ASOIAF/GOT ASOIAF Ideas, Recs, and Discussion thread

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Lord Invictus said:
And part of the point of wardship is to build friendships and ties or even in this case marriages.
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No, that's fostering. Wards like Theon are hostages, to be killed if their family act up.

My position is that Quellon was misrepresented by what was written by the Maesters, and that an undignified motive behind his actions provides nuance to Balon's canonical clinging to the Old Way: He was trying to be the Tywin to the Tytos of Quellon by sharply contrasting his apparent flaw. Quellon's nadir wasn't the embrace of the New Way, though. It was suffering the consequences of the Old Way. So, where Balon sought to emulate Tywin's success, he wound up doubling down on his father's failings, to catastrophic results. Savvy!Balon made a more accurate assessment, and strove to avoid consequences rather than double down on his father's mistakes.
 
Ganurath said:
No, that's fostering. Wards like Theon are hostages, to be killed if their family act up.

My position is that Quellon was misrepresented by what was written by the Maesters, and that an undignified motive behind his actions provides nuance to Balon's canonical clinging to the Old Way: He was trying to be the Tywin to the Tytos of Quellon by sharply contrasting his apparent flaw. Quellon's nadir wasn't the embrace of the New Way, though. It was suffering the consequences of the Old Way. So, where Balon sought to emulate Tywin's success, he wound up doubling down on his father's failings, to catastrophic results. Savvy!Balon made a more accurate assessment, and strove to avoid consequences rather than double down on his father's mistakes.
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There isn't really a clear line between them though? Just because that's one reason, it doesn't mean the other reason isn't pursued as well. Else Theon would never have been treated with the courtesy he was. Execute him yes if Dad acts up, but also seek to ensure he has good relationships built, so when Dad dies he will maintain those relationships as lord.

Then he would do just about everything I said. A smart Balon would have realized that the Ironborn could not make war on a united westeros, and would have sought to build alliances, develop trade ties and encourage privateering and sell sail activity further afield(both to satisfy the men for whom that line of work was their life and livelihood), and make alliances in future Westerosi wars on a basis of supporting whoever would give the ironborn the most in return. Whether that be the Lannisters, Starks, Tyrells, a Targaryen restoration or whatever. As opposed to attacking the north and then asking for an alliance(he literally did the crown and Lannister's work for them so why should they give him something for a service he rendered unasked?). If he wishes to support the crown, raid the north, declare for Joffrey, send ships to aid in the defense of KL, and then the crown would be more inclined to give him something in return-like say Deepwood Motte or holdings on the northern coast, or a high lord for Asha to marry. Or support the Starks, attack the westerlands and carve out a kingdom of the isles and the rock. Marry Asha to Robb while having Theon take a Lannister bride and claiming CR for himself. Together the wolf and the kraken would be unassailable.

Balon is simply a moron. Who made the dumbest series of decisions possible.

But now I think I understand your POV-your trying to portray Balon as reacting against his father and not a reactionary with too much pride and not enough brains. You want to portray him as a more nuanced and tragic figure I see. As opposed to the general interpretation.

I am sympathetic to the inclination, but I must disagree. Sometimes idiots are idiots.
 
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So uh not sure how to put this.

But given ASOIAF is the song of ice and fire-we know the threat from ice(the others), what about fire?

I suppose it could be Daenerys/dragons/rhllorist magic.

But assuming Ice is a mystical supernatural threat to human life, what does fire entail?

Fire fae? As opposed to ice fae? Shadows or perhaps R’hllor himself? Assuming such a god or being exists.
 
CarlManvers2019 said:
There maybe SOMETHING in Stygai or Asshai
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I was referring to something of more immediate relevance to the story though. Though the existence of “shadows” and what not could mean some sort of Fire mirror to the others exists.

Not what might dwell at the edge of the map.

The show if it gives us any implication is that Daenerys and her dragons, her passion-is the Fire that must be defeated.

But I am not so sure the the books will treat the matter as simply.
 
Lord Invictus said:
I was referring to something of more immediate relevance to the story though. Though the existence of “shadows” and what not could mean some sort of Fire mirror to the others exists.

Not what might dwell at the edge of the map.

The show if it gives us any implication is that Daenerys and her dragons, her passion-is the Fire that must be defeated.

But I am not so sure the the books will treat the matter as simply.
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I think Daenerys may eventually find her way to Old Valyria and find stuff from there that maybe how she will properly control her dragons and maybe unleash a greater doom on the world
 
Idea: Bran Stark for whatever the reason does not climb the tower and get pushed off by Jaime and end up in a coma

He goes onto come alongside Ned, Arya & Sansa to King’s Landing

His Warg/Greenseer Powers however somehow start activating in his sleep and eventually while he’s awake

Jojen & Meera Reed try to come along, Jojen maybe knows that something has changed but Bran still needs to be Beyond-The-Wall, though a bit of a problem given how they’re lowborn in comparison to everyone else

Bran maybe uses his powers on Joffrey when he starts threatening with his sword, people are probably weirded out by Joffrey’s sudden spasms and Cersei maybe has Mycah the Butcher’s boy executed

With Lady and Nymeria not being killed or leaving, I think Sansa and Arya gradually activate Warg powers, if much less powerful, of their own

In King’s Landing, Bran perhaps eventually experiments and starts ending up spying on people

Summer, Lady and Nymeria are probably all put into a special Kennel on the basis of how much they scare the fuck out of people
 
CarlManvers2019 said:
Idea: Bran Stark for whatever the reason does not climb the tower and get pushed off by Jaime and end up in a coma

He goes onto come alongside Ned, Arya & Sansa to King’s Landing

His Warg/Greenseer Powers however somehow start activating in his sleep and eventually while he’s awake

Jojen & Meera Reed try to come along, Jojen maybe knows that something has changed but Bran still needs to be Beyond-The-Wall, though a bit of a problem given how they’re lowborn in comparison to everyone else

Bran maybe uses his powers on Joffrey when he starts threatening with his sword, people are probably weirded out by Joffrey’s sudden spasms and Cersei maybe has Mycah the Butcher’s boy executed

With Lady and Nymeria not being killed or leaving, I think Sansa and Arya gradually activate Warg powers, if much less powerful, of their own

In King’s Landing, Bran perhaps eventually experiments and starts ending up spying on people

Summer, Lady and Nymeria are probably all put into a special Kennel on the basis of how much they scare the fuck out of people
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Jojen and Meera aren’t lowborn though?

I suspect what will happen is that Bran will start warging, same as his siblings, presumably Lady isn’t killed if Bran is with the party.

He either ends up a Lannister hostage, or likely dead at some point.

If war breaks out and the Lannister’s have Sansa bran and Arya-that gives them a much stronger bargaining position(they’ll say they have Arya as long as possible too).

For Bran’s purposes-this makes getting him to Bloodraven a lot harder. Especially if Jojen and Meera are dead or Lannister hostages as well.
 
The Reeds are Crannogmen, not even liked by Southerners as I recall, probably don’t even have much in the way of money and trde
 
Ganurath said:
No, that's fostering. Wards like Theon are hostages, to be killed if their family act up.
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Actually, being a hostage for good behavior doesn't mean that Theon will be killed. It means that the other Greyjoys will be killed.

The idea is that Ned Stark (the King's most trusted lord) would raise the Greyjoy's legitimate heir with the strongest claim to the title as his own and if Theon's daddy should ever misbehave then said daddy will get the chop while Theon, as the legitimate heir, will be elevated to the throne.
 
Which is why the boundary between wardship and being a hostage is not a clear cut one.

Executing Theon if Balon rebels either means the II have to be given to Asha or another family-the latter of which defeats the point of taking him in the first place.

It’s clear the intention was for Theon to be elevated to lord ship once Balon died. And the hope was that he would have forged friendships with the Starks-specifically Robb who would be Lord after Ned.

Thus it’s wrong to say Harmund was a hostage imposed on his people-well no more than Theon would be.

And thus, I find any justification for the action of Hargon and the Shrike to be morally appalling.
 
CarlManvers2019 said:
Bran maybe uses his powers on Joffrey when he starts threatening with his sword, people are probably weirded out by Joffrey’s sudden spasms and Cersei maybe has Mycah the Butcher’s boy executed

In King’s Landing, Bran perhaps eventually experiments and starts ending up spying on people
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If Bran could warg Joffrey reliably, he could rule the 7 Kingdoms from the shadows, or just use Joffrey to utterly ruin House Lannister.
 
Or prevent war entirely.

So uh here’s that Cersei purple days style loop.

When having sex with Jaimie in the tower at winterfell-she suddenly has an aneurysm and collapses.

Thus begins her looping from that point.

She’d be confused and unsettled at first and would try different things as a way to see what is going on.

She’d likely get caught and executed in more than a few loops.

But the character development would begin, with countless deaths, seeing her children die, Jaimie die, House Lannister destroyed, and so on, it would take a lot of time, but eventually she’d start realizing “I’m the cause of my own problems”, first off this would probably lead to her trying to hide the affair better, but that wouldn’t work.

And from there, her narcissism and self delusion would start breaking down, and the first seeds of a conscience would grow.
 
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Tryglaw said:
If Bran could warg Joffrey reliably, he could rule the 7 Kingdoms from the shadows, or just use Joffrey to utterly ruin House Lannister.
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Attempting a warging into Joffrey on first try may just hurt him horribly, which I find a pretty nice idea
 
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