Hamas Launches Offensive Against Southern Israel

[Bacle]

I never insisted you used words you didn't use, you literally said Palestinians and I was answering that post.

No I didn't, I have specified Hamas/Gaza directly in this thread.

Check the search function; before the post you just replied to, I have not used the word Palestinians once in this thread.

Now, I am convinced you actually meant Palestinians, and that it was a verbal slip. You literally said, Palestinians, and I answered it as such. Also, this thread is only five pages long, and you have posted only 15 times... Though, you have mentioned Palestinians elsewhere and have spoke at length about how you don't think their existence as a people is legitimate...

So you know what, I know believe you actually meant it. As it aligns with what you have said elsewhere. You literally went at length at how you don't believe they exist as a people right here. You are calling them a fake ethnicity in response to me believing that you said that the Palestinians as a people should be crushed. I mean if you didn't believe that, why would you go on a rant about them not being a real people?

I specified Gaza/Hamas for a reason here, in this thread, and that is what we are talking about.

I do not believe that the lie of a 'Palestinian nation' should be humored, but I did not say to treat the West Bank the same way or represents the same level of threat (at the moment) that Hamas inside Gaza does.

The West Bank should be under the control of either Israel or Jordan, but Hamas doesn't control the West Bank and is not the issue at hand.

And since you don't believe morality is universal, than you believe that morality changes from situation to situation. Nothing is universally right or wrong, but is entirely depending on each instance. Sounds rather convenient doesn't it?

You are again making the mistake of positing all 'morals' are the same and that they are universal across situations and cultures.

This has never been the case, and many cultures would have considered it immoral to leave a threat like Gaza in the way it was for so long, without directly annexing it or leveling it in revenge for the death cult of Hamas's repeated attacks on Israel.

Also, friend/enemy distinction is a moral one, because it is what allows survival against trickery and deceit by people trying to use morals they don't follow against people who do.

So, rather than actually prove your point. You take one particular event, and then give me a list of terrorist attacks. Yes, it was an act of horrific slaughter and terror, but it is one event.

This isn't what I asked for. Either put up, or shut up. I asked for proof, and you tried to pull a fast one.

And really, if Israel is committed to a two-state solution- then why do they continue to expand settlements?

Settlement Expansion in Occupied Palestinian Territory Violates International Law, Must Cease, Many Delegates Tell Security Council | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases

Pointing to ongoing expansion of Israeli settlements, demolition of Palestinian structures, daily violence and continued inflammatory rhetoric by their Government representatives, a senior United Nations official reiterated to the Security Council the Secretary-General’s appeal for an end to the...

press.un.org

Or why do Israeli settlers commit acts of violence against Palestinians, and attempt to push them off their land?

UN reports says West Bank settler violence has displaced over 1,100 Palestinians since 2022

A U.N. report says over 1,100 Palestinians have fled their homes in the West Bank since the start of 2022 due to Israeli settler violence.

apnews.com

3 small Palestinian villages emptied out this summer. Residents blame Israeli settler attacks

United Nations monitors say three small Palestinian herding villages have emptied out over the past four months, with residents blaming mounting violence by Israeli settlers.

apnews.com

Yep, totally committed to the two-state solution.

Again, provide what I am asking for. You made a factual claim and refused to provide actual evidence.

He has already provided proof, you just didn't like it/accept it, because you are on another 'moral highhorse' crusade against people who simply recognize the level of threat Hamas represents and the methods the group has used to turn Gaza into a death cult camp.

"All north koreans should be killed, because they all worship a slaver."

See, you cannot even refute that Hamas and Islamic Jihad effectively control Gaza with the support of most of the population, and that anyone who operates in Gaza has to do so with Hamas's blessing/permission.

Same logic, same lack of morals. You have the moral capacity of a chimp.

And you have the survival instinct of dodo bird, and the tactical acumen of Gildroy Lockheart.

"Just to be sure there are no bad guys, better murder all of the children too"

If the kids are willing/able to use suicide vest, RPGs/ATGMs, and be willing human shields, the become combatants, and if their parents keep them in areas as human shields/teach them to be willing human shields, then yes, you have to kill some of them too.

It's horrible, but that's the nature of the enemy who Israel is dealing with, and the level of societal indoctrination Hamas has accomplished.

Israel has tried the other way for many, many years, and is still putting a lot of people at risk to do things the 'nice' way in Gaza.

Fuck off. You advocate for every war there is. You lust for blood. At least a Neonazi is honest about their evil.

No, you are just a petty and spiteful AnCap who has a pedantic stick up their ass about many things, and doesn't like how I call out your naivety about military and geopolitical affairs.

I'd prefer a peaceful world, it's a lot easier to live in and lot of shit is cheaper; but the enemy gets a vote too, and it seems most of them have voted for war and conflict when the west has attempted peace.

"I'm scum who wants innocent kids to die" -Bacle

This is war, kids die anyway, and I'm not the one who indocs them to become willing human shields and suicide bombers, or who teaches them that every Jew should be killed.

I'd just prefer Hamas be eliminated for good so fewer Israeli kids die in the future.

After all, Israeli's/Jews cried with the US on 9/11, the people in Gaza and the people in Hamas cheered; I haven't forgotten the enemy there to the US, just because you have.

Again, you completely failed to actually address my points: There are innocent people in Gaza. There are Christians, the polling data consistently has them having an under 50% approval, there are babies, etc. You being fine with there death makes you a bad person. You make no difference between good and evil, you just want death because they have the audacity to be victims of Hamas that you don't recognize. Your utter lack of humanity is not surprising. But that's what you do Bacle: you disappoint in everything.

You are forgetting that those Christians still are effectively willing human shields for Hamas if they have remained in Gaza to this point, and that Hamas killed plenty of Jewish babies on Oct 7th.

I simply would not play the game Hamas has wanted, and believe me they wanted Israel to move into Gaza on the ground so they could kill even more Jews/Israelis, and dealt with Hamas like the fucking terrorist scum they are while minimizing risk to IDF/Israeli troops.

Also, I don't give a fuck about your view of me, since you are an AnCap and have shown repeatedly that you care more about being pedantic and petty over stupid shit and try to push your NAP morals on the rest of us.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

No I didn't, I have specified Hamas/Gaza directly in this thread.

Check the search function; before the post you just replied to, I have not used the word Palestinians once in this thread.


I specified Gaza/Hamas for a reason here, in this thread, and that is what we are talking about.

I do not believe that the lie of a 'Palestinian nation' should be humored, but I did not say to treat the West Bank the same way or represents the same level of threat (at the moment) that Hamas inside Gaza does.

The West Bank should be under the control of either Israel or Jordan, but Hamas doesn't control the West Bank and is not the issue at hand.

You are again making the mistake of positing all 'morals' are the same and that they are universal across situations and cultures.

This has never been the case, and many cultures would have considered it immoral to leave a threat like Gaza in the way it was for so long, without directly annexing it or leveling it in revenge for the death cult of Hamas's repeated attacks on Israel.

Also, friend/enemy distinction is a moral one, because it is what allows survival against trickery and deceit by people trying to use morals they don't follow against people who do.

He has already provided proof, you just didn't like it/accept it, because you are on another 'moral highhorse' crusade against people who simply recognize the level of threat Hamas represents and the methods the group has used to turn Gaza into a death cult camp.

See, you cannot even refute that Hamas and Islamic Jihad effectively control Gaza with the support of most of the population, and that anyone who operates in Gaza has to do so with Hamas's blessing/permission.

And you have the survival instinct of dodo bird, and the tactical acumen of Gildroy Lockheart.

If the kids are willing/able to use suicide vest, RPGs/ATGMs, and be willing human shields, the become combatants, and if their parents keep them in areas as human shields/teach them to be willing human shields, then yes, you have to kill some of them too.

It's horrible, but that's the nature of the enemy who Israel is dealing with, and the level of societal indoctrination Hamas has accomplished.

Israel has tried the other way for many, many years, and is still putting a lot of people at risk to do things the 'nice' way in Gaza.

No, you are just a petty and spiteful AnCap who has a pedantic stick up their ass about many things, and doesn't like how I call out your naivety about military and geopolitical affairs.

I'd prefer a peaceful world, it's a lot easier to live in and lot of shit is cheaper; but the enemy gets a vote too, and it seems most of them have voted for war and conflict when the west has attempted peace.

This is war, kids die anyway, and I'm not the one who indocs them to become willing human shields and suicide bombers, or who teaches them that every Jew should be killed.

I'd just prefer Hamas be eliminated for good so fewer Israeli kids die in the future.

After all, Israeli's/Jews cried with the US on 9/11, the people in Gaza and the people in Hamas cheered; I haven't forgotten the enemy there to the US, just because you have.

You are forgetting that those Christians still are effectively willing human shields for Hamas if they have remained in Gaza to this point, and that Hamas killed plenty of Jewish babies on Oct 7th.

I simply would not play the game Hamas has wanted, and believe me they wanted Israel to move into Gaza on the ground so they could kill even more Jews/Israelis, and dealt with Hamas like the fucking terrorist scum they are while minimizing risk to IDF/Israeli troops.

Also, I don't give a fuck about your view of me, since you are an AnCap and have shown repeatedly that you can more about being pedantic and petty over stupid shit and try to push your NAP morals on the rest of us.

Sorry, I mixed you up with Terthna. When you are arguing people tend to blend together.

And he hasn't provided proof, he literally posted two links. That doesn't prove anything, and I even provided examples of what I was looking for, and these examples actually did some of the work for him.

Okay, if it is proof then how does a list of terror attacks which would include non-Palestinian groups, and Hamas being Hamas prove that the Palestinian people as a whole (or even the Gazan civilian populace) wish to commit genocide. Explain your rationale.

 

[Abhorsen]

This is war, kids die anyway, and I'm not the one who indocs them to become willing human shields and suicide bombers, or who teaches them that every Jew should be killed.

You are the one who said you are fine with them all dying, the indoctrinated and non-indoctrinated alike. You made no exception for the many who weren't indoctrinated. When you left woke morality, you apparently forgot you were supposed to grab another morality, not just lose all pretense of morality.

You are forgetting that those Christians still are effectively willing human shields for Hamas if they have remained in Gaza to this point, and that Hamas killed plenty of Jewish babies on Oct 7th.

This is a frankly pathetic argument. Yes, the Christians really want to die for Hamas.


In summary, you have the morals of a Clinton and the insight of our president, so you'll no doubt go far in life. You've no brain, and no soul. You'd fail a turing test.

 

[Terthna]

You made no exception for the many who weren't indoctrinated.

How many do you think aren't indoctrinated? Because I doubt very much it amounts to more than a rounding error.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

How many do you think aren't indoctrinated? Because I doubt very much it amounts to more than a rounding error.

I seriously doubt that, even in Stalinist Russia, Democratic Kampuchea, Nazi Germany, or any of those other states was the social conditioning or indoctrination 100% widespread. People are not hive minds, we are not insects. The fact that you are trying to reduce the people of Gaza to the level of insects disturbs me.

I wouldn't be surprised if large segments of the population disagree, but have no power or voice to change things.

 

[Jormungandr]

I'm honestly fucking laughing at some of the pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli posts in this thread. Seriously.

Yes, Israel isn't exactly innocent and have done some underhanded and nasty shit on their own, but for fuck's sake if you're equivalating a deluded Islamic death-cult with them, then there's something seriously wrong with you.

I'm dipping out for now. This shit is just too funny.

 

[Husky_Khan]

That is the Israeli side to the story, and sure it's possible. But for the sake of the argument... would you support the Russia of 2090 in killing off the future Ukrainians?

If that's the Israeli side of the story, then there's no reason to present a hypothetical for the sake of argument since there's assumedly another side to the story based in actual facts and history, not your tailored hypotheticals.

"Hey that's one side of the history... instead of arguing the other side of the history, lets talk about what Spider-man 2099 would do in the Battle of Endor?"

 

[Bacle]

You are the one who said you are fine with them all dying, the indoctrinated and non-indoctrinated alike. You made no exception for the many who weren't indoctrinated. When you left woke morality, you apparently forgot you were supposed to grab another morality, not just lose all pretense of morality.

Yes, I would be fine with Israel deciding to grid-square Gaza rather than invade, because I put the value of IDF/Jewish lives higher than the value of trying to deprogram a bunch of effective tyke-bombs.

I understand that with some levels of indoc, when started so young and so pervasively, mean that it will likely be impossible to actual deprogram the jihadi/Hamas teachings out of the youth who have yet to be moved from the 'youth leagues' of Hamas up to the main organization.

The babies, those too young to even understand cartoons, might be able to keep from becoming the next gen of jihadi's if they are removed from that environment of living under Hamas rule.

I think the IDF's RoE has been far, far to restrictive, for far, far too long, and that Oct 7th proved it, and that strength and the willingness to use it are what make politics run in the MidEast, not compassion or mercy.

If Israel wanted to truly deter Iran and it's possible nukes, turning Gaza into a parking lot without setting foot in it would be a rather powerful signal that Iran does not want to Fuck Around.

As it is, we will see if Israel trying to play nice here gives them the results they desire, and we may not know that for years.

This is a frankly pathetic argument. Yes, the Christians really want to die for Hamas.

If they have had any option to leave Gaza, and remove themselves from the rule of Hamas or Islamic Jihad, and stayed as a willing human shield in that death cult camp, then they're morons. It's not like Israel is hostile to Christians as a religion; people willingly sheltering Hamas aren't going to get treated differently just because they are Christians who were ok with what was happening under Hamas.

I mean, we have plenty of examples of antisemitic Christians throughout history, and recent history at that.

In summary, you have the morals of a Clinton and the insight of our president, so you'll no doubt go far in life. You've no brain, and no soul. You'd fail a turing test.

No, I'm just not naive enough to fall for the same fart-huffing isolationist thinking of the AnCaps or someone who worships the NAP.

You're like one of those stupid Federation peaceniks who thought that selling out the Maquis to the Cardassians was the 'moral' move.

 

[King Arts]

If they have had any option to leave Gaza, and remove themselves from the rule of Hamas or Islamic Jihad, and stayed as a willing human shield in that death cult camp, then they're morons. It's not like Israel is hostile to Christians as a religion; people willingly sheltering Hamas aren't going to get treated differently just because they are Christians who were ok with what was happening under Hamas.

I mean, we have plenty of examples of antisemitic Christians throughout history, and recent history at that.

Ahh the stupid in this post is amazing.
Hey why don’t you immigrate to another country that’s easy to do legally. Also double ha at Israel being ok with Christianity you don’t know shit about the region or the people there.

 

[King Arts]

If that's the Israeli side of the story, then there's no reason to present a hypothetical for the sake of argument since there's assumedly another side to the story based in actual facts and history, not your tailored hypotheticals.

"Hey that's one side of the history... instead of arguing the other side of the history, lets talk about what Spider-man 2099 would do in the Battle of Endor?"

The Palestinian side is that Jews immigrated to the British mandate and many Jewish terrorists groups attacked Muslims and forced them to leave and stole the land. Truth is somewhere in the middle. It’s irrelevant it happened 70 years ago and it doesn’t deal with the now. IF the Palestinians are right then what does that mean for the present. I said already they should have accepted peace, but it’s not black and white.

 

[Terthna]

You're like one of those stupid Federation peaceniks who thought that selling out the Maquis to the Cardassians was the 'moral' move.

To be fair, what exactly did they expect the Federation to do; go to war with the Cardassians over some nascent colonies when war with the Dominion was on the horizon? Because that ended up happening anyways, thanks in part due to the Maquis' actions helping to drive the Cardassians to ally themselves with the Dominion, and it led to their complete destruction.

 

[mrttao]

The Palestinian side is that Jews immigrated to the British mandate and many Jewish terrorists groups attacked Muslims and forced them to leave and stole the land. Truth is somewhere in the middle. It’s irrelevant it happened 70 years ago and it doesn’t deal with the now. IF the Palestinians are right then what does that mean for the present. I said already they should have accepted peace, but it’s not black and white.

The palestinian side is objectively false and retarded.

Some jews migrated during the british mandate.
Some jews migrated during the ottoman mandate which ruled the area from 1516.
Others were there far before that.

While the ottoman capital was muslim (turkish), they ruled many non muslims as well.
Under ottoman rule the area was home to many different peoples.
Jews, arabs, druzi, beduin, hindus, christians, and many more.

The british disregarded most of those and simplify it into only "jews and arabs". Both of which started terrorist operations to drive the british away.
At which point the UN tried to parcel the land between jews and muslims. Ignoring all other ethnicities.
At which point the 5 surrounding arab nations declared war and exterminate all jews in "muslim lands". That was their words, not mine.
They lost that war, not due to foreign intervention. israel fought that war alone.

They claim then that afterwards that israel "ethnically cleansed" non jews.
Yet, somehow, 30% of israel citizens arab muslims despite the so called ethnic cleansing.
The fact is, that israel just gave citizenship to any conquered arab muslim because they were a bunch of cucks.

The ones who stayed became citizens who are a 5th column to this day.
The ones who ran away... well it depends on country. Some countries absorbed them. Egypt put them in refugee camps where they fought egypt for decades before finally ending up in israel's hands

So, in terms of history, the palestinian claims are bullshit.
However, I think we should look at the now more than the history.
Right now, Israel is a heavily liberal country (and suffers for it) that has been desperately trying for "peace" with the barbarians.
While the palestinians are an overt death cult.

 

[Bacle]

To be fair, what exactly did they expect the Federation to do; go to war with the Cardassians over some nascent colonies when war with the Dominion was on the horizon? Because that ended up happening anyways, thanks in part due to the Maquis' actions helping to drive the Cardassians to ally themselves with the Dominion, and it led to their complete destruction.

You remember why the colonies for the Maquis to begin with; because the Cardies were sponsoring terrorist attacks against the former Federation colonies that were ceded.

The Cardies wanted more than what they got ceded initially, and broke agreements with the settlers/Federation colonists that remained to protect them.

Had the Federation actually stood up for the Maquis and dared the Cardies to start another war over protecting the area, maybe it would have been easier to keep the Klingons from declaring war on the Cardies.

The Federation wanted peace, even with people they knew they couldn't trust and with whom they knew were even more duplicitous than the Romulans, and the entire quadrant paid for it in a war that might have been averted all together if the Federation had stood up for it's people and the agreements they were supposed to be protected under.

Abhorsen reminds of the peaceniks in the Federation who thought the Federation playing nice would avert further bloodshed and that a few 'territorial' concessions would sate the appetite of an enemy. He think words in philosophical texts, legal and court documents/definitions outweigh the brutal, bloody history of this sort of warfare, the long history of what this sort of urban combat entails and the amount of Jewish/IDF lives that will be put at risk to do things in Gaza the 'nice' way.

Abhorsen, like the Federation peaceniks, thinks that isolationism and mercy/compassion are what should drive decision making about conflicts for other groups, mistakenly imagining that the people on the other side think the close to the same way he does. He does not realize strength, and the will to use it, is the only path to what can pass for 'lasting peace' in that portion of the globe. And unlike the Dominion, Hamas's founders/leaders are not shapeshifters who can be pursuaded to end the fighting by getting the cure to a wasting disease, nor can they be ordered to stand down like the Cardies were by Garak and friends.

The tunnels under Gaza are going to be an utter nightmare to clear, even in the best scenario of a ground operation. That is why I do not like the number of troops that will be lost doing this the 'nice' way and would be ok with just levelling the place with artillery.

 

[Terthna]

The tunnels under Gaza are going to be an utter nightmare to clear, even in the best scenario of a ground operation. That is why I do not like the number of troops that will be lost doing this the 'nice' way and would be ok with just levelling the place with artillery.

I don't either, but have you considered the fact that bombings can only do so much? Troops will have to be sent in eventually regardless, and there's a certain point where the only thing artillery can accomplish is making the terrain more difficult to traverse and clear.

 

[Bacle]

I don't either, but have you considered the fact that bombings can only do so much? Troops will have to be sent in eventually regardless, and there's a certain point where the only thing artillery can accomplish is making the terrain more difficult to traverse and clear.

Oh, I'm aware of that, which is why I initially mentioned thermobarics; those are specifically made to deal with tunnels like what we thought Bin Laden was hiding in for so long via a blast wave traveling through the tunnel and burning all the oxygen out.

As well, Israel has some neat foam bombs that can basically seal an entire area of tunnel off with rapidly drying epoxy-like foam and trap/seal/crush anything hostile in it. Plus the regular old JDAMs to use for general destructive work to big for an artillery shell.

If Israel wanted to secure Gaza without moving into it, the only question is how many munitions and drones they'd need to do it and what sort of buffer Egypt would want on their border.

 

[Cherico]

I understand that you and they are enemies. I don’t want to stand in Israel’s way in the fight. What I have a problem with is traitorous people trying to drag western nations that are not Jewish or Muslim into a fight and support one side or the other that does not concern them. This is a fight between Muslims and Jews for which of them can control the holy land. It does not concern anyone but Jews and Muslims.

I think they are americas enemies because they publically sang and danced when 9-11 happened. Thus they are our enemies. To be fair though the Palastinians are pretty much every ones enemies, they back stabed the Jordanians, the egyptians, the Lebonize and pretty much any one who gave them a chance.

In all likely hood their fellow arabs most likely hate them just as much as the Israelis do.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

I think they are americas enemies because they publically sang and danced when 9-11 happened. Thus they are our enemies. To be fair though the Palastinians are pretty much every ones enemies, they back stabed the Jordanians, the egyptians, the Lebonize and pretty much any one who gave them a chance.

In all likely hood their fellow arabs most likely hate them just as much as the Israelis do.

Wouldn't that make 90% of the Arab world your enemies? I distinctly remember merry jigs all over the Islamic World.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

A lot of the posts here are just a tragic rerun of the Ukraine shit show where so many talking heads made fools of themselves. Covid drove you mad, you picked up an adversarial mindset and strong cognitive bias without your brain bothering to tell you, and now you are projecting that baggage onto a conflict which doesn’t have much to do with what twisted your brain in the first place.

So strong is that distrust that you are seeking out nuance in situation where there isn’t all that much, making you helplessly susceptible to the aggressor’s propaganda. It’s sad to see and I expected better.

Conspiracy theories, people. Not. Even. Once.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

>People in power bring in anti-jewish cultists en masse on purpose
>They do what they do best
>People in power: "Why would bigots do this?..."

Bioleninists are always surprised when their pets turn on them.

 

[mrttao]

A lot of the posts here are just a tragic rerun of the Ukraine shit show where so many talking heads made fools of themselves. Covid drove you mad, you picked up an adversarial mindset and strong cognitive bias without your brain bothering to tell you, and now you are projecting that baggage onto a conflict which doesn’t have much to do with what twisted your brain in the first place.

So strong is that distrust that you are seeking out nuance in situation where there isn’t all that much, making you helplessly susceptible to the aggressor’s propaganda. It’s sad to see and I expected better.

Conspiracy theories, people. Not. Even. Once.

You were doing so well until that idiocy in the end.
90% of conspiracy theories turned out to be proven fact in the past decade or so.
Yes, some conspiracy theories are indeed utter fucking nonsense.
But a disgusting number of them turns out to be true due to how stupidly gullible people are nowadays