Wizards of the Coast Sends Pinkertons to YouTuber Over Products Copyright Infringement

[Husky_Khan]

Some Magic The Gathering Youtuber purchased some MTG material from a third party buyer and then featured it on his YouTube channel. It turned out it was product that had yet to be released so WOTC send Pinkerton Operatives to his home to confiscate the material.

 

[Captain X]

That guy should've told them to fuck off and not given them a thing. They had no legal authority to do anything.

 

[Terthna]

That guy should've told them to fuck off and not given them a thing. They had no legal authority to do anything.

And get his kneecaps busted? We're talking about Pinkerton here; that's what they do. It's why it's illegal for the United States government to hire them.

 

[Husky_Khan]

That guy should've told them to fuck off and not given them a thing. They had no legal authority to do anything.

No he should've challenged them to a game of Magic: The Gathering for possession of the items in question and livestreamed it.

 

[Aldarion]

Hope this wasn't posted before. Basically, a game company sent Pinkertons (those guys from Lucky Luke) after a Youtuber who was mistakenly sent a not-yet-released game set:

 

[Typhonis]

Hope this wasn't posted before. Basically, a game company sent Pinkertons (those guys from Lucky Luke) after a Youtuber who was mistakenly sent a not-yet-released game set:

It was. The video is 2 months old.

 

[Terthna]

It was. The video is 2 months old.

Wizards never did apologize for it though; they just kept making excuses for themselves until they realized nobody was buying it aside from their most fanatical white knights, and now try to pretend it never happened.

 

[mrttao]

Wizards never did apologize for it though; they just kept making excuses for themselves until they realized nobody was buying it aside from their most fanatical white knights, and now try to pretend it never happened.

I am still shocked they got away with it.
How the fuck does not one get arrested when a PMC is hired by a USA company to invade a private citizen's home in USA and steal his property?

Even their excuse of "it is ours because we sent you the wrong thing" doesn't fly because it means they engaged in "Self help", which is illegal.
You must get the court and police to retrieve your property for you, not get it yourself / hire someone to get it.

 

[Abhorsen]

I am still shocked they got away with it.
How the fuck does not one get arrested when a PMC is hired by a USA company to invade a private citizen's home in USA and steal his property?

Even their excuse of "it is ours because we sent you the wrong thing" doesn't fly because it means they engaged in "Self help", which is illegal.
You must get the court and police to retrieve your property for you, not get it yourself / hire someone to get it.

Self help isn't actually illegal, first. Say your car was stolen, then later the next day you see it parked in public. The VIN checks out, you know it's yours. You are legally allowed to hotwire that car and drive home with it. This applies to non cars too, just harder to prove ownership.

But in this case, that's not what happened. Basically, they had people that looked official come to the door,and like many Americans who don't know their rights, he surrendered the cards to them, likely under threat of lawsuit. Cops do similar things all the time to avoid needing a warrant.

It's bullshit, but legal bullshit. The law has a difficult time helping people who don't know their rights, so I don't even know that a better law could fix this, all the guy had to do was remain silent and tell them to come back with cops, and the cops to get a warrant (which they wouldn't be able to get).

 

[mrttao]

Self help isn't actually illegal, first. Say your car was stolen, then later the next day you see it parked in public. The VIN checks out, you know it's yours. You are legally allowed to hotwire that car and drive home with it. This applies to non cars too, just harder to prove ownership.

1. Finding your property abandoned on the side of the road is not the same as breaking into someone's house to take your property back.

2. well, it was inaccurate of me to say it is illegal as it is sometimes ok, it really depends on the details. but usually it isn't allowed.

 

[Abhorsen]

1. Finding your property abandoned on the side of the road is not the same as breaking into someone's house to take your property back.

2. well, it was inaccurate of me to say it is illegal as it is sometimes ok, it really depends on the details. but usually it isn't allowed.

Doesn't even have to be on the side of the road. Anywhere you have legal access. If it's on a car dealership lot, you can do it. You see your custom guitar in a pawn shop? You can walk out of the store with it.

Note, this probably isn't the best way to handle this, as they will think you are stealing, but you are completely legally fine doing this.

The thing is, you can't break any other laws in the process (you aren't breaking theft laws, because they are usually stated something like "depriving the owner of their property", since they don't legally own it, you are fine. The issue with breaking into the person's house is it's illegal to break into someone's house. But you can't be charged with burglary (as you didn't legally steal anything, as what you took is your property), just breaking and entering.

But this wasn't a self help case anyway. This was a person didn't know his rights and surrendered property. Legally, there's no saving someone who doesn't know what their legal rights are.

 

[Wargamer08]

Doesn't even have to be on the side of the road. Anywhere you have legal access. If it's on a car dealership lot, you can do it. You see your custom guitar in a pawn shop? You can walk out of the store with it.

Note, this probably isn't the best way to handle this, as they will think you are stealing, but you are completely legally fine doing this.

The thing is, you can't break any other laws in the process (you aren't breaking theft laws, because they are usually stated something like "depriving the owner of their property", since they don't legally own it, you are fine. The issue with breaking into the person's house is it's illegal to break into someone's house. But you can't be charged with burglary (as you didn't legally steal anything, as what you took is your property), just breaking and entering.

But this wasn't a self help case anyway. This was a person didn't know his rights and surrendered property. Legally, there's no saving someone who doesn't know what their legal rights are.

That's nonsense, otherwise all the financial fraud and theft scams wouldn't be crimes. Nothing happened because the person robbed is a massive MtG fanboy and won't press for charges or legal action. Here's hoping MtG realizes how bad this could have been and compensates him accordingly.

 

[Abhorsen]

That's nonsense, otherwise all the financial fraud and theft scams wouldn't be crimes. Nothing happened because the person robbed is a massive MtG fanboy and won't press for charges or legal action. Here's hoping MtG realizes how bad this could have been and compensates him accordingly.

No. Scam/fraud is when X is promised but not delivered. The dude was (my best guess, no idea as to what actually happened) promised he wouldn't be sued (for something wrong that won't hold up like copyright, receiving stolen property, etc) if he handed over the cards. Then WOTC didn't sue him. Totally legal, it's impossible to stop someone from taking a stupid deal if the winning side sticks to the deal.

The lawyers who train Pinkertons know what they are doing. It's shady as hell, but just this side of legal.

 

[mrttao]

That's nonsense, otherwise all the financial fraud and theft scams wouldn't be crimes. Nothing happened because the person robbed is a massive MtG fanboy and won't press for charges or legal action. Here's hoping MtG realizes how bad this could have been and compensates him accordingly.

It was not just that. the pinkerton's indimiated him when they broke into his home.
Not only with the threats of violence.

But they also had a guy who spent the entire time talking to him about fake legalese about how he is probably going to jail for trumped up charges and having him beg them to spare him that prison time while they burglarized his home.

 

[Wargamer08]

No. Scam/fraud is when X is promised but not delivered. The dude was (my best guess, no idea as to what actually happened) promised he wouldn't be sued (for something wrong that won't hold up like copyright, receiving stolen property, etc) if he handed over the cards. Then WOTC didn't sue him. Totally legal, it's impossible to stop someone from taking a stupid deal if the winning side sticks to the deal.

The lawyers who train Pinkertons know what they are doing. It's shady as hell, but just this side of legal.

Armed men showing up at your home and spouting quasilegal gobbledygook while they demand you turn over your property to them is not legal. Just like contracts that have illegal terms are illegal, even if you sign them. Consent does not make something legal. See all the elderly fraud or other scams. Willingly surrendering property under a false pretext is pretty much the definition of fraud. Allowances are cut out in the laws for agents of the courts to do so, like police. But none of those apply to hired goons. Wizards of the Coast hired men to rob and intimidate a man because they mistakingly sold him something they did not want sold. Putting the blame on the victim because he didn't handle armed and falsely legal intimidation better is monstrous.

Strong-arm robbery is legal if they agree to it see, I get their property they get to avoid a physical and legal beating. It's fair is what you are essentially saying.

 

[Abhorsen]

Strong-arm robbery is legal if they agree to it see, I get their property they get to avoid a physical and legal beating. It's fair is what you are essentially saying.

Only you don't know that they physically threatened him, I don't think. Unless you gotta source?

Because I doubt they did except maybe by appearing. My bet is that it was intimidation through the legal system (do X or get sued), which is scummy but legal. And very, very hard to deal with legally once it happens. Same story with the guy CNN threatened for the Trump WWE meme. Since it was a legal system threat, no one can do anything if the person doesn't use the legal system.

 

[Wargamer08]

Only you don't know that they physically threatened him, I don't think. Unless you gotta source?

Because I doubt they did except maybe by appearing. My bet is that it was intimidation through the legal system (do X or get sued), which is scummy but legal. And very, very hard to deal with legally once it happens. Same story with the guy CNN threatened for the Trump WWE meme. Since it was a legal system threat, no one can do anything if the person doesn't use the legal system.

Armed agents showed up at his home. Allegedly these agents, in person, threatened jail time, huge fines and other repercussions if he didn’t relinquish the “stolen product” to the point of terrorizing his wife. Does that sound like a legal or legitimate action or strong arm robbery?

 

[Abhorsen]

Armed agents showed up at his home. Allegedly these agents, in person, threatened jail time, huge fines and other repercussions if he didn’t relinquish the “stolen product” to the point of terrorizing his wife. Does that sound like a legal or legitimate action or strong arm robbery?

Those are scummy and completely legal tactics. It's not 'legitimate' in the moral sense. It's legal though. It sounds completely legal. The cops do the same exact thing all the time, and it's similarly scummy when they do it to the innocent, but it's still legal.

Ultimately, the only solution is to simply know your rights and contact a lawyer.

In general, we want things to be able to be solved via legal system threats: that's what settlements are: agreements not to be sued (or sometimes even to dismiss charges) as long as the person with a claim gets paid. The ability to do a settlement massively lessens the load on the legal system and provides faster and definite financial relief to the people claiming harm. When they are actually harmed, this is a positive good.

Honestly, my issue is how they got the address. That the person may have an actual legal claim about, depending on what the TOS say.

Understand, I'm not saying their actions are good, or neutral. I think what they did was morally wrong. I just don't see a way to ban their action without tossing important features of how the legal system works.


Though, looking at it more, the accusation of arrest (not lawsuit) might actually qualify as intimidation, depending on state. Any idea what state he was in?

 

[Wargamer08]

Those are scummy and completely legal tactics. It's not 'legitimate' in the moral sense. It's legal though. It sounds completely legal. The cops do the same exact thing all the time, and it's similarly scummy when they do it to the innocent, but it's still legal.

Ultimately, the only solution is to simply know your rights and contact a lawyer.

In general, we want things to be able to be solved via legal system threats: that's what settlements are: agreements not to be sued (or sometimes even to dismiss charges) as long as the person with a claim gets paid. The ability to do a settlement massively lessens the load on the legal system and provides faster and definite financial relief to the people claiming harm. When they are actually harmed, this is a positive good.

Honestly, my issue is how they got the address. That the person may have an actual legal claim about, depending on what the TOS say.

Understand, I'm not saying their actions are good, or neutral. I think what they did was morally wrong. I just don't see a way to ban their action without tossing important features of how the legal system works.


Though, looking at it more, the accusation of arrest (not lawsuit) might actually qualify as intimidation, depending on state. Any idea what state he was in?

Lets start with companies don't get to hire goons to steal from private citizens as a first resort. It's ridiculous enough when police do it.

 

[Abhorsen]

Lets start with companies don't get to hire goons to steal from private citizens as a first resort. It's ridiculous enough when police do it.

Yeah, again, have fun writing a law that bans what happened here without fucking up the American legal system even more. This wasn't legally theft.

The childish "I'll make a law" ignores how this problem actually happened. The Pinkertons knew what the law was, and were still able to intimidate by preying on ignorance and going right up to the line of legality.

The solution is simple: don't be ignorant. There's no amount of law that can cure dumb.