers began making electric cars so far back that the cost of the technology forced electric cars to be in the price range of luxury cars.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
In this day and age, there aren't any foreign lands that could be effectively plundered, so Caesar is off the table.
Which goes to think, how will space colonization affect this cycle?
The Caesar figure is the first billionaire technocrat to decide to bite the bullet and fund the creation of space-based infrastructure. This gives them the following advantages:
  • Essentially unlimited metal and rare earth ores from asteroid mining.
  • Essentially unlimited electricity from powersats.
  • The ability to back a currency off the value of said ores and electricity rather than fiat and still have essentially unlimited money since the money is backed by a hard value and they actually possess something equivalent to that value.
  • A perfect shelter from attacks by their enemies/competitors.
  • The ability to give their enemies the tunguska event treatment.
Or in other words, basically an automatic 'win everything' pass. In the age of nuclear MAD and societal norms preventing fighting guerilla insurgencies hiding among citizens in non-nuclear countries by means that work, the only form of empire that can work is the resource monopoly, and that's what space offers if it can be monopolized. The Emperor sells electricity and ore, cheaper than any earthbound competitors since they have an essentially unlimited amount, and rents use of communication satellites, hence, the threat of a boycott lets them blackmail obedience from every industrial society on the planet. Any vassal nation that threatens the Imperial monopoly, at a minimum, gets all its resources cut off until its leaders are overthrow by enraged citizens upset about the effect this had upon their quality of life, if not having the palaces of its leaders and its launch facilities leveled by ortillery.

Of course in the extreme long term, the empire is doomed, since eventually, an incompetent, decadent Emperor or even just some bureaucrats will try to cut costs by making their space infrastructure colonies self-sustain by processing the resources they gather directly into what they need, rather than maintaining the expensive interdependency of having to ship raw materials to earth in exchange for processed finished goods. It'll be very profitable at the time, even if it screws the empire in the long run by making the colonies into rivals. Suddenly, earth isn't the only market for raw materials, there're scattered independent factions buying up supplies to expand their intended-to-be-temporary ships into self-sustaining o'neill cylinder city-states. Or an imperial dynasty gets overthrown when an ambitious colonist with the technologies for moving around asteroids drops one on the imperial palace and proclaims themselves the new Emperor, though life might not actually change that much for the average citizen.
Not this old myth again. :( There are some extremists on the reform groups that argue for such ideas but the vast bulk of such suggestions come from the misinformation from the wealthy mega-corporations who wish to block technological change because it threatens their easy profits.
'Live in the pod, eat the bugs'. 'You will own nothing and be happy'. There might not be very many such extremists, but they have a disproportionate amount of power.
Its perfectly possible to end fossil fuel problems without impacting on lifestyles in the developed world IF we can overcome the instructional interests that seek to block the developments of alternatives. The technology is largely there. Its just that vested interests are desperately seeking to block its development.

Similarly its perfectly clear we can't continue the way we're been doing by expanding fossil fuel use. Let alone expand similar living standards to the many who lack basic economic security across the world. Without the latter there is a lasting problem of continued international tension and disruption.

Steve
Yes, theoretically, but as repeatedly noted, there isn't a proper 'build thorium reactors, powersats and asteroid mining infrastructure, now, anyone who disagrees isn't just a fool, they're actively your enemy, a corporatist who wants to use artificial scarcity to reduce you to a rent-serf' political party at all, let alone in power.
According to Reilly, there's a plague caused by Thing-esque bacteria from Europa. Then everything just goes to shit over time and genetically-engineered neo-barbarians rampage around doing Mad Max shenanigans while the Empire builds giant pointless megafactories until eventually it just withers away into nothing.
Who's Reilly and where's this coming from?
 

stevep

Well-known member
'Live in the pod, eat the bugs'. 'You will own nothing and be happy'. There might not be very many such extremists, but they have a disproportionate amount of power.

Are they that influential or the opponents exaggerating their importance to seek to discredit any reforms?

Yes, theoretically, but as repeatedly noted, there isn't a proper 'build thorium reactors, powersats and asteroid mining infrastructure, now, anyone who disagrees isn't just a fool, they're actively your enemy, a corporatist who wants to use artificial scarcity to reduce you to a rent-serf' political party at all, let alone in power.

No those things aren't available yet but their not needed.

Yes the more reactionary viewpoint does seek to divide and rule by fooling as many people as possible that there is no hope. As well as the ease of hatred rather than understanding.
 

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