Alternate History Map Thread

[Eparkhos]

This map is in even more bad taste:

The "Sub-Humans" population falls by more than 100 million between 1949 and 1979!

I wouldn't say as much, tbh, as it's showing a historic event at its worse possible extent--think Turkey invading Greece and doing the same to the Turks. The reason why I said Satharka's map was in bad taste was because it was showing a 'hehe reversal' of a people that were nearly completely destroyed IOTL (Anatolian Greeks) persecuting and nearly destroying the people that nearly completely destroyed them (Anatolian Turks) in such a context that equivalency is made between a real-life attrocity and a fictional one, effectively cheapening the lives of all those killed OTL to being equal to fictional characters.

 

[WolfBear]

I wouldn't say as much, tbh, as it's showing a historic event at its worse possible extent--think Turkey invading Greece and doing the same to the Turks. The reason why I said Satharka's map was in bad taste was because it was showing a 'hehe reversal' of a people that were nearly completely destroyed IOTL (Anatolian Greeks) persecuting and nearly destroying the people that nearly completely destroyed them (Anatolian Turks) in such a context that equivalency is made between a real-life attrocity and a fictional one, effectively cheapening the lives of all those killed OTL to being equal to fictional characters.

Good explanation; thanks!

 

[WolfBear]

 

[WolfBear]

Depends. I've seen it claimed that Chamberlain didn't care and everyone expected the Czech state to collapse anyway, but the Churchill faction seized on it and used media contacts to whip up a frenzy in Britain over the issue. Chamberlain was working to even get Danzig for Germany, but was outmaneuvered politically by Churchill's factor and the Poles pushing for war over negotiations. Once war was declared there was no negotiating possible. It was a rather complicated situation.

Anyway, my point here is that without the previous events in Czechoslovakia, Churchill's faction won't be able to stir anywhere near as much of a frenzy in Britain over a German invasion of Poland, especially if the non-Nazi German government that invades Poland in this TL will commit to limiting its gains to Danzig and the Polish Corridor, minus Gdynia (which can be given back to Poland as a bargaining chip in exchange for Poland recognizing the new post-war order).

Poland could, of course, try preempting a German invasion by attacking Germany when it is weak, but that carries a risk of this situation subsequently blowing up in Poland's face just like the 1923-1924 Franco-Belgian occupation of the Ruhr blew up in the Franco-Belgians' faces in real life. You have to remember that AFAIK, the Brits and Americans, or at least some/many of them, actually were sympathetic to Weimar German demands for territorial revisions in the east. Have the Poles act aggressively, and their arguments might only be strengthened.

Honestly, I'm not sure that playing defense on the Siegfried Line (or whatever it will be called in this TL) while playing offense in the East would actually be a bad strategy for a surviving Weimar Germany. Unless Britain is actually willing to step in and directly fight, I just don't think that the French can actually win a decisive victory by liberating Poland from the Germans here; they'll have to negotiate by agreeing to German demands for territorial revision. (And a British blockade can presumably be circumvented by having Germany trade with the Soviet Union, no? The Soviet Union can be given the Kresy in exchange for this help to Germany.)

A Weimar Germany would take longer to rearm but should still be finished in regards to this by the 1950s at the very latest, no? Will the Anglo-French already have nukes by then?

 

[VictortheMonarch]

Operation Fugitive

Date of Operation Initiation : 1849

A 1921 image of a Texan White Rhino

Operation Details : In 1849, nearly a century and twenty years ago, Operation Fugitive began. This Operation was a colaboration between the U.S. Government and Dewey Mullard (a Cattle Ranch Tycoon in the state of Texas). This Operation was based around the Ideal of bringing Rhinoceroses to the plains of Texas in an attempt to bolster the meat Industry and to attempt to make an Ivory farm to capitalize on the price of Ivory.

The first batch of Rhinoceroses Arrived in 1849 at the beginning of Summer. A total of five males and fifty five females were brought into the port of Corpus Christi, with one male Rhinoceros being euthanized after it escaped and trampled seven men to death. The remaining Rhinoceroses were loaded up onto a train cart and moved to decided upon ranch, just outside San Angelo.

Over the first ten years the operation was a massive success, with Mullard's Ranch selectively breeding the Rhino's to have bigger and larger horns. Infact, after one bull was born with a third horn, it became the main breeding bull for his ranch, with a one third chance of offspring carrying the mutation. The Operation would become a massive success, or so it would seem.

In 1860 the American Civil War would begin, and Texas would join the Confederate States of America. Dewey Mullard on the otherhand, was a hard Unionist, and after being caught handing intel over to Union hands he would be executed, and his ranches seized. His Rhinoceros Ranch would of course become state owned, though many of his ranches would be given over to loyalist ranch holders.

The men who would become in charge of the ranch were not as polite to the Rhinoceroses as Mullard's men. Instead of simply sawing off the horns of the Rhinoceroses, as Mullard was oft to do, they would instead saw through the skull, and leave the Rhinoceros to die a painful death. They also would do this in the field instead of in a protected area, resulting in the death of numerous ranch hands from stampedes.

Finally in 1864 a Union army would march into San Angelo, and in the heat of battle the walls that kept the Rhinoceroses locked in were destroyed by stray cannon fire, and all hell would be let loose. The massive Crash of Rhinoceroses would bullet out of the destroyed walls, and would stampede over the unsuspecting Confederate lines. The Crash would continue onward, and narrowly missing the Union army, who would be in no hurry to chase after them. This event would be known as The Crash of San Angelo.

Upon the Civil War's end the Government would attempt to recapture the Rhinoceroses, but as time went on and more and more Rhinoceroses were born, it instead became an order to kill them, as they indangered crops and out competed many of the cattle and bison that roamed the plains.

Hundreds of Rhinoceroses were euthanized over the coming decades, yet not enough to slow the rising Rhinoceros population. This however did not stop people from going after the Ivory, as many men prized it as a staple of hunting trophies, as it was much larger than it's African Counter parts. In 1901, the Rhinoceroses would find a savior.

Teddy Roosevelt first encountered the Rhinoceros in 1888 during a Hunting expedition. He fell in love with the animal, even taking one as a pet, which he named Berty. Upon becoming President in 1901, he would cancel the Kill on Sight order on Rhinoceroses, instead labeling them not as a invasive species, but as it's own species entirely. As it would seem, he would not be very far off the mark.

Studies show through genetics that the Texan White Rhinoceroses genes are different from the African White Rhinoceros, the most glaring difference is of course it's third horn, and massive front horn. Not only that but the Texan White Rhinoceros has thicker skin and more fat on it, so as to deal with winter. Not only that but their behavior is different.

Texan Rhinoceroses have been seen to huddle together during the colder months, these large masses draw in much heat from their bodies, keeping each other warm.

In 1954 a new species was classified; the Oklahoman White Rhinoceros. It's most glaring feature is of course it's smaller horns, and smaller size overall.

In 1981, the populations of these two species were estimated to be twenty thousand Texan White Rhinoceroses in the wild while the Oklahoman White Rhino is estimated to be at five thousand.

A map of the range of the American White Rhino by county. Red is for the Texan White Rhino, Blue for the Oklahoma White Rhino and mixed for
lands inhabited by Crashes of both Species.

 

[WolfBear]

 

[WolfBear]

An alternate post-World War I partition of the Ottoman Empire:

From this Russia-themed AH TL:

Feeble Constitution - A Red-and-Green Russia 1917 Timeline

Not even the ME map? :coldsweat: I am sure Finnish SDP is in hurry to join Trotsky.😜

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[VictortheMonarch]

Yucatan War

In 1951 a new proxy war would begin. However it would not be in Asia, nor would it be in the Middle East, not even Europe. This time it was in America's back yard.

Mexico was believed to be America's cowed neighbor to the south, but through careful planning, the Soviet forces would supply Communist Guerilla's in the Yucatan Peninsula, sparking what would be renown as the Yucatan War. At first everyone, even the soviets expected this war to end in a U.M.S Victory, but within a year and two months victory after victory fell to the Y.S.U forces, culminating in the Battle of Mexico City in 1952, which would cause the Seizure of Baja California not a day later.

This war was a disaster for America, seeing as it simply let Mexico die. Not only that but it would cause the Baja Crisis, in which the United Soviet Union of Mexico would demand that Baja be returned, while the American Government vehemently refused, ignoring the pleads of American Families as the Mexicans held 1,092 U.S. volunteers hostage. This would cost Harry Truman and the democratic party plenty, with Harry Truman being Impeached and his VP Alben Barkley Serving the rest of his term.

Dwight D. Eisenhauer would win on the promise to get the Volunteers back home, and he would. Under threat of Nuclear Annihilation and the Promise to return the Yucatan in Fifty Years, as U.M.S had 'loaned' Baja for said duration. The Volunteers were returned, but not as they went. Many missing toes, fingers, some their eyes. This instance would be known as the Red Barbarity, and would evoke a Red Scare in America.

When some months later the Cuban Revolution occurred, fearful of Communism spreading further in the Americas, the United States would opt instead to occupy Cuba. the American Occupation of Cuba would last until 1991.

The United Soviet Union of Mexico would collapse into civil war in 2022, with Democratic revolutionaries, Catholic Zealots and Communist fighting over the land of enchantment.

 

[Sārthākā]

The Imperial State of Alakesike
What if Alaska was sold to Qing China?​

​

According to Chevigny's book on Russian Alaska, among the famous candidates to sell Alaska - the famous ones being America, Britain and Lichtenstein - an unlikely candidate - Qing China was discussed as well. For reasons unclarified, both St. Petersburg and Beijing rejected this idea, though the Russian Ambassador in Beijing is shrewdly remembered having pointed out that the Chinese had more than enough money to buy Alaska for the offered price. What if the sale of Alaska to China happened in 1867?

For the next 3 decades or so, Qing China attempts to make Alakesike a new loyal frontier, warily aware of the fact of its waning popularity among the Chinese population. Families of loyalists and famous generals who had remained loyal to the Empire throughout the conflicts of the 19th century were given land to settle down in Alakesike - the Chinese transliteration of the Russian word Alaska. This was moderately successful and the commercial rights that China gave Russia ensured that Russians continued to have a presence in the region. Skillfully perhaps, the Chinese defended Alaska successfully from a Japanese landing attempt during the 1st Sino-Japanese War, and in the Boxer Rebellion, the Imperial Province remained neutral in the conflict, sparing it from invasion from the Canadian border, where a few thousand Canadian-British troops had been seen massing. In 1910-11, as the Qing Monarchy was toppled in mainland China the Dynasty fled to Alakesike, which remained loyal to the Dynasty. Claiming to be the rightful government of China, the province declared itself the continuation of Qing China, and welcomed royalist immigrants from China. In 1923, painfully aware of growing British and American interests in the country, and having very less manpower to resist, the nation opened its doors to all White Russian immigrants from the Far East. Already having a sizeable Russian minority, the Russian population boomed in Alakesike. In 1936, after the death of Emperor Puyi and the enthronement of his infant son as Emperor, the new government of Alakesike negotiated a final peace with the Republic of China, with the ROC and Alakesike recognizing Alakesian Independence in return for Alakesike recognizing ROC as the government of mainland China. In 1937 when the Japanese invaded China, Alakesike, despite not being a belligerent nation, did send all the supplies it could to the ROC and sent around ~5000 volunteers to fight in China with the Alakesian Expeditionary Legion to the Old Lands (AELOL). The nation's involvement in the Second Sino-Japanese War and subsequently WW2 as an Allied Power transformed the nation economically, from a backwater province to a growing economic hub in the north. This was continued in the Cold War - as Alakesike remained neutral between the Second and First Worlds, tactfully balancing Soviet and American influence and receiving heaps of investment from both (and from the PRC and ROC). By modern day, it is a tax-haven in the north, and a very prosperous nation.

Thoughts and comments?

​

 

[VictortheMonarch]

Thoughts and comments?

Wonderfully plotted out and decent to say the least

 

[WolfBear]

 

[VictortheMonarch]

In a world in which a spring of American Imperialism crops up earlier than imagined, America would find itself joining many of the European Superpowers in the Scramble for Africa. In the Berlin Conference, America would find itself Allied with Spain and Germany. Spain would find itself allying with the U.S. to enforce it's control over Morocco, with the only caveat being the annexation of Cuba by the Americans. Germany would Ally with America in order to gain more land, as America would find itself rivaling with the French, the German's main enemy politically at the time.

In the coming years a new project would begin in Germany, 'Transafrikanische Eisenbahn' or the Trans-African Railroad, would be the brain child of Fredrich Krupp, William Vanderbilt, and Kaiser Wilhelm. Stretching from Freistadt to Tanga, it crosses from the German Gabun Colony, through the American Congo, and back into German East African Colony.

 

[WolfBear]

The Imperial State of Alakesike
What if Alaska was sold to Qing China?

​

According to Chevigny's book on Russian Alaska, among the famous candidates to sell Alaska - the famous ones being America, Britain and Lichtenstein - an unlikely candidate - Qing China was discussed as well. For reasons unclarified, both St. Petersburg and Beijing rejected this idea, though the Russian Ambassador in Beijing is shrewdly remembered having pointed out that the Chinese had more than enough money to buy Alaska for the offered price. What if the sale of Alaska to China happened in 1867?

For the next 3 decades or so, Qing China attempts to make Alakesike a new loyal frontier, warily aware of the fact of its waning popularity among the Chinese population. Families of loyalists and famous generals who had remained loyal to the Empire throughout the conflicts of the 19th century were given land to settle down in Alakesike - the Chinese transliteration of the Russian word Alaska. This was moderately successful and the commercial rights that China gave Russia ensured that Russians continued to have a presence in the region. Skillfully perhaps, the Chinese defended Alaska successfully from a Japanese landing attempt during the 1st Sino-Japanese War, and in the Boxer Rebellion, the Imperial Province remained neutral in the conflict, sparing it from invasion from the Canadian border, where a few thousand Canadian-British troops had been seen massing. In 1910-11, as the Qing Monarchy was toppled in mainland China the Dynasty fled to Alakesike, which remained loyal to the Dynasty. Claiming to be the rightful government of China, the province declared itself the continuation of Qing China, and welcomed royalist immigrants from China. In 1923, painfully aware of growing British and American interests in the country, and having very less manpower to resist, the nation opened its doors to all White Russian immigrants from the Far East. Already having a sizeable Russian minority, the Russian population boomed in Alakesike. In 1936, after the death of Emperor Puyi and the enthronement of his infant son as Emperor, the new government of Alakesike negotiated a final peace with the Republic of China, with the ROC and Alakesike recognizing Alakesian Independence in return for Alakesike recognizing ROC as the government of mainland China. In 1937 when the Japanese invaded China, Alakesike, despite not being a belligerent nation, did send all the supplies it could to the ROC and sent around ~5000 volunteers to fight in China with the Alakesian Expeditionary Legion to the Old Lands (AELOL). The nation's involvement in the Second Sino-Japanese War and subsequently WW2 as an Allied Power transformed the nation economically, from a backwater province to a growing economic hub in the north. This was continued in the Cold War - as Alakesike remained neutral between the Second and First Worlds, tactfully balancing Soviet and American influence and receiving heaps of investment from both (and from the PRC and ROC). By modern day, it is a tax-haven in the north, and a very prosperous nation.

Thoughts and comments?

​

Maybe we could see a Taiwan-Alaska union during the Cold War in this TL?

 

[WolfBear]

In a world in which a spring of American Imperialism crops up earlier than imagined, America would find itself joining many of the European Superpowers in the Scramble for Africa. In the Berlin Conference, America would find itself Allied with Spain and Germany. Spain would find itself allying with the U.S. to enforce it's control over Morocco, with the only caveat being the annexation of Cuba by the Americans. Germany would Ally with America in order to gain more land, as America would find itself rivaling with the French, the German's main enemy politically at the time.

In the coming years a new project would begin in Germany, 'Transafrikanische Eisenbahn' or the Trans-African Railroad, would be the brain child of Fredrich Krupp, William Vanderbilt, and Kaiser Wilhelm. Stretching from Freistadt to Tanga, it crosses from the German Gabun Colony, through the American Congo, and back into German East African Colony.

What about a different west-to-east transcontinental African railroad? Have the Fashoda Incident go in France's favor, then have France conquer Ethiopia, and then you could get a French African transcontinental railroad from Ethiopia all of the way to Djibouti!

Interestingly enough, France doesn't even have to conquer all of Ethiopia for this to work; rather, France can simply reduce Ethiopia back to its 1886 borders:

 

[VictortheMonarch]

What about a different west-to-east transcontinental African railroad? Have the Fashoda Incident go in France's favor, then have France conquer Ethiopia, and then you could get a French African transcontinental railroad from Ethiopia all of the way to Djibouti!

Interestingly enough, France doesn't even have to conquer all of Ethiopia for this to work; rather, France can simply reduce Ethiopia back to its 1886 borders:

I do not like France. And also it would be a waste of time and money, the railroad would be more secure, as the frenchies actual plans for the railroad involved them going across the entire Sahara. Rather stupid if you ask me. Sand and trains will always result in disaster.

 

[WolfBear]

I do not like France. And also it would be a waste of time and money, the railroad would be more secure, as the frenchies actual plans for the railroad involved them going across the entire Sahara. Rather stupid if you ask me. Sand and trains will always result in disaster.

Why don't you like France?

 

[VictortheMonarch]

Why don't you like France?

To sum it up their involvement in the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand seems quite compelling, the PM of france at the time as it turned out had a few interactions with the Black Hand, and may very well have informed them of the arrival of Franz Ferdinand. Not only that but they all but made World War Two an inevitability, as they were the one's who pushed the intense debt onto Germany. They also are the one's who pushed the 'Germany was at fault for the war' that has seeped into even our education. Not only that but France is the reason why the U.S. Economy is on a decline, as they are the reason why the Gold Standard was abandoned. Not only that but they are the reason muslims are flooding Europe, as they and Germany pushed hard to allow them to come.

 

[stevep]

To sum it up their involvement in the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand seems quite compelling, the PM of france at the time as it turned out had a few interactions with the Black Hand, and may very well have informed them of the arrival of Franz Ferdinand. Not only that but they all but made World War Two an inevitability, as they were the one's who pushed the intense debt onto Germany. They also are the one's who pushed the 'Germany was at fault for the war' that has seeped into even our education. Not only that but France is the reason why the U.S. Economy is on a decline, as they are the reason why the Gold Standard was abandoned. Not only that but they are the reason muslims are flooding Europe, as they and Germany pushed hard to allow them to come.

Well that's a list.
a) Assuming there were some interaction between the French government and the Black Hand - and I've never seen any evidence of that myself - I very much doubt that the terrorists got their information about FF's scheduled from the French government. It was a public event to show the flag and allow his wife to be treated with the honour he thought she deserved after all.

b) Given the devastation that Germany left across much of France and Belgium they needed something to help them rebuild. [Unless possibly the US had listened to the suggestion of a cancellation of war debts as a quid pro quo at Versailles which was suggested I believe]. They would definitely have needed some source of coal given the deliberate destruction of their prime industrial areas by the retreating Germans.

After all the newly established German empire in 1871 imposed a heavy indemnity on France despite the fact virtually all the fighting has occurred in France. Which was deliberately shaped in the expectation that it would cripple France for decades. Actually the French paid it off very quickly. Instead after 1919 Germany did everything it could to avoid any repayments, including crashing its own currency. [Which did have the additional bonus that it paid off a lot of Germany's own war debts to its own population].

This wasn't the cause of WWII. There were plenty of other factors but the main one was the nature of Hitler and the deranged regime he ran. If he had kept to his word after Munich and cut back on his massive military build up then Germany could have been a large and fairly wealthy state, albeit crippled by Nazi policies in many ways. By this time reparations had long ceased being even a dream for the nations that had suffered German occupation in WWII.

c) France wasn't the only nation that blamed Germany for WWI and given what we know now Germany probably bears a greater share of the blame than anyone else.

d) I don't know why you think France caused the US to withdraw from the gold standard in 1933? That was the dire situation that the US economy was in due to its failure to react to the 1929 crash and then worsened things by its tariff increases. Furthermore that has nothing to do with the US economic decline from ~1970.

e) Similarly France has a lot of Muslim migrants from its former empire but then so do a number of other nations in Europe including Britain.

 

[VictortheMonarch]

Well that's a list.
a) Assuming there were some interaction between the French government and the Black Hand - and I've never seen any evidence of that myself - I very much doubt that the terrorists got their information about FF's scheduled from the French government. It was a public event to show the flag and allow his wife to be treated with the honour he thought she deserved after all.

b) Given the devastation that Germany left across much of France and Belgium they needed something to help them rebuild. [Unless possibly the US had listened to the suggestion of a cancellation of war debts as a quid pro quo at Versailles which was suggested I believe]. They would definitely have needed some source of coal given the deliberate destruction of their prime industrial areas by the retreating Germans.

After all the newly established German empire in 1871 imposed a heavy indemnity on France despite the fact virtually all the fighting has occurred in France. Which was deliberately shaped in the expectation that it would cripple France for decades. Actually the French paid it off very quickly. Instead after 1919 Germany did everything it could to avoid any repayments, including crashing its own currency. [Which did have the additional bonus that it paid off a lot of Germany's own war debts to its own population].

This wasn't the cause of WWII. There were plenty of other factors but the main one was the nature of Hitler and the deranged regime he ran. If he had kept to his word after Munich and cut back on his massive military build up then Germany could have been a large and fairly wealthy state, albeit crippled by Nazi policies in many ways. By this time reparations had long ceased being even a dream for the nations that had suffered German occupation in WWII.

c) France wasn't the only nation that blamed Germany for WWI and given what we know now Germany probably bears a greater share of the blame than anyone else.

d) I don't know why you think France caused the US to withdraw from the gold standard in 1933? That was the dire situation that the US economy was in due to its failure to react to the 1929 crash and then worsened things by its tariff increases. Furthermore that has nothing to do with the US economic decline from ~1970.

e) Similarly France has a lot of Muslim migrants from its former empire but then so do a number of other nations in Europe including Britain.

I cannot remember where I read that the Prime Minister had connections to the Black hand, but if I remember correctly his secretary's father was a black hand member, and a high ranking one at that. Besides that the war should never had reached such high ranking devastation. If Russia kept it's nose out then all would be good. No big war. Infact, russia had no reason to side with Serbia, it's RF had no relations to the Serbs, the Serbs themselves brought the war upon themselves.

I know Germany did all of the crashing of it's economy, and that is the Weimar's fault. this coinciding with the collapse of the market in 1930 would destitute Germany. That and the part of Saar being held by the French for a period also brought greater strain into Germany.

France wasn't the only one, I shall give you that, but it was the largest voice. Britain tried to appease Germany, as they saw what Versailles wrought.

The U.S. actually would continue a pseudo-gold standard, otherwise known as the Bretton Woods system. It was a stabilizer and made the U.S. Currency worth something. However Charles de Gaulle would pull France's gold out, which would cause several other nations to also pull out their gold. To avoid a total collapse in the economy, the U.S. would cease convertibility of the U.S. dollar to gold, making the dollar fiat.

I'm talking refugee's not just the Muslim ones. The Refugee Crisis is apart of a greater Crime Crisis in the E.U. many refugee's aren't veted, they're simply allowed in. This is why Europe's rape capitols have high numbers of refugee's living in them.

 

[VictortheMonarch]

The Majapahit Empire would find itself in a resurgance period from 1444 to 1594. Beginning under Queen Suhita Makapahit would win a slew of military victories, conquering land back under it's fold. The Largest war would take place in 1519, between Brunei and Majapahit, lasting four years and ending in total conquest of Brunei, it would mark the end of Sunni Islam in the Indonesian Islands, and ensure the rule of Hindu for all of time.

The Majapahit Empire would slowly collapse between 1620 and 1700, ending in conquest by the British Empire in 1700.

This is based around an actual EUIv game I played, perhaps I will find the save file and show ya'll it.