Israel ðŸ‡®ðŸ‡± State of Israel Thread

King Arts

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Then the people you are talking about are extinct, because the people living there now are Arabs. They talk like Arabs, live like Arabs and think like Arabs, many even call themselves Arabs, go argue with them that they are stupid and they shouldn't be Arabs.
This is silly. Their genetics still aren't pure arab though. Will you say the French aren't descended from the Gauls because they lost the language? Italians Romans? Are the Egyptians not related to the Ancient Egyptians because they don't worship Ra or Isis but instead Allah? Are the Greeks not related to the Ancient Greeks because they worship Christ instead of Zeus?
 
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Marduk

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This is silly. Their genetics still aren't pure arab though. Will you say the French aren't descended from the Gauls because they lost the language? Italians Romans? Are the Egyptians not related to the Ancient Egyptians because they don't worship Ra or Isis but instead Allah? Are the Greeks not related to the Ancient Greeks because they worship Christ instead of Zeus?
In all these cases though they still have direct cultural and historical relationship to their past and are their own nations based on that.
Palestinians cannot say that. They didn't even bother pretending at being a nation until it because useful in political-military sense few decades ago, they were fine being merely Arabs until then, fighting wars alongside other Arabs. Very few populations have even remotely "pure genetics" these days, socio-cultural identification is far more impactful for the rest. Jewish Israelis are genetically related to Arabs too, shocker, i know, but culturally and socially they are far more distant from Arabs than Palestinians are. To further complicate it Jews, Arabs and Palestinians are all genetically related to each other to some considerable degree.
Do Americans get to go settle and rule West Africa as long as they have some genetic ancestry from there? Of course they have nothing in common with Ghanians, Angolans or Gambians except that part of genetic ancestry though.
 

ATP

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Then the people you are talking about are extinct, because the people living there now are Arabs. They talk like Arabs, live like Arabs and think like Arabs, many even call themselves Arabs, go argue with them that they are stupid and they shouldn't be Arabs. But chances are they will tell you to sod off and they don't care about some ancient peoples with their weird languages and pagan gods only known to historians.
Nope,they are ancient people who take arab cukture and religion.Not the same thing.
It is like difference between Sefardi jews,who really are descendents of ancient jews,and eastern Europe jews,who are chazar people which take jewish language and religion.
 

Marduk

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Nope,they are ancient people who take arab cukture and religion.
Then they are no longer "ancient people", they are assimilated Arabs, as they took their politics, religion, culture, language, identity, even interbred with them.
Much like the descendants of Samnites are simply Italians, not Romans nor some "ancient people".
You may aswell try separate the descendants of Vistulans out from the Polish nation.
Not the same thing.
It is like difference between Sefardi jews,who really are descendents of ancient jews,and eastern Europe jews,who are chazar people which take jewish language and religion.
All interbred with each other at some point or another. As i said, especially in that region, genetically pure groups are very rare and neither of those is even close to that.
 

ATP

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Then they are no longer "ancient people", they are assimilated Arabs, as they took their politics, religion, culture, language, identity, even interbred with them.
Much like the descendants of Samnites are simply Italians, not Romans nor some "ancient people".
You may aswell try separate the descendants of Vistulans out from the Polish nation.

All interbred with each other at some point or another. As i said, especially in that region, genetically pure groups are very rare and neither of those is even close to that.
No,they are ancient people who take arab culture.Just like eastern jews are chazars who take jewish culture.
Not the same thing like arab from Saudi arabia or sefardim jews.

And ,when all people there get some arab blood,both palestinian and jews there are not arabs.
 

Marduk

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No,they are ancient people who take arab culture.Just like eastern jews are chazars who take jewish culture.
Then they are Arabs. They have no culture of their own and they are interbred with Arabs, the "ancient people" don't exist any more than Vistulans, Picts or Hittites.
Not the same thing like arab from Saudi arabia or sefardim jews.

And ,when all people there get some arab blood,both palestinian and jews there are not arabs.
What's the difference between Arabs and Palestinians then, and why do people even talk of Palestinians just since 1970's? Did they have a collective amnesia event so that they forgot that they are "ancient people who just happened to act completely assimilated to Arab society and culture as a joke" for some centuries?
 

ATP

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Then they are Arabs. They have no culture of their own and they are interbred with Arabs, the "ancient people" don't exist any more than Vistulans, Picts or Hittites.

What's the difference between Arabs and Palestinians then, and why do people even talk of Palestinians just since 1970's? Did they have a collective amnesia event so that they forgot that they are "ancient people who just happened to act completely assimilated to Arab society and culture as a joke" for some centuries?
The same like between eastern european jews and sefardim - culture is still slighty different,and real arabs are not people who take arab culture.
 

Marduk

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The same like between eastern european jews and sefardim - culture is still slighty different,and real arabs are not people who take arab culture.
Well then you go explain to all the fake Arabs and real Arabs which of them should stop being fake and associating with Arabs.
 

King Arts

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Well then you go explain to all the fake Arabs and real Arabs which of them should stop being fake and associating with Arabs.
Aren’t you trying to have your cake and eat it too? You support the west destabilize Arab nations and preventing pan Arabism from forming an Arab super state but when a sub group wants a nation but it would inconvenience western neocon interests you backpedal.
 
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Marduk

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Aren’t you trying to have your cake and eat it too? You support the west destabilize Arab nations
LOL. I think Arab nations are more than capable of destabilizing themselves in the first place.
and preventing pan Arabism from forming an Arab super state but when a sub group wants a nation but it would inconvenience western neocon interests you backpedal.
Would an Arab superstate be good for the West?
A superstate is not necessary for anyone's stability either. Do Austria and Germany need to be united to be stable?

The subgroup in question was originally supposed to move to another Arab state (Jordan), and do a lot of other things differently too.
Despite all that, Israel was, and probably still is open to letting them have own state on pragmatic grounds, regardless of who they are... but the devil is in the details, the other side is not interested in merely achieving such a "minimum objective".
Which is another funny thing - while such "minimum deal" would work well enough for Palestinians as a self-interested group, in context of Palestinian independence being merely a bad faith tactical demand in greater conflict with Arabs it's completely pointless, as compromises that make the Arab patrons look weak and limit future avenues of waging war on Israel through the proxy of "Palestinian cause" are counterproductive to their goals.
 

ATP

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Well then you go explain to all the fake Arabs and real Arabs which of them should stop being fake and associating with Arabs.
No need.Palestinians arleady consider themselves as nation.All thanks to fake Izrael.
But you could explain eastern europe jews,that they are chazars ! They still consider themselves as jews.
 

Marduk

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No need.Palestinians arleady consider themselves as nation.All thanks to fake Izrael.
So why do they care about Arab's pet peeves then? I've even posted quotes of PLO leaders explaining how much they "consider themselves a nation" and why.
But you could explain eastern europe jews,that they are chazars ! They still consider themselves as jews.
That's a pre internet conspiracy theory, stop embarrassing yourself.
Let Muscovites keep their stupid theories for themselves.
 

ATP

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So why do they care about Arab's pet peeves then? I've even posted quotes of PLO leaders explaining how much they "consider themselves a nation" and why.

That's a pre internet conspiracy theory, stop embarrassing yourself.
Let Muscovites keep their stupid theories for themselves.
1.Some of them - maybe..For others,they are nation now.Just like ukrainians from Kiev become ukrainians thanks to Moscov invasion.In 2014 they woud welcome putin,if he come there.

2.Wiki as source? pleas,spare me.it is known for at least 19th century,and confirmed by DNA tests,when they compared DNA ancient jews to askenazi.
Do you knew who is descendents of jews ? sefardim and palestinians.
Well,palestinians were pagans who become jews,but still.
 

Marduk

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1.Some of them - maybe..For others,they are nation now.Just like ukrainians from Kiev become ukrainians thanks to Moscov invasion.In 2014 they woud welcome putin,if he come there.
Obviously they didn't, just some sovoks in the east.
Ukrainians have their own language, customs, history.
Palestinians? They have Arab language, customs, history.
2.Wiki as source? pleas,spare me.it is known for at least 19th century,and confirmed by DNA tests,when they compared DNA ancient jews to askenazi.
Yes, from 19th century political pieces, see the problem?
Better wiki than no source.
They literally link to DNA tests saying otherwise. I don't know what DNA tests you saw, can you link to them?
Do you knew who is descendents of jews ? sefardim and palestinians.
Well,palestinians were pagans who become jews,but still.
Again, pure fiction.
 

King Arts

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Obviously they didn't, just some sovoks in the east.
Ukrainians have their own language, customs, history.
Palestinians? They have Arab language, customs, history.
In what way was Ukrainian customs and history separate from Russian? Ukraine was not a nation till recently.
 
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Marduk

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In what way was Ukrainian customs and history separate from Russian? Ukraine was not a nation till recently.
Not for lack of trying though.
Ukraine was separate from Russia since about 15th century, with forming an identity as a nation around late 18th century. Russia of course suppressed such nationalist movements whenever it could.
As for customs, well, for one they have a separate language, and somewhat different national culture (starting with not even being in top 10 of countries with highest rates of alcoholism, very un-Russian of them :D).
 

ATP

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Obviously they didn't, just some sovoks in the east.
Ukrainians have their own language, customs, history.
Palestinians? They have Arab language, customs, history.

Yes, from 19th century political pieces, see the problem?
Better wiki than no source.
They literally link to DNA tests saying otherwise. I don't know what DNA tests you saw, can you link to them?

Again, pure fiction.
1.Ukrainian as nation was made by A-H after 1848,but in 1918 they were till minority among ukrainian speaking locals.That is why nobody defended Kiev when Poland take it for them,and all able poish male go to army when soviet were under Warsaw.
That is why Poland was state after 1920,and Ukraine not.
/Jewish males were doing gates for coming soviets./

2.I think,that Feliks koneczny wrote about that,but i must confirm it.

3.So,why DNA show that the same population lived there from bronze age to 1948?
 

Marduk

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1.Ukrainian as nation was made by A-H after 1848,but in 1918 they were till minority among ukrainian speaking locals.That is why nobody defended Kiev when Poland take it for them,and all able poish male go to army when soviet were under Warsaw.
That is why Poland was state after 1920,and Ukraine not.
/Jewish males were doing gates for coming soviets./

2.I think,that Feliks koneczny wrote about that,but i must confirm it.
Whatever, it was a pretty common time for national identities to arise in Europe, and blaming it on one or another power is beside the point.
3.So,why DNA show that the same population lived there from bronze age to 1948?
It doesn't, you are repeating some propagandist who can't even read DNA studies without seeing the study itself?
 

ATP

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Whatever, it was a pretty common time for national identities to arise in Europe, and blaming it on one or another power is beside the point.

It doesn't, you are repeating some propagandist who can't even read DNA studies without seeing the study itself?
Sorry for being unclear.Ukrainians did notching in 1848,becouse they do not existed yet,but A-H authorities decide to made them as nation to counter poles in their country,and tsar,who could use all ukrainian speaking peasants against them.
 

Marduk

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Sorry for being unclear.Ukrainians did notching in 1848,becouse they do not existed yet,but A-H authorities decide to made them as nation to counter poles in their country,and tsar,who could use all ukrainian speaking peasants against them.
However, in the Russian Empire expressions of Ukrainian culture and especially language were repeatedly persecuted for fear that a self-aware Ukrainian nation would threaten the unity of the empire. In 1804 Ukrainian as a subject and language of instruction was banned from schools.[15] In 1811 by the Order of the Russian government, the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy was closed. The academy had been open since 1632 and was the first university in Eastern Europe.[42]
If they didn't exist, who spoke Ukrainian then, and why did Russians ban teaching it?
Time traveling Austrians?
Don't tell me they had shotguns and sunglasses.

Yet Palestinian Arabs and all the nearby Arab countries still don't even try to have their separate languages, they all speak Arabic.
 

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