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Philosophy When Does a Deconstruction/Reconstruction Become the Norm?

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So I'm watching scenes and reviews from both "The Boys" and "Invincible" and people are praising how the shows and comics are shocking and deconstructs (and in Invincibles' case reconstruct) typical superhero tropes. I don't know if this is a hot take or not, but I don't see how. The Watchmen was released in 1987 nearly 40 years ago, and commentary on "What if Superheroes but darker and edgier and mean" has existed throughout since then. Heck "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?" AKA "Superman Vs. The Elite" was a commentary about this dark and edgy take on cape myths all the way back in 2001. Between Sentry, New 52, Injustice Superman, Homelander, Omni-Man, Brightburn, and more, there seem to be more "deconstructed" supermen archetypes than played straight "archetypes" so much so to where these "hot new takes have their own tropes."

-Character is a pretty boy who is a thinly veiled Sociopath, Psychopath, or is emotionally damaged to a severe degree. Check
-Character uses his superhero persona to hide an ulterior motive. Check
-Character secretly (and sometimes not so secretly) despises those he's trying to save. Check
-Character is a not-so-subtle antichrist figure or a herald that will signal humanity's extinction or enslavement. Check

- Bonus points: a not-so-subtle metaphor about how "hur capitalism bad." Double Check

This stuff has been going on for decades now and is lasting as long if not longer than the ages and cliches they are deconstructing. At what point do things stop becoming Subversions of tropes and cliches, and start becoming the tropes and cliches? One thing, in particular, I find funny is that it's never the dark and edgy soap opera heroes that get deconstructed. Batman's stayed mostly the same for the better part of his run (save for some brief stints which are mostly memes now) every time Spider-man shakes things up and gives Peter a break, Marvel tries to reboot him as quickly as possible to where he's back to square one. and don't you dare touch the likes of the Punisher or Daredevil.

Heck If you really think about it, the flawed being with godlike power who is as much responsible for bringing chaos to the world as he is bringing order dates all the way back to ancient times thousands of years before the idea of the pulp and cape hero protecting the innocent and inspiring humanity to be better was even a thing. so...what's old is old again? If anything, the idea of someone using their powers to do the right thing either because that's how they were raised or because they want to protect people from tragedy seems like the actual subversion of expectations at this point.

At this point, I can't help but wonder. Do people enjoy these deconstructions because it's "New and subversive" or do people just enjoy seeing a...

yeah sorry, it was too obvious not to include. Anyway, what do you think? Am I just missing something? Am I just an idiot who doesn't know what a good story is?
 
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Bear Ribs

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So I'm watching scenes and reviews from both "The Boys" and "Invincible" and people are praising how the shows and comics are shocking and deconstructs (and in Invincible's case reconstruct) typical superhero tropes. I don't know if this is a hot take or not, but I don't see how. The Watchmen was released in 1987 nearly 40 years ago, and commentary on "What if Superheroes but darker and edgier and mean" has existed throughout since then. Heck "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?" AKA "Superman Vs. The Elite" was a commentary about this dark and edgy take on cape myths all the way back in 2001. Between Sentry, New 52, Homelander, Omni-Man, Brightburn there seem to be more "deconstructed" supermen characters than played straight "Supermen" so much so to where these "hot new takes have their own tropes."

-Character is a pretty boy who is a thinly veiled Sociopath or Psychopath. Check
-Character uses his superhero persona to hide an ulterior motive. Check
-Character secretly (and sometimes not so secretly) despises those he's trying to save. Check
-Character is a not-so-subtle antichrist figure or a herald of humanity's extinction. Check

- Bonus points: a not-so-subtle metaphor about how "hur capitalism bad." Double Check

This stuff has been going on for decades now and is lasting as long if not longer than the ages and cliches they are deconstructing. At what point do things stop becoming Subversions of tropes and cliches, and start becoming the tropes and cliches? One thing, in particular, I find funny is that it's never the dark and edgy soap opera heroes that get deconstructed. Batman's stayed mostly the same for the better part of his run (save for some brief stints which are mostly memes now) every time Spider-man shakes things up and gives Peter a break, Marvel tries to reboot him as quickly as possible to where he's back to square one. and don't you dare touch the likes of the Punisher or Daredevil.

Heck If you really think about it, the flawed being with godlike power who is as much responsible for being chaos to the world as he is bringing order dates all the way back to ancient times thousands of years before the idea of the pulp and cape hero protecting the innocent and inspiring humanity to be better was even a thing. so...what's old is old again? If anything the idea of someone using their powers to do the right thing either because that's how they were raised or they want to protect people from tragedy seems like the actual subversion of expectations at this point.

At this point I can't help but wonder. Do people enjoy these deconstructions because it's "New and subversive" or do people just enjoy seeing a...

yeah sorry, it was too obvious not to include. Anyway, what do you think? Am I just missing something? Am I just an idiot who doesn't know what a good story is?
One thing to keep in mind about the comic deconstruction/reconstruction cycle is that it's basically happening repeatedly because of different media. Comics, on paper, went through it 40 years ago but back then comics movies were regarded as B-grade failures waiting to happen. Even the super-high-budget Donner Superman movies only managed to squeeze out one good one and then promptly went stupid. Comic-based cartoons were fairly meh as well, there was a Spiderman/Iceman/Firestar sketch that went up on PBS but overall not a lot going on in the world of cartoons either. Comics were on paper.

So to the public, the paper comic deconstruction cycle didn't really get into their view at all. It didn't help that for a long time, the Comics Code Authority prevented anybody from making any kind of deconstructive stuff because anything like that was strictly forbidden.

Then in the 90s-early 2000s comic-based animated shows became big, the DCAU was huge and became sprawling with dozens of shows, all interconnected and eventually culminating in Justice League Unlimited. So too, deconstructions like What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way? came about, but again cartoons were still "kid's stuff" and weren't pushed into the public eye so much, so for a lot of people the deconstruction was missed. Note that the original Invincible comic started almost 20 years ago in 2003 partly as a deconstruction of the DCAU, it's been a long time getting to this current new show.

Now the MCU has made comic movies huge, along with many TV spinoffs, so we're seeing a third round of deconstruction and it's more in public view because they've made Superheroes more adult fair, and pushed it more into the public eye. That's why comic deconstruction appears to have been going on for decades, comics themselves have been migrating to new media and thus receiving new deconstructions over and over.
 

Agent23

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deconstruction/reconstruction are just hypster terms for the lifecycle of fads and ideas.

Razorfist kinda-sorta made a video about Capeshit and how it is just the latest in a trend, how it gets darker and edgier, how it gets parodied.
Happened with IIRC film noir and westerns, too.
 

Val the Moofia Boss

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Deconstruction is indicative that 1. creators have lost their creativity, and 2. have developed a contempt for their audiences. Unfortunately we live in the age of franchises, which means that stuff that has worn out its welcome decades ago is still haunting us to this day, because corporations bet on pre-established brand name recognition over new original stuff.
 

Captain X

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Personally I also see it as part of the leftist need to basically smear everything. All part of the same mentality that has them hating everything about this country and Western culture in general. Naturally with something like Superman who is a symbol of the thing they hate, they feel the need to destroy it.
 

Terthna

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Deconstruction is indicative that 1. creators have lost their creativity, and 2. have developed a contempt for their audiences. Unfortunately we live in the age of franchises, which means that stuff that has worn out its welcome decades ago is still haunting us to this day, because corporations bet on pre-established brand name recognition over new original stuff.
We also live in an age where many creators start out with zero creativity, and a contempt for their own audience; irrespective of whatever medium they work in, or IPs they end up working on.
 
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We also live in an age where many creators start out with zero creativity, and a contempt for their own audience; irrespective of whatever medium they work in, or IPs they end up working on.
I think what baffles me is that they rejected the fans that enjoyed their work and tried appealing to the people to the people who rant on Twitter and spend hours of their lives watching Tick Tok Youtube drama and reality tv shows. Just...why? Now nobody cares and the entertainment industry on all fronts is dying. (Seeing comics and animation dying hurts for me personally)
 

Robovski

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I think what baffles me is that they rejected the fans that enjoyed their work and tried appealing to the people to the people who rant on Twitter and spend hours of their lives watching Tick Tok Youtube drama and reality tv shows. Just...why? Now nobody cares and the entertainment industry on all fronts is dying. (Seeing comics and animation dying hurts for me personally)

Yep, it sucks. Best I can advise is do not partake of anything that is "not for you" and support anything you still like.
 

ATP

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Everything was arleady told,and all possible kinds of art was invented.So,now we could use old ways,or deconstruct.
 

Agent23

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Everything was arleady told,and all possible kinds of art was invented.So,now we could use old ways,or deconstruct.
Google Dadaism in Germany, IMHO some forms of "deconstruction" are just harbingers of a collapse.

A lot of frankly bullshit, drug-inspired art gets churned out when a country and a civilization is suffering a downturn.

Like American literature in the 1960s and 1970s, in particularly where Veetnam-related stuff was concerned, and my own country's literature from between the world wars.
And of course, Germany's.

What they end up deconstructing is the basic Hero's journey, which is pretty much a pivotal piece of fiction in every single culture.
The various other national and religious myths, too.
The ones society is at least partially built on, much like extremist leftist historic revisionism.
I think it is less an attempt to consciously destroy society than an outright show of disdain for the "Old Ways".

It is fun when it backfires, irrespective of it being intentional or unintentional, like the movie High Noon, which was a favorite of Ike because in his view it showed a morally righteous, individualist American fighting for what is good and moral despite the lack of support.
 
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