Hamas Launches Offensive Against Southern Israel

Cherico said:
because the Palastinians are our enemies and if you think otherwise your delusional.
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I understand that you and they are enemies. I don’t want to stand in Israel’s way in the fight. What I have a problem with is traitorous people trying to drag western nations that are not Jewish or Muslim into a fight and support one side or the other that does not concern them. This is a fight between Muslims and Jews for which of them can control the holy land. It does not concern anyone but Jews and Muslims.
 
Bacle said:
And you are so caught up in trying to be pedantic about the subject that you miss the bigger picture. The Felony Murder Rule is just a useful shorthand for the situation, but you are so up your own ass with you pedantic arguments you don't even get that and go off about 'legal vs moral' bullshit.
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See, I'm not wrong about it, because you follow up with this:
Bacle said:
All the blood in Gaza is on Hamas, no amount of pedantic handwringing about 'guilt vs responsibility' will change that.
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Which is simply wrong.

You are trying to mix up two arguments, "Hamas started it" and "Hamas uses human shields". The second is a good argument, but it fails when they aren't human shields but just bystanders. For example, if a Hamas member is walking down the street, and gets hit along with other people who just happened to be there, not forced there by Hamas.

For these situations, you cannot use the human shield argument. The entire moral argument for the human shield argument is based on the intentionality of the bad person to use another to shield themselves. If it's simply just incidental, then no, that fails. Or you'd be blaming Ukraine for having a soldier walking around in Kiev when it gets bombed by Russia. Obviously, that's bullshit.

So let's get to the "Hamas started it" argument. Just because Hamas started it doesn't remove Israel's moral responsibility. It's simply a stupid fucking argument. If Israel nukes the entire Gaza Strip, that's monstrous, and they can't go "But Hamas Started it, so it's their fault". It doesn't apply in any number of different conflicts either. The US is morally responsible for the innocents that die as collateral when they drone a terrorist. The US is responsible for the dead of Hiroshima. So is Israel for the Palestinian dead.

Also, Israel takes credit for the dead. When they announce that they killed a high up terrorist, what do they say? They say "We killed so and so, a Hamas member who did X". If they want to take credit for killing the Hamas member, then they are taking credit for the action that killed the Hamas member. Thus they are taking credit for the action that killed the people around the Hamas member. The only change would be if the Hamas member put those people there, but as I said before, we are talking about the cases where the human shield argument doesn't apply. They are just incidentally there. So Israel is already taking responsibility for those deaths.

So yeah, as it turns out, you absolutely are applying loose rules to justify a position where whatever happens, you can sleep easy. But this is the bliss of purposeful ignorance. You are denying knowledge of good and evil, because you know you'd have to do some soul searching, and that doesn't sound fun. Grow up, and begin to hold more than one thought in your head at once.
 
The thing you don't seem to account for is that Hamas is a death cult, so you have a substantially large portion of the population being perfectly happy to be martyred by the IDF, because it serves their cause by making Israel look bad. And if the Israelis are reluctant to attack Hamas because of their presence, they are also serving their cause. And for the portion of the population who aren't suicidal and actually have been trying to evacuate, Hamas has been shooting these people in the streets as traitors to dissuade anyone else who might be thinking of running. So no matter how you look at it and want to wring your hands over it, Hamas is ultimately responsible for all the civilian casualties incurred there.
 
King Arts said:
I understand that you and they are enemies. I don’t want to stand in Israel’s way in the fight. What I have a problem with is traitorous people trying to drag western nations that are not Jewish or Muslim into a fight and support one side or the other that does not concern them. This is a fight between Muslims and Jews for which of them can control the holy land. It does not concern anyone but Jews and Muslims.
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Indeed.I could support some Christian country making Crusade to take Holy land,but jews or palestinians? why? if we do not want take Jeruslem,then we have no reason to care who hold it.
 
Abhorsen said:
See, I'm not wrong about it, because you follow up with this:

Which is simply wrong.

You are trying to mix up two arguments, "Hamas started it" and "Hamas uses human shields". The second is a good argument, but it fails when they aren't human shields but just bystanders. For example, if a Hamas member is walking down the street, and gets hit along with other people who just happened to be there, not forced there by Hamas.

For these situations, you cannot use the human shield argument. The entire moral argument for the human shield argument is based on the intentionality of the bad person to use another to shield themselves. If it's simply just incidental, then no, that fails. Or you'd be blaming Ukraine for having a soldier walking around in Kiev when it gets bombed by Russia. Obviously, that's bullshit.

So let's get to the "Hamas started it" argument. Just because Hamas started it doesn't remove Israel's moral responsibility. It's simply a stupid fucking argument. If Israel nukes the entire Gaza Strip, that's monstrous, and they can't go "But Hamas Started it, so it's their fault". It doesn't apply in any number of different conflicts either. The US is morally responsible for the innocents that die as collateral when they drone a terrorist. The US is responsible for the dead of Hiroshima. So is Israel for the Palestinian dead.

Also, Israel takes credit for the dead. When they announce that they killed a high up terrorist, what do they say? They say "We killed so and so, a Hamas member who did X". If they want to take credit for killing the Hamas member, then they are taking credit for the action that killed the Hamas member. Thus they are taking credit for the action that killed the people around the Hamas member. The only change would be if the Hamas member put those people there, but as I said before, we are talking about the cases where the human shield argument doesn't apply. They are just incidentally there. So Israel is already taking responsibility for those deaths.

So yeah, as it turns out, you absolutely are applying loose rules to justify a position where whatever happens, you can sleep easy. But this is the bliss of purposeful ignorance. You are denying knowledge of good and evil, because you know you'd have to do some soul searching, and that doesn't sound fun. Grow up, and begin to hold more than one thought in your head at once.
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You seem to forget Hamas is a death cult and Gaza a larger Jonestown.

The entirety of the Gaza Strip is effectively a giant human shield and death cult camp all in one for Hamas.

The only entities in Gaza that aren't Hamas are Islamic Jihad and the UN pasties who run the Hamas schools.

Also, the only reason I would not advocate nukes on Gaza is because thermobarics exist and don't have the potential to drop fallout on Israel.

If Israel wanted to give up on rescuing hostages (many are already likely dead anyway) and just grid-square level Gaza block by block I wouldn't bat an eye or consider them monsters.
 
King Arts said:
That’s because there are few people who actually have Christian’s as their in group they pick race or whatever instead.
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Exactly. Only Muslims among major worldwide religions have religion based in-group. Most people have tribal, or in civilized world, national one.
King Arts said:
we’ve had people on this very site atheists even cheerleading the idea of Jews ethnically cleansing the Palestinians.
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They have their own beef with the Muslim's ingroup, its ideology and behavior. On the other hand, what the hell do Muslims in Dagestan, Pakistan, London or Indonesia have to do with Israel?
King Arts said:
I understand that you and they are enemies. I don’t want to stand in Israel’s way in the fight. What I have a problem with is traitorous people trying to drag western nations that are not Jewish or Muslim into a fight and support one side or the other that does not concern them. This is a fight between Muslims and Jews for which of them can control the holy land. It does not concern anyone but Jews and Muslims.
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Have you forgotten what Muslims do in France, UK, Germany? Fight that doesn't concern them my ass. Muslims are our concern, whether Jews are involved or not, and opportunities exist to be seized, not ignored. If not for other reason, just because the other side is not in isolationist mood and never was.
 
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Marduk said:
Have you forgotten what Muslims do in France, UK, Germany? Fight that doesn't concern them my ass. Muslims are our concern, whether Jews are involved or not, and opportunities exist to be seized, not ignored. If not for other reason, just because the other side is not in isolationist mood and never was.
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No, he hasn't forgotten; he just approves of what the Muslims are doing:
King Arts said:
And that's why I sympathize with Islam and their Sharia law, and look down on cuck westerners.
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He's picked his side in this conflict, and it's not ours.
 
Terthna said:
No, he hasn't forgotten; he just approves of what the Muslims are doing:

He's picked his side in this conflict, and it's not ours.
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Way to quote things out of context. Also your side is not western civilization. I am against Islam and sharia for actual intelligent reasons.
You are against sharia because “muh gays muh women’s rights and muh democracy” we are not the same.
 
Bacle said:
You seem to forget Hamas is a death cult and Gaza a larger Jonestown.

The entirety of the Gaza Strip is effectively a giant human shield and death cult camp all in one for Hamas.

The only entities in Gaza that aren't Hamas are Islamic Jihad and the UN pasties who run the Hamas schools.

Also, the only reason I would not advocate nukes on Gaza is because thermobarics exist and don't have the potential to drop fallout on Israel.

If Israel wanted to give up on rescuing hostages (many are already likely dead anyway) and just grid-square level Gaza block by block I wouldn't bat an eye or consider them monsters.
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Then Hamas aren’t monsters for their attack on Israeli civilians.
 
King Arts said:
Then Hamas aren’t monsters for their attack on Israeli civilians.
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You seem to forget which side uses uniformed forces and does it's damnest to avoid civie casualties; hint, it's not Hamas.

But we already know you admire Sharia Law and what the jihadi's are doing to take over Europe from 'cucked westerners'.

The situation in Gaza never would have been accepted by any other nation in the same scenario, and would have been handled decades ago, back before Israel left and Hamas took over.

If Egypt would just take Gaza for themselves, all this could be solved, but Egypt reasonably doesn't want anymore Hamas agents loose in their country than they already are.

Thank the Pharaoh's for the Egyptian military's clear-eyed willingness to not fuck around with Hamas and co like the Muslim Brotherhood did after the Arab Spring.

Gaza is a giant death cult camp, nothing more or less in my eyes, and I'm not someone who would willingly waste/spend any allied/friendly lives to try to fix that on the ground, the way Israel has for decades.

But now that I know you admire Sharia Law, a lot more things make sense; wonder whether your masters are east or west side of the Arabian Gulf.
 
Marduk said:
Exactly. Only Muslims among major worldwide religions have religion based in-group. Most people have tribal, or in civilized world, national one.
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Did you not look at the post above with your fellow pole was saying he would support a crusade? Also at least religious kinship makes sense because you can support the side and say they are good people who believes the same as you. Do you believe the same as college leftists who support Hamas? They have just as much of a claim to your nation as you do possibly more. Probably not for Poland because Eastern Europe is still salvageable but Western Europe and America.

Marduk said:
They have their own beef with the Muslim's ingroup, its ideology and behavior. On the other hand, what the hell do Muslims in Dagestan, Pakistan, London or Indonesia have to do with Israel?
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I addressed this above, but no we don’t have a beef with Muslims in their own nations. If they come here it can be a problem but again Muslims are a symptom not the cause.

Marduk said:
Have you forgotten what Muslims do in France, UK, Germany? Fight that doesn't concern them my ass. Muslims are our concern, whether Jews are involved or not, and opportunities exist to be seized, not ignored. If not for other reason, just because the other side is not in isolationist mood and never was.
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Have you forgotten what Jews have done? All sides can play the blame game and point to what individuals in groups have done. Also your plan about opportunities to be seized doesn’t tell us anything. There are two groups not that we should ally with one of them if they are both Allie’s then we should call them down if they are both neutral we can safely ignore them. If they are both hostile then that is where many options open up from propping up the weaker side to keep the conflict going to getting involved to all sorts. Tell me why Israel should be our ally and Palestine our enemy?
 
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Bacle said:
You seem to forget Hamas is a death cult and Gaza a larger Jonestown.
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Literally irrelevant to what I'm talking about. Also, you seem to completely forget that I've called them a death cult.

Bacle said:
If Israel wanted to give up on rescuing hostages (many are already likely dead anyway) and just grid-square level Gaza block by block I wouldn't bat an eye or consider them monsters.
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And here you demonstrate that you are a monster. You say you would be totally fine with mass death of 2 million people, 40% of which are children. You lust for blood. The reason why I back Israel is because they don't do this. You are the same as those who cheer Hamas on. I should have realized this back when you simped for Japan to go to war with Russia that you just love war. I don't know why I bothered debating morality with someone with no morals, but I'm done talking to you about morals. I'll just quote this in the future, and tag you as the disgusting, morally empty person that you are.
 
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Terthna said:
No, he hasn't forgotten; he just approves of what the Muslims are doing:

He's picked his side in this conflict, and it's not ours.
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You are taking that post out of context.
He is a Christian who wants to sit back and let jews and muslims fight in Israel without getting involved.

As a Christian, he sympathizes with sharia laws, specifically the ones about women. Explicitly in response to the mass cuckolding of western men and western women insisting there is "nothing wrong" with what they do.

That is not the same as being on the side of muslims.
 
Husky_Khan said:
What Have The Jews done?
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George Soros.
www.theguardian.com

Europe’s top rabbi calls for solidarity with Muslims

Passover message says extremism gives religions ‘common cause’
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
General support of liberalism and pro open borders and pro migrants.

Note I don't hold all Jews responsible for these evil actions. There are plenty of good jews just trying to live their lives. I don't consider them responsible for the actions of bad jews. Just the same I don't blame all Muslims for Islamic terrorism. I was bringing the argument up for how double sided it is. Showing a memri video of some whackjob wanting to re reconquista spain doesen't mean anything. It won't ever be a problem as long as Spain does not allow in migrants. Allowing in migrants is the problem.

Free-Stater 101 said:
This.

Because Palestine will always be our enemy regardless of whatever spiel you are buying into.
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Why will they always be our enemy? When did they start being our enemy? Were they our enemy in the 1800's when the Ottoman Empire was still around? That area was solidly Muslim then. This sounds like some Bush tier apologism for forever wars.
 
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King Arts said:
George Soros.
www.theguardian.com

Europe’s top rabbi calls for solidarity with Muslims

Passover message says extremism gives religions ‘common cause’
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
General support of liberalism and pro open borders and pro migrants.

Note I don't hold all Jews responsible for these evil actions. There are plenty of good jews just trying to live their lives. I don't consider them responsible for the actions of bad jews. Just the same I don't blame all Muslims for Islamic terrorism. I was bringing the argument up for how double sided it is. Showing a memri video of some whackjob wanting to re reconquista spain doesen't mean anything. It won't ever be a problem as long as Spain does not allow in migrants. Allowing in migrants is the problem.


Why will they always be our enemy? When did they start being our enemy? Were they our enemy in the 1800's when the Ottoman Empire was still around? That area was solidly Muslim then. This sounds like some Bush tier apologism for forever wars.
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George Soros doesn't represent the Jewish population as a whole. Perhaps, their elites- but I would be hesitant even then. The man is a ghoul who sold out his own people to the Nazis. The guy is a monster, and as far as I know he isn't popular among Jews either and I don't think Israel likes him either. I suggest you re-adjust your position here, as it is entirely wrongheaded. Soros is Soros, simple as.

And, yes what he said sounds exactly what a Bush-era Neocon would say.
 
Bacle said:
You seem to forget which side uses uniformed forces and does it's damnest to avoid civie casualties; hint, it's not Hamas.
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Irrelavent this is not about reality. In reality Hamas is morally worse than Israel. This was about your hypotetical Israel that removes Gaza and all of it's inhabitants off the map. If both sides are genocidal then one may or may not be more moral than the other but it's only a lighter shade of gray not obvious and not something to be certain of.

Oh and also while using human shields is deplorable the fact if they are uniformed or not means less. Unless you are going to say the French resistance and partisans are morally worse than the Nazis?

Bacle said:
But we already know you admire Sharia Law and what the jihadi's are doing to take over Europe from 'cucked westerners'.
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Bacle said:
The situation in Gaza never would have been accepted by any other nation in the same scenario, and would have been handled decades ago, back before Israel left and Hamas took over.

If Egypt would just take Gaza for themselves, all this could be solved, but Egypt reasonably doesn't want anymore Hamas agents loose in their country than they already are.

Thank the Pharaoh's for the Egyptian military's clear-eyed willingness to not fuck around with Hamas and co like the Muslim Brotherhood did after the Arab Spring.

Gaza is a giant death cult camp, nothing more or less in my eyes, and I'm not someone who would willingly waste/spend any allied/friendly lives to try to fix that on the ground, the way Israel has for decades.

But now that I know you admire Sharia Law, a lot more things make sense; wonder whether your masters are east or west side of the Arabian Gulf.
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I do not work for Saudi Arabia or Iran nice job implying I do by the way.
But now I think I know why you support Israel removing the Palestinians to Europe. You are a cuckold fetishest! You want brown men to come to your nation and fuck your women, you are just gonna bitch about "Muh Sharia law!" without knowing why it's bad or being able to say why it's bad.

Unlike you I know why Islam is bad, the biggest reason is that Christians would end up being second class citizens. That is my main objection, not your liberal reason whether it's "Banning adultery is against freedom/eye for an eye is barbaric!"
 
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