CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
I’ll get back to you later, eating lunch and long text
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
@Lord Invictus
All I can say, man you’re pretty good at using the near random theories I’ve seen for ASOIAF
That said, how about something to add, like Tywin’s new wife is say, one of Cersei’s female childhood friends......stepmother is your age.....reminds me of Borrasca
I was sort of the impression in canon, that Joanna may have been less in an affair with Aerys and more he gave her unwanted attention and really liked her and was disappointed that she married Tywin and he had to marry his sister
All I can say, man you’re pretty good at using the near random theories I’ve seen for ASOIAF
That said, how about something to add, like Tywin’s new wife is say, one of Cersei’s female childhood friends......stepmother is your age.....reminds me of Borrasca
I was sort of the impression in canon, that Joanna may have been less in an affair with Aerys and more he gave her unwanted attention and really liked her and was disappointed that she married Tywin and he had to marry his sister
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Joanna and Aerys is very ambiguous.
It’s hinter she may have been his lover or paramour-at least when they were young. Or it could have been one sided.
Personally I like A+J=J&C and I have a soft spot for any fanfiction where the Lannister siblings aren’t at each other’s throats.
Not sure who Tywin’s new wife would be-probably a Westerlander vassal or a Royce or something.
In the scenario he remarries because he doesn’t have the same feelings for Joanna and her memory.
He knows she is was involved with Aerys before they were married, and suspects strongly she was cuckolding him throughout the marriage. But he never caught her in the act and the children-look Lannister. Their hair is so light blonde it might be white in the sunlight. But it’s not enough evidence. And Aerys boasts could be the truth or could be his usual needling and provoking Tywin.
Thus while not shattering Tywin’s indomitable pride-his pride and self respect is a lot more uncertain. He wishes he knew for sure-he would kill them all if he knew for a fact they were Aerys’. But the doubt takes away his penchant for decisive no half measure action. So he sends them away and doesn’t kill them-mostly because it would look really bad and because he doesn’t have ironclad proof. The twincest shows his children are degenerate-but doesn’t prove beyond a doubt their Targ bastards.
Thus the twincest and Aerys boasting-is enough for him to send his children away. I imagine he was furious and didn’t care if they lived or died. If he was wrong and they were his-in Tywin’s mind that’s why he wasn’t tossing them into the sea with chains around their feet.
I think the Lannister siblings could do quite well for themselves with enough luck and grit. Even as exiled teens. And I like the idea of Cersei marrying Aegon VI. With her brothers and the GC behind her.
It’s hinter she may have been his lover or paramour-at least when they were young. Or it could have been one sided.
Personally I like A+J=J&C and I have a soft spot for any fanfiction where the Lannister siblings aren’t at each other’s throats.
Not sure who Tywin’s new wife would be-probably a Westerlander vassal or a Royce or something.
In the scenario he remarries because he doesn’t have the same feelings for Joanna and her memory.
He knows she is was involved with Aerys before they were married, and suspects strongly she was cuckolding him throughout the marriage. But he never caught her in the act and the children-look Lannister. Their hair is so light blonde it might be white in the sunlight. But it’s not enough evidence. And Aerys boasts could be the truth or could be his usual needling and provoking Tywin.
Thus while not shattering Tywin’s indomitable pride-his pride and self respect is a lot more uncertain. He wishes he knew for sure-he would kill them all if he knew for a fact they were Aerys’. But the doubt takes away his penchant for decisive no half measure action. So he sends them away and doesn’t kill them-mostly because it would look really bad and because he doesn’t have ironclad proof. The twincest shows his children are degenerate-but doesn’t prove beyond a doubt their Targ bastards.
Thus the twincest and Aerys boasting-is enough for him to send his children away. I imagine he was furious and didn’t care if they lived or died. If he was wrong and they were his-in Tywin’s mind that’s why he wasn’t tossing them into the sea with chains around their feet.
I think the Lannister siblings could do quite well for themselves with enough luck and grit. Even as exiled teens. And I like the idea of Cersei marrying Aegon VI. With her brothers and the GC behind her.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Okay
You know, it’s kinda weird that in canon, Cersei had no issues on Shae the prostitute being much younger than she is...I think even that was a surprise given how above so many regularly highly accepted sexual behavior males innWesteros have towards women...honestly those age gap marriages creep me out
Cersei, your new sister in law is young enough to be your own daughter.....not creeped out
You know, it’s kinda weird that in canon, Cersei had no issues on Shae the prostitute being much younger than she is...I think even that was a surprise given how above so many regularly highly accepted sexual behavior males innWesteros have towards women...honestly those age gap marriages creep me out
Cersei, your new sister in law is young enough to be your own daughter.....not creeped out
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I don’t recall Cersei ever thinking much of Shae?
In the show she seems hostile and suspicious of her at the Blackwater, and in the books she basically uses her cognitive dissonance superpowers to ignore the fact she was in Tywin’s bedchamber.
In the show she seems hostile and suspicious of her at the Blackwater, and in the books she basically uses her cognitive dissonance superpowers to ignore the fact she was in Tywin’s bedchamber.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Yeah, just saying, if she were a normal person from the 21st century....lots of squick to think about
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A lot of the time I imagine if Cersei were a different sort of person.
She’s such a rotten and stupid woman, that just about anything else looks good.
She’s such a rotten and stupid woman, that just about anything else looks good.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Rotten and Stupid and I think she may have a sort of brain defect or disorder that’s not even just psychopathy
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During her walk of shame-she sees a lot of the people she hurt in some way, including Ned and Sansa as well as Lady. They all stare at her accusingly-and that helps lead to her breakdown at the end.
So I always figured at some base level she has a conscience, at some base primal level she probably knows she hurt Sansa and is guilty of various crimes.
So I always figured at some base level she has a conscience, at some base primal level she probably knows she hurt Sansa and is guilty of various crimes.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
As I said before, I get the feeling at times when J was reading the book, that she doesn’t exactly understand what’s going on before her so well as well as have weird conceptions of things somehow
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Here’s a scenario.
Basically Stannis manages to get to the red keep and captures Joffrey, Cersei and Tyrion(who is still being nursed by Pod), Stannis considers executing them all on the spot but is held back when his men inform him that Tywin Lannister and the Tyrell’s have arrived.
Stannis holds the red keep-but the Lannister Tyrell host has retaken the city-or the bulk of it anyway. With Stannis now trapped. The Lannister’s and Tyrell’s realize Stannis is in and holds the keep.
Stannis goes outside to some balcony to see his forces get massacred as the Lannister’s and Tyrell’s retake the city(which Stannis himself took only about a hour or so before).
Tywin has about 60,000 men to 80,000 men with him. And the Tyrell’s behind him.
Stannis holds the queen, the king and tywin’s lawful heir. Stannis also has some support from his ships-but his men will be unlikely to either re re take the city or besiege the besiegers(basically a double Alesia).
So now we have a stand off between two of Westeros’ great hard asses. Tywin and Stannis.
If Stannis executes his prisoners, Tywin will storm the keep and Stannis will be dead. If Tywin yields, the Tyrell’s probably abandon him and at the very least cersei is going to be executed(even if Stannis is willing to offer say the wall for Joffrey).
Who blinks first? If Tywin breaks down the door-Stannis warns him he will execute the prisoners.
Stannis indomitability And Tywin’s pride.
Who blinks first?
Basically Stannis manages to get to the red keep and captures Joffrey, Cersei and Tyrion(who is still being nursed by Pod), Stannis considers executing them all on the spot but is held back when his men inform him that Tywin Lannister and the Tyrell’s have arrived.
Stannis holds the red keep-but the Lannister Tyrell host has retaken the city-or the bulk of it anyway. With Stannis now trapped. The Lannister’s and Tyrell’s realize Stannis is in and holds the keep.
Stannis goes outside to some balcony to see his forces get massacred as the Lannister’s and Tyrell’s retake the city(which Stannis himself took only about a hour or so before).
Tywin has about 60,000 men to 80,000 men with him. And the Tyrell’s behind him.
Stannis holds the queen, the king and tywin’s lawful heir. Stannis also has some support from his ships-but his men will be unlikely to either re re take the city or besiege the besiegers(basically a double Alesia).
So now we have a stand off between two of Westeros’ great hard asses. Tywin and Stannis.
If Stannis executes his prisoners, Tywin will storm the keep and Stannis will be dead. If Tywin yields, the Tyrell’s probably abandon him and at the very least cersei is going to be executed(even if Stannis is willing to offer say the wall for Joffrey).
Who blinks first? If Tywin breaks down the door-Stannis warns him he will execute the prisoners.
Stannis indomitability And Tywin’s pride.
Who blinks first?
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@CarlManvers2019 thoughts on the above scenario?
Ganurath
Well-known member
Depends on which way Varys swings, since he knows all the back entrances for Tywin to get his usual blackguards in. If he isn't quick to support Tywin, though, Mel will use Edric Storm to send a shadow baby after Tywin to break the siege. Cersei and the maidens would be killed before capture either way, though. Remember the orders she gave the Kingsguard?
Here's a different scenario:
Balon learned a different lesson from his father's interactions with greenlanders. Rather than coming to the view that the New Way sucks, he thinks that the consequences of the Old Way sucks. So, rather than go hardline Old Way, he reigns in his father's
What're the Iron Islands to do?
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Mel wasn't there though? And it would take time for her to get there. Also she'd have to have sex with Edric Storm and sail a journey taking at least a day. This is a stand off that has to be resolved one way or another in hours not days. Depends if Ser Illyn was slain or not himself. Also honestly Cersei is a coward at heart, she'd have her ladies slain and then order Illyn to stop. Varys doesn't want Stannis to win, but unless he can move quickly-he won't be able to interfere, and likely in the event of Stannis winning planned to extricate himself. Assuming Stannis has at least Joff and Tyrion if not Cersei, Tywin can storm the keep and lose most of his legacy even if Stannis is cut to pieces afterwards, or he can yield and do the most un Tywin thing to ask of him-swallow his pride. Stannis can either yield to the usurpers outside his door and die(or embrace a lie and give up his right and the law) or not yield and probably die anyway. But Stannis is iron and iron doesn't bend.
Eh? The Ironborn whenever on a reformist course have always sought good ties with the Lannisters and Westerlands-their closest geographic neighbor. I'm not sure how you would get the notion Quellon is appeasing Tywin. Balon probably backs the crown and attacks the north here, because Ned is a traitor as far as he knows. Or lends his fleet to backing the Lannisters-because most of their trade would be with the Lannisters. Gold and Iron. He also knows Stannis likely wants his head, and ingratiating himself with the boy king and House Lannister would further his reformist aims.
Probably back the crown to answer your question, not a kingdom in rebellion. Which would given the history of the iron islands further aim to show his loyalist intentions, "I'm not a secessionist rebel, I'm loyal to the Iron Throne".
How this affects the war is uncertain-an alliance with the crown from the start or near the start will likely have the Ironborn raiding the north(I'm assuming Balon is indifferent to Theon here), and the Reach(also in rebellion against the Iron Throne). I suppose in theory he could back Renly, but Balon has no reason to back any of the Baratheon brothers, not the one who wants his head, I guess he might back Renly at first as a sure winner and then shadowbaby happens and he joins the Lannister cause. But either the Lannisters or Renly definitely.
Probably lends some of his fleet to support one of the above(likely Joffrey given the time tables involved), a reformist pro Iron Throne Balon will likely try to ingratiate himself with the Lannisters and seek to show he is both useful and loyal. The same in the event Renly isn't shadowbabied and zerg stomps Stannis and the Lannisters given his numerical superiority.
That's my general take though.
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Ganurath
Well-known member
Quellon lead reaving against Fair Isle prior to Tywin killing the Reynes by drowning an entire castle. Then, he made it so permission was required to reave (which the Westerlands never would've gotten,) arranged for some of his peoples' thralls to their homelands (likely those with the most accessible homeland, the Westerlands,) started taxing salt wives (how else would the Westerland women who couldn't be returned due to marriage ties have their families compensated?) and picked up a greenlander wife (who, given the timing, likely met him at the Anniversary Tourney of 272 AC, in Lannisport.) On top of all that, the two-faced coward didn't make a move in Robert's Rebellion until after Tywin had committed his forces.
Also, why would Savvy!Balon's third son be in the North? He never rebelled in this AU.
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He ordered reaving because Tytos was basically asking for it. Like he was a such a door mat Quellon couldn't control his lords if he had told them not to take advantage of a man so weak he let his mistress walk over him.
Like? He made efforts to ensure good ties with the Lannisters, or at least no animosity? The people he was closest to geographically and who could make his islands rich? Also the guy who would have changed the name from the Iron islands to the skull islands? He didn't try to get on that guy's bad side? he didn't want to risk the iron islands being exterminated by a man who had shown he had the will to do just that?
What an absolute ass kisser! He was worse than Pycelle, the toady. Just because Tywin is the antagonist in the first three books, doesn't mean he was the bad guy or the designated enemy to make for everyone in universe.
Tytos tolerated reaving, Tywin didn't. Quellon adjusted his policy accordingly.
How exactly is this a bad thing? Like are you seriously claiming because Tywin bad, everything around him was bad? Quellon released thralls, and didn't seek to antagonize his neighbor? This is bad, in your opinion because...Tywin was in charge?
Are you seriously claiming Tytos ineptitude was good?
Savvy Balon likely tries to stay in the Iron Throne's good graces and maintain amiable ties with the Westerlands, he might encourage intermarriage amongst his children-there are plenty of Lannister brides pretty enough and with large dowries.
Because historically speaking, whenever the Iron born have tried to change their rotten culture, they've sought alliances and trade with the people who can offer them both and are also a quick sail away.
Ganurath
Well-known member
So, he's a doormat to his subordinates, but not to Tywin Lannister?
I was making a character assessment of Quellon, not Tywin. Specifically, I believe that Quellon's reforms were motivated by fear rather than compassion, intelligence, or some other commendable trait. Tywin's character only factors in in the sense of how Quellon would perceive the guy after he eradicated two families, one of which was killed by drowning. He would see Tywin as dangerous, but could be appeased, as indicated by the continued existence of the debtor families that paid up and/or provided hostages. So, Quellon got to appeasing.
The only instance of this was Quellon, and while divergent from canon, Savvy!Balon would still view his father's cowardly reign in contempt.
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He let them reave when a man who wouldn't retaliate was in charge? That's being a doormat? Then changed his policy when the situation in the west changed? I don't understand your logic.
I would say the motivation is less important here than the consequences. A reformist ironborn society is good for Westeros, good for the Ironborn and pretty much not bad for anybody except old way die hards. Whether or not it was motivated by a genuine desire to see the Ironborn reform as a culture or to avoid retaliation, I see no difference beyond what that says about Quellon's character. I'm also not seeing the problem here? Tywin has shown how he will handle opposition, and Quellon sought to avoid his wrath. A wrath that would have been backed up by the Iron Throne. So it was rational self interest.
Uh you do remember a Lannister woman was queen of the iron islands? Who tried to introduce the Seven? Lelia Lannister, Harmund II Hoare
These are the main examples I can find on the wiki without having to do more research.
Savvy Balon would know the Ironborn had not the strength to fight all of Westeros. And without a greyjoy rebellion to lift his spirits-Robert's descent into hedonistic drudgery is likely accelerated. Maybe he dies a few years earlier, maybe not.
Balon would seek to make alliances where possible, most definitely with the Lannisters but also the Riverlands and the North, and perhaps the Reach as well. He has sons of his own to wed off, and a daughter. And brothers. The idea would be to reave in the stepstones or off the disputed lands, while seeking good ties in Westeros, as you say.
The Old Way will never again work, and so the Ironborn must instead advance their interests under a framework of a united westeros, because they dont have the military power to fight the rest of them. A savvy smart Balon would seek alliances where possible, and develop trade ties with his neighbors, in the event of a war following Robert's death Balon would under this framework have a better position to involve himself and get benefits afterwards.
If something close to the canon Wot5K happens-Balon has now had nearly twenty years to forge alliances, develop ties and also ensure his men have kept sharp and experienced fighting in the free cities and stepstones.
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Ganurath
Well-known member
...You called him a doormat for letting his lords reave alongside him. I was asking why he'd be a doormat for them, but not for Tywin.
Harmund was a ward to the Lannisters the way Theon was to the Starks. When they tried to impose their reforms, it prompted a swift rebellion... a the mutilation of the greenlander who called herself Queen.
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He let them reave the west. He didn't when Tywin was in charge. Its self interest. Tytos was ineffectual and had shown he could be taken advantage of, without reprisal. Tywin was not. Quellon wasn't so stupid as to say, "hey look Lord Lannister is a total pussy, but just because I'm a goody two shoes we can't exploit his weakness, that would be mean", any lord who did that would lose the respect of his subordinates off the bat. When there is easy plunder to have right there.
Yes and Hagon got mutilated and hanged for his treachery and barbarism(and a well deserved hanging it was)*. And part of the point of wardship is to build friendships and ties or even in this case marriages. Ned likely hoped Theon would have a similar relationship with Robb(not marriage but warm relations) once he came of age.
Also Quellon sent thralls(slaves) home and compensated the families of women who were forcibly abducted and raped by asking their captors to..pay a tax.He did this in your interpretation to stay on good terms with a man who could and would pave Pyke over with skulls and bones.
I am not seeing the problem here. You seem to be saying Quellon was cowardly or soft for taking entirely rational actions, that is not antagonizing someone who could destroy him and his people. And that he didn't make these choices because of his compassion or nobility but to avoid antagonizing Tywin lannister.
So hoping i have summarized your perspective-these actions are bad or at least arent worthy of respect because they were taken from a position of fear and calculating self interest? If I have misread your position feel free to clarify.
My position is these actions are inherently laudable on their own terms, whatever Quellon's personal intention was.
*Also by the way, you seem really close to justifying a man literally mutilating his own mother.
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