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ASOIAF/GOT ASOIAF Ideas, Recs, and Discussion thread

Simonbob

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Would rice and potatoes help the North's population through winter if it can be grown up North? And would there be gold or silver or platinum in any decent amount up North? Or diamonds and other gems really given the volcanic activity up there.
We don't know.

There's almost certainly a bunch of mineables up there, but are they currently being mined? Perhaps. Do they already have rice/potatoes? Perhaps.


The books/show never really give those sorts of details. So, they might, and a fanfic author could well use them in a story.
 

Simonbob

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Quinoa could possibly be grown in the North though. There’s areas of the world where quinoa is grown in colder temperatures
Perhaps.

I'm not really sure of the details, but a number of "superfoods" have been bred for colder climes than where we found them.

For fanfic? It just needs to be reasonable.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

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I'm assuming the biggest issue keeping them from developing a population as massive as the Reach is the food issue.

The first men seem evolved to handle extreme climates so.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

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The Weirwood Queen.

tldr:
The Old Gods decide to throw their cosmic weight around and Sansa becomes a literal skinwalker and chained by a vow to become queen and "seed Weirwoods across the South" she kinda...becomes a huge player in the game.
https://archiveofourown.org/works/30346350/chapters/74808081

I rather like it even though I'm not a fan of the wicca undertones, it's at least good to read if you've got yourself a few hours of time to kill.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

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One thing I never understood about the canal meme is that wouldn't it make the Tully's the wealthiest house in the realm?

Since freaking everything would have to pass through the riverlands? And the ramifications of that are extensive. It would make Aegon a complete fucktard for not integrating them if the canal network was already built by then and the whole of the Ironborn and their history and culture would change drastically to where they might even end up as the mercenary navy of House Tully?

Like the ramifications are more than just "and the North gets rich.".
 

TheRomanSlayer

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Building canals can be really expensive. Although there may also be potential in a river based trade between the Riverlands, the Reach, and the Westerlands, plus you might be able to build a canal that connects King's Landing to the Reach.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

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Building canals can be really expensive. Although there may also be potential in a river based trade between the Riverlands, the Reach, and the Westerlands, plus you might be able to build a canal that connects King's Landing to the Reach.
Which would be worth the endeavor and if you had say Valyrian magitech bullshit or Aegon deciding to command Balerion to dig like a dog one could in theory mitigate the costs.

There were a lot of Normans who migrated to England before William the Bastard conquered it. Seeing it as a chance to profit and build better lives. You could handwave that Valyrian smiths and engineers did migrate over in the centuries before the Doom. Maybe even have Westeros be a place for the vassals of disgraced Dragon Lords to "retire to" after they lost their "game of thrones" etc.

Although looking at a map, linking trade routes via canals in the South doesn't seem like it would be too difficult. Owing to the way the rivers seem set up, you would just have to make a few connections here and there. the North is another matter, but if they were able to keep Mammoths and maybe make alliances with giants...Maaaybe, maaaybbe they'd be able to mitigate that.

I get that it's an unpopular meme mind ye, but my point was more 'If done right". Though the political situation would be vastly different. And hilariously explain Tywin's hostility more if the Westerlands was competing with not one but two hyper wealthy neighbors that were gunning for the Lannister's perceived monopoly on softpower.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

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If you have multiple families trying to make cannals, you can have multiple successes and fialure- thus dispelling the hints of mary sueness that make the meme distastefull.
Exactly, the cost, the losses and once you succeed? You have the natural consequences of canals.

IE river piracy and organized crime and Houses like the Frey's and Tully's acting as laundromats. Which IIRC was a plague in China.

"I remember it well, Lord Hoster dispatched his river fleet through the canals into the Blackwater rush and he blockaded King's Landing by sea. When the Lannister fleet came to blockade the capital by sea, the royal fleet fell on them and the Trout did not move one fin to stir. By the time we entered the Capital the smallfolk of flea bottom were eating each other"

Or something like that.
 

Buba

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you might be able to build a canal that connects King's Landing to the Reach.
A canal linking the basin of the upper Mander and the middle Blackwater should be possible.
Requires either money for pond locks, or the SI getting the locals to master the technology and use it. In OTL these took decades - if not centuries - to spread.
 

stephen the barbarian

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One thing I never understood about the canal meme is that wouldn't it make the Tully's the wealthiest house in the realm?
if you can connect the trident to the the gods eye, you'd connect trade between king landing and the vale.
canal linking the basin of the upper Mander and the middle Blackwater should be possible.
aiui that would also connect to the westlands as well.


i really wish that asofi/got had shown more river based trade in westros.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

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I'm tempted to do something with this but only if you guys think my Stargate work is quality enough to do something with ASOIAF.
 

Emperor Tippy

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One thing I never understood about the canal meme is that wouldn't it make the Tully's the wealthiest house in the realm?

Since freaking everything would have to pass through the riverlands? And the ramifications of that are extensive. It would make Aegon a complete fucktard for not integrating them if the canal network was already built by then and the whole of the Ironborn and their history and culture would change drastically to where they might even end up as the mercenary navy of House Tully?

Like the ramifications are more than just "and the North gets rich.".
There is basically zero realistic way to build a canal network in/through the Riverlands pre-Conquest. Remember that the Riverlands was always basically the afterthought and the battlefield for everyone else. It's where the Vale, North, and Westerlands fought whenever they had a dispute. It's where the Ironborn prefered to raid (ease of raiding vs. available wealth vs. defenses).

You should also remember that House Tully never ruled the Riverlands until Aegon installed them. They became the Lord Paramount because they were the first to turn on Harren the Black and support Aegon, not because they had some historic claim.

Riverrun is also not positioned well, at all, to really have any control over any canals that make any real sense. Seagard, Harrenhall, Darry, and the Blackwater Rush Fork are the locations realistically able to exert serious control; none of which is in the Tully realm of influence.

-x-x-x-

Canals are built, ultimately, to secure territory over the long term and interconnect secure territories. They don't cross borders between sovereign powers because they are too expensive, take too long to build, are too hard to secure, and become prime invasion routes.

Honestly, the Riverlands is the polity least likely to be pro-Canal. Seagard-Greenfork, Greenfork-Gods Eye, Blackwater-Mandar is great for the Vale, Crownlands, Stormlands, North, Iron Isles, and Westerlands because it provides secure, internal, cheap, supply lines and transport. But the Vale? They already have relatively easy, cheap, and consistent access to all of those places.

The Targaryens should have pushed for canals, but then they sucked horribly at actually doing anything to secure their rule.

I mean if Aegon had an ounce of brains he would have drawn the Crownlands border at the Harrenhall-Darry line and down along the river. It's both the natural border and makes the Crownlands substantially more secure and politically cohesive. He would have also broken the Reach into at least two separate realms (one ruled by Old Town, one by Highgarden) and probably also grabbed off some of the Reach lands for the Stormlands as well.

For canal building, the Targaryens have a massive advantage in dragons. Even ignoring the sheer muscle power and digging potential, just their ability to breath fire would massively accelerate land clearance and the ability to (rough) survey from the air would substantially improve planning. If the dragons are more involved, well they could probably dig most of the canal themselves with sheer muscle power. Then have the smallfolk dump in gravel and use dragonfire to melt the stone to create a solid, stone, foundation.

That the Targaryens have dragons, are the de jure absolute sovereign, and that the Riverlands is a shit show also means that it would be relatively easy for the canals to be Crown properties and thus a continuing income stream and control method.

-x-x-x-
I really would like to see a Conquest fic where the Targs aren't either political incompetents or magic using super deities. Also I will accept the magic using if the sheer stupidity is removed. I mean their canon behavior really comes across as Aegon waking up one morning and deciding that he wants to conquer a continent because he is bored and "Fuck you, I have dragons."

He took zero steps to secure loyalty, destroy/co-opt competing power bases, establish a succession, or create the infrastructure of rule. Honestly, he was very much a warlord more than he was a King.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

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There is basically zero realistic way to build a canal network in/through the Riverlands pre-Conquest. Remember that the Riverlands was always basically the afterthought and the battlefield for everyone else. It's where the Vale, North, and Westerlands fought whenever they had a dispute. It's where the Ironborn prefered to raid (ease of raiding vs. available wealth vs. defenses)
Not for the Riverlands themselves so much as bridging various rivers for ease of travel for commerce purposes. Though you're right in that most of those would be controlled by other Kingdoms.
You should also remember that House Tully never ruled the Riverlands until Aegon installed them. They became the Lord Paramount because they were the first to turn on Harren the Black and support Aegon, not because they had some historic claim.
The Hoares I should have said though I'm guessing the Tullys would have inherited that theoretical wealth on behalf of the Targs.

Theres really no reason for the Riverlands not to have been annexes into the crownlands.

Riverrun is also not positioned well, at all, to really have any control over any canals that make any real sense. Seagard, Harrenhall, Darry, and the Blackwater Rush Fork are the locations realistically able to exert serious control; none of which is in the Tully realm of influence.
Isn't Riverrun a key location strategically though?


The Targaryens should have pushed for canals, but then they sucked horribly at actually doing anything to secure their rule
Certainly would have made projecting their powers easier and trade more efficient I would assume.


I mean if Aegon had an ounce of brains he would have drawn the Crownlands border at the Harrenhall-Darry line and down along the river. It's both the natural border and makes the Crownlands substantially more secure and politically cohesive. He would have also broken the Reach into at least two separate realms (one ruled by Old Town, one by Highgarden) and probably also grabbed off some of the Reach lands for the Stormlands as well
Minimize Tyrell power and create a domain of their own as large as any of the other Kingdoms?


For canal building, the Targaryens have a massive advantage in dragons. Even ignoring the sheer muscle power and digging potential, just their ability to breath fire would massively accelerate land clearance and the ability to (rough) survey from the air would substantially improve planning. If the dragons are more involved, well they could probably dig most of the canal themselves with sheer muscle power. Then have the smallfolk dump in gravel and use dragonfire to melt the stone to create a solid, stone, foundation
Martin seems to think the high middle ages were the same economically as post Rome Europe. Hence you get subsistence farming and other things as the main means by which these lords with domains larger than most medieval Kingdoms maintain their wealth.


-x-x-x-
I really would like to see a Conquest fic where the Targs aren't either political incompetents or magic using super deities. Also I will accept the magic using if the sheer stupidity is removed. I mean their canon behavior really comes across as Aegon waking up one morning and deciding that he wants to conquer a continent because he is bored and "Fuck you, I have dragons."

He took zero steps to secure loyalty, destroy/co-opt competing power bases, establish a succession, or create the infrastructure of rule. Honestly, he was very much a warlord more than he was a King.
Having a steadier steam of Valyrian migration into Westeros and bringing their engineering and skills might achieve that?

Aegon keeps his dragons and his magic is expanded and presumably because the field is a little more competitive. He has to be smarter?
 
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Simonbob

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There were the Not!Legions, they were getting hit by dragons, some of those guys going to Westerous with their Not!Roman engineering is quite reasonable.


Could well be a reason why the Citadel doesn't like magic, if you're using that. Refugees from the evil magic Dragon Empire, seeing magic in that kind of way? Youch.

Magic does seem to have serious costs in the books, after all. Mostly not worth it.
 
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